Hive question

[pbuhler]

I have a 2 deep,10 frame hive that was re-queened 3 weeks ago due to a lost or non laying queen . I've been watching the top box and the new queen has been laying nicely, and the frames look well developed with brood in the center surrounded by pollen and honey (capped and uncapped). There are 8 of the ten frames being worked.

Today I looked into the bottom box, and there is very little going on - cells are clean and 8 of ten frames are drawn. Some cells are being filled with pollen, but no honey, eggs or brood.

Now my question: Will the queen move down since the upper box is getting full, or should I switch boxes, or do something else?

I'm feeding in preparation for winter - the hive (bottom board, 2 deeps and covers) weighs 100 lbs+/-. Thanks for any advice. Paul

[devdog108]

She wil;l move down when she is ready or runs out o room. Mine did the same thing once she ran out of room. You could switch boxes around and she will move up> One thing i did notice with mine. She was placing eggs and I couldn't see tham. I freaked out but didnt do anything just yet. I went back a day or so later and she had filled ENTIRE frames full of eggs....i guess I hadn't seen them...lolol.

[DRUR]

I am assuming 2 deeps is sufficient to winter in your area, Check with local beeks, Texas is going to be a lot different than Vermont.

Italians are bad about having an open brood nest, and in many instances they do not contract the brood area in preparation for winter. They will continue to make bees until they use up all their honey and then starve to death. Therefore, you must force the brood nest to contract to an area no larger than about 3 frames.

If there is not natural flow of nectar to do this then I would advise that you continue feeding until the brood nest is contracted to no more than 3 frames (deep). If you only had 2 deeps, contraction of the brood area to 3 frames would give you about 100# of honey/pollen, which is what I try to shoot for in Texas, but check with local beeks for your needs.

[pbuhler]

Thanks for the responses.
DRUR: In re-reading my post. I see that I may have been unclear - I have 10 frame deep brood boxes making a 20 frame hive. At a seminar I recently attended, it was recommended that the hive, including the woodwork should weigh between 155 and 165 lbs going into the winter around here. I weighed some empty equipment and it weighed in at 35 lbs, so having 120 +/- lbs of bees, pollen, and honey sounds reasonable for my zone 3 (-20F) winter temps.

Devdog, I hope you're right and she moves down - I'll give her a few more days - the weather's good and the bees are bringing in the pollen and nectar so the hive's building up. I can take a wait and see approach for a few days anyway. Thanks.

[Ski]

pbuhler,
DO you have any capped stores?
If not I would be feeding and as the bees back fill the top box with stores the queen would have to move down to lay, but maybe I am missing something.

[SwedeBee1970]

Suggestion: Why not replace the bottom brood super (empty) frames/foundation with the empty frames of shorter honey super frames/foundation ? This should make a 3-4" gap between the bees and the hive stand for winter and limit the queens egg laying near the hive entrance, in theory.

[pbuhler]

Ski: The top box has quite a bit of capped honey and your hypothesis sounds reasonable - will the queen move down, or will she stop laying?

Swede: I could do as you suggest - have you done this before and if so, what were your results?

Thanks to you both. Paul

[Ski]

pbuhler,
Of the 120 lbs of bees pollen and honey how much honey do you have frame wise. I would think but don't know about VT that you would need 60-70 lbs of honey to get through the winter. The queen will slow or may stop when the temperatures drop and they cluster which is around 47 degrees F. Until that time I would be feeding to get the 70 lbs or whatever is needed in VT. But as they fill or back fill the queen will move down.

HOWEVER, there is nothing wrong with switching boxes.

I have done both let them do what they do but make sure they have stores and I have also switched boxes, both could work. There are no guarantees this is beekeeping lol.

[DRUR]

DRUR: I have 10 frame deep brood boxes making a 20 frame hive. At a seminar I recently attended, it was recommended that the hive, including the woodwork should weigh between 155 and 165 lbs going into the winter around here. I weighed some empty equipment and it weighed in at 35 lbs, so having 120 +/- lbs of bees, pollen, and honey sounds reasonable for my zone 3 (-20F) winter temps.

If you only have two deeps and you need 120# of honey/pollen (and this sounds about right for your area to me), then you will need either 3 deeps, or two deeps and a medium. Sorry, I confused your post with another one asking similar questions, my mistake. And, you need to feed (if the fall flow is about over) until you have all but 3 deep frames in the brood area backfilled with honey/pollen (and not bees and brood). These 3 frames will then serve as your cluster/broodnest for the wintertime. As winter progresses, the bees will move the cluster lateral/and up as they exhaust the stores, opening up more brood area for the next spring. Hope this makes some sense.

You might also pm "Michael Palmer" and get advice from him. He is from Vermont and always post good logical answers. Also here is a thread that he recently responded to concerning colony weights. http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233859

Keep asking questions until you understand what you need to do, especially from experienced beeks in your area like Michael Palmer. Also ask Michael Palmer about the consequences of wintering with 3 deeps vs. 2 deeps and a medium for your area.

[SwedeBee1970]

PBuhler,

I've never tried those techniques, that's why I said, "Theory". It just sounds good to cause a natural reaction like switching the frame sizes rather than the boxes to create clearance. I'd want a bit of space between my family and the door to outside cold, wouldn't anyone ?

From other sources, The Russian queens quite often keep laying eggs throughout winter, however in much smaller quantities. They regulate the food/brood based on the winter conditions. Not sure whether other varieties do the same, but I'm told not. I guess, keeping an eye on them is your best option, just an eye. They should be able to care for themselves without our help.

[DRUR]

Suggestion: Why not replace the bottom brood super (empty) frames/foundation with the empty frames of shorter honey super frames/foundation ? This should make a 3-4" gap between the bees and the hive stand for winter and limit the queens egg laying near the hive entrance, in theory.

I would not do this. The bees could start building comb in the 3-4" gap and you will have a mess. The queen/colony will decide where to make the winter cluster. They have been doing this for 6,000 years. Have you got this much experience?:rolleyes:

[DRUR]

At a seminar I recently attended, it was recommended that the hive, including the woodwork should weigh between 155 and 165 lbs going into the winter around here.

You will be hard pressed to get this much weight out of a 2 deep colony. A deep box full of capped "honey" will weigh about 85#, with 60# of that being honey. But pollen does not weigh anywhere near what honey does and you should have several frames of pollen/honey/beebread. They will need primarily honey to winter on (for energy/heat generation) but also several frames of pollen (at least that is what I strive for here in Texas).

[SwedeBee1970]

DRUR,

So nice of you to degrade me. Thanks.

Hence the term: "Suggestion"

Merely a suggestion and nothing more.

[DRUR]

DRUR, So nice of you to degrade me.

SwedeBee1970: It was not my intention of degrading you, and if I did so I sincerely pray your forgiveness. I was just trying to give the consequences of dropping medium frames in deep boxes. The 6,000 year reference was meant to be dry humor. My sincere apology.

Kindest regards

[SwedeBee1970]

None taken. Just need a better choice of words.

I see your point, however, question whether or not the workers would build extra comb during the cold months that the short frames would be applied to a brood chamber.

I'm not familiar with the zoning from 7-10 as far as winter cycles if much at all.

Does anyone else know or tried this before ?

[pbuhler]

Thanks for all the shared info. I've been feeding, and the weather's been good but cool. I'll check the lower box this weekend to see what's happening; has the queen moved down, and has the sugar been added to upper or lower frames. From there I'll make a decision - at this point I'm inclined to leave the bees alone. The upper box looked well organized allowing for a central cluster with close access to honey and pollen. In the remaining time before winter, they have drawn comb for stores and /or brood if they need it in the lower box.

The 155 lb hive mentioned was 2 deeps and a medium super - I don't think I'll get a medium super to fill this late, but we'll see, and since the hive already weighs 100 lbs, with feeding, I should be able to get a pretty good amount of food close to the cluster. The bees have been bringing in a lot of pollen.

It has been easier raising my kids than deciding what to do with the "girls".:scratch: