Question: No eggs...no larvae. Weather or queen?

[NC-Bee-Dude]

Okay, so I go into my hive today because I wanted to swap out hive-top feeders, and check around some since I added a second deep box on top of the brood box.

In one week, the bees had started building comb on the frames around the honey frames I transferred from the bottom deep, and those were filled with nectar. They did lots of work in just one week's time and was pretty proud of them.

I decided to check the bottom and it was slam-packed with bees. And they were in a pretty good mood too, a tad testy at times, but overall, okay.

While inspecting the lower brood box, I did not find the queen, which isn't unusual -- usually I find new eggs and larvae. And while I saw what I thought were eggs a week ago, I saw no eggs today (I examined every frame) -- and no larvae either. A lot of the capped brood that was there last week had evidently hatched -- but again, no eggs and larvae. I did see quite a bit of nectar and pollen in cells too, and honey too on some frames, but not a lot of brood rearing.

Since it is August, we've had a lot of hot days, but we've had some cool nights and even a few cool days (upper 70s) with low humidity this past week. One newbie beekeeper told me that maybe since it is so late in the season now, the queen may have slowed down drastically or stopped laying in this cooler weather snap. I guess that could be true, but I'm worried that maybe something has happened to her -- or worse, maybe they're planning to swarm.

I'm a little perplexed by this latest development. Last week I felt great about things, but this latest observation has me worried that something is wrong. In case it matters, the mood of the bees -- again -- was really good, sometimes testy when I would pick up frames, but overall okay. I know that if they're queenless, they can become aggressive, so I wonder if she's still there and just stopped laying.

By the way, no swarm cells and no supercedure cells anywhere.

HELP! :cry:

Mark

[Beeslave]

Welcome to beekeeping.

[BeeAware]

I think a swarm this time of year is very unlikley unless hive conditions just become too congested. I'd check back in a couple of days and if no queen, eggs or larvae are found, I would order a new queen. You don't want them to dwindle too much this time of the year.

[NC-Bee-Dude]

I think a swarm this time of year is very unlikley unless hive conditions just become too congested. I'd check back in a couple of days and if no queen, eggs or larvae are found, I would order a new queen. You don't want them to dwindle too much this time of the year.

Okay, I can do that if necessary. Luckily the apiary I deal with is just an hours drive from here. I guess my concern would be introducing a queen into the hive if one is already there and I just can't find her. So if I still can't find eggs or larvae in say, three days...put a new queen in anyway?

[Dragonfly130]

And while I saw what I thought were eggs a week ago, I saw no eggs today (I examined every frame) -- and no larvae either.


Worker larvae takes about 21 days to emerge. A new queen takes 14 days. Assuming your old queen died somehow a replacement queen may be in the colony and just not laying yet.Adding a new queen could result in her demise if you've got a virgin or recently bred queen in there.


The gold standard for testing for a queenless colony seems to be adding a frame of eggs and young larvae from another colony if you have one.Hopefully you do as it's difficult at best to manage only one colony.If they draw queen cells on the added frame you don't have a queen and it's safe to add a new queen.If they don't pull queen cells you already have one in there just not laying yet or shut down laying.


If you don't have another colony to donate a frame of eggs you have two choices.Take your chances losing a new queen (how much is it worth to you to make absolutely certain this colony survives) or just wait it out and see if you've got a new queen.You said you changed out hive top feeders. I'm assuming you are feeding and queens shutting down laying while the colonies are being fed, is not likely and most likely they raised an emergency queen or superceded.


My thinking is you've got a young queen in there that just hasn't gotten to laying yet.My advice is to wait it out.The odds of a truly queenless colony for me have been very low.Your the keeper here though and it's your call.



So if I still can't find eggs or larvae in say, three days...put a new queen in anyway?


A newly hatched queen can take up to three weeks to start laying according to some on here and since you have no more larvae hatching a newly raised queen should be laying in two more weeks at most.


Hope this help's!

[wcubed]

Patience, patience.
A natural swarm supersedes automatically as a precautionary measure as they approach establishment. That trait often carries over to other starter colonies, such as packages or nucs.

Depending on how obnoxious the queen is about taking out the potential competition, they can terminate her at any point in the process. They are not going to let her interfere. She's expendable.

Queen-rearing structures can be "torn down" rather quickly. I don't believe that it is a deliberate action. Sometimes, they are obvious for a month. I suspect that they are just a handy source of wax when needed elsewhere. Consider this: If the Q cells were torn down deliberately, what would they do with the wax? They don't waste resources.

Walt (The crackpot variety)

[Terry Small, Jr]

In case it matters, the mood of the bees -- again -- was really good


There are some specific things to look for if you suspect a queenless hive. One is what I've heard described as a 'dissonant roar'. It's a good description. It's more than just the sound of mass fanning that you might hear on a hot day. I don't think I can really describe it, but once you hear it you know it's something different.

Another is that the bees will be 'runny' on the frames as you inspect them. Rather than acting like bees on other frames you've seen, they'll be running around in a kinda confused way, as if they don't know what to do.

[wcubed]

Dragonfly:
What are you doing up at this time of the night? You posted while I was fumbling with my keyboard. Good advice!
Walt

[Dragonfly130]

What are you doing up at this time of the night?

I work night's(truck driver) and usually get to bed around 6am.

Probably only posted ahead of you because I got started sooner.:)

[NC-Bee-Dude]

There are some specific things to look for if you suspect a queenless hive. Another is that the bees will be 'runny' on the frames as you inspect them. Rather than acting like bees on other frames you've seen, they'll be running around in a kinda confused way, as if they don't know what to do.

This happened on a couple, maybe three frames. When I pulled the frames out -- it was like the bees roared, and started running all over the frame, sort of confused, almost like the wind blew them and they started scurrying all around, but there was no wind. I'd never seen that before. I thought maybe I was breathing on them or something, but that was not the case.

By the way, I only have one hive...so I can't pull a frame from another hive so that they can rear their own. Wish I did.


You said you changed out hive top feeders. I'm assuming you are feeding and queens shutting down laying while the colonies are being fed is not likely and most likely they raised an emergency queen or superceded.

Dragonfly130: Thanks for the advice. Yes, I am feeding them still, 1/1 syrup until next month. I'm not inclined to believe that they superceded because I've check this colony every one to two weeks (just hived them June 4th) and I never saw queen cells anywhere. I was just in this box a week ago and there was larvae in cells and I thought I saw oodles of eggs too, course may have been my eyes playing tricks. The queen I had was excellent, great brood patterns on the frames and she really brought this colony back from the dead -- until now.

By the way, a lot of the comb I saw has clear nectar, top and lower deeps, and looked like pollen of varying colors. Capped honey too, but lots of nectar. And there were empty cells for eggs, but they were all empty.

I'm perplexed.

[Terry Small, Jr]

Hmmm...

Just my opinion, but I'm thinking it's time to get a new queen ordered. It's hard to say without seeing my own eyes. Knowing that my own eyes are not infallible, I'd err on the safe side.

[NC-Bee-Dude]

SHE'S THERE! I FOUND THE QUEEN! :applause:

Okay guys, good news if you can't tell already. I decided to have another go at it to see if I could find eggs or larvae or the queen -- anything to indicate that she is there or was there and maybe I missed something. So I fired up the smoker and went to work.

I took off the top brood box and decided to concentrate on the second one and then work my way up. The bees were fine, a little testy on the second or third frame in the bottom deep, but overall okay, much like yesterday.

I got to the sixth frame -- still no capped brood or visible eggs (even with my reading glasses). Then I saw something green scurry to the bottom of the frame. It was the queen, her green dot and long body moving, and the girls getting out of her way. She went under the frame and to the other side, looking healthy and like the day I got her in June, and so I gently put the frame she was on back in its place, and I put the hive back together. If I could have gotten away with it, I would have let out a big YEE-HAW, but doing that in a full bee suit, I am sure the neighbors would think I was under attack.

So with that, what I am wondering is this; Since she is alive and well, and since we've had a few cooler days and nights recently, do you think that she's shutting down production to prep for the fall? Even though it is still warm and humid here (to us humans) -- do you think her internal clock is telling her to slow down or stop to thin the hive out for the winter?

I checked and they're making honey just fine, no supercedure or swarm cells, and she has plenty of places to lay eggs. It appears that she just isn't for some reason.

Okay, put your thinking caps on and help me think this through...

All help is most appreciated!

Mark

UPDATE AT 5:45PM -- Now the hive is taking what appears to be orientation flights. They are crawling up the front, taking off, flying round-and-round...then heading back for the hive. Maybe cleansing flights, who knows. This is one crazy hive lately. I'm going to Arby's for a big roast beef to think about it!

[dvwilson]

I live about 12 miles north of Chapel Hill, so a little south compared to your location. My trials with a new single hive are documented in my thread "What's Wrong?" I had a poorly laying queen and then a laying worker. I was advised to wait before replacing the queen because I had some queen cells. My existing bees were aging with no new brood. When I finally bit the bullet and replaced the queen I was able to purchase a frame of good brood for about $20. It was a good investment as I now have capped brood on my other frames and the hive seems much calmer. Next spring I plan to add a second hive. Having no brood from a second hive of my own was a real problem, but the apiary was sympathetic and helped me out with a frame. Hindsight is 20/20, but if I had to do it over again I would have added another queen sooner rather than later. I don't know if the laying worker was a hive reaction to the poorly laying queen, but that was a real problem. I kept waiting for a new queen to develop from one of the supercedure cells, but I wonder if the queen cells were built on non-fertile eggs produced by the laying worker. Hope this helps.

Debbie

[Beeslave]

You are feeding the bees, you seen the queen, and there are no eggs or larvae. I would have to give the educated( somewhat) guess that she has failed but since she is still in there her pheremones have the rest of the hive thinking they are fine. This time of year is to early for a queen to shut down and when she does I don't believe she shuts down totally until late fall unless she runs out of room to lay in.

[wcubed]

Debbie:
I was one of those who advised you to wait it out. Most of my judgements are made on what MOST colonies do MOST of the time. There are of course exceptions. (genetic variation) Had a seasoned beek tell me years ago that he had seen drones reared in queen cells. Sceptical, because it's way off normal, still can't say it's not possible. Never say never or always when bees are the subject.

Mark:
Would like to revise my earlier input, and throw in with Beeslave. It's still possible to have a virgin Q at the same time as the old Q - that's called an efficient supersedure, but your inspection timing would seem to preclude that - saw no Q cells.

At mid August your colony should be expanding the the brood nest to rear fall bees for wintering. They sometimes nearly shut down in mid summer to reduce population overrun. But it's time to turn that around, and Madam Green is not playing by the rules. Pinch her and install a replacement.

Walt

[NC-Bee-Dude]

Mark: But it's time to turn that around, and Madam Green is not playing by the rules. Pinch her and install a replacement. Walt

Walt, thanks for the input, and from Beeslave too. I'm still new to all this but something told me today, when I saw all those cells and no eggs, that she was failing me early. The hive is doing well, she's been a great worker, but something (I believe internally) caused her to shut down. The queen looked healthy enough today, didn't see any indications that she was injured, so it has me perplexed.

I think you guys are probably right, its time to requeen. The apiary in Carrboro NC will be open Monday, its an hour from me, so I think I'll order and pick her up Monday.

This will be the first time I've had to replace a living queen. I hate to do it. But I've spent a bit to keep this colony going and can't stop now. Its really frustrating.

[wcubed]

A word of caution. Give her the benefit of doubt and make that "one last check." On occasion, that one last check has made it obvious that my corrective action was a bit premature. That's why I push patience. Note that she is not in control - the workers decide where and when eggs are needed.
Walt

[NC-Bee-Dude]

A word of caution. Give her the benefit of doubt and make that "one last check." On occasion, that one last check has made it obvious that my corrective action was a bit premature. That's why I push patience. Note that she is not in control - the workers decide where and when eggs are needed. Walt

Think if I waited until maybe Tuesday or Wednesday, then re-inspect, and no eggs -- then requeen? Think I would be safe until then? I don't suppose some disaster will happen between now and then. But do you think that will be okay?

[dvwilson]

Hi All: The apiary that helped me out was "Busy Bee" in Chapel Hill -- right off 40 -- probably 15 minutes closer to NC Beedude than Carrboro. They also sold me the frame of brood. I think the laying worker was the culprit in my hive as I had multiple supercedure cells with no visible new queen or eggs over a period of six weeks; therefore no young house bees to draw comb, etc. Since I have not spotted the new marked queen yet, it is entirely possible that the new laying is being done by a hive-raised queen that found her way back to the hive after the dump and if I had waited it out I would have been OK. As multiple thread posts advise, it's not the perceived presence or absence of a queen that is crucial -- it's who is or is not producing new brood. All you can do is take in all the advice, then do what you think is best for YOUR hive. Every opinion has helped increased my scant base of knowledge. -- Debbie

[NC-Bee-Dude]

Hi All: The apiary that helped me out was "Busy Bee" in Chapel Hill -- right off 40 -- probably 15 minutes closer to NC Beedude than Carrboro. Debbie

Hey Debbie: Busy Bee sold me the queen I have and the two frames of brood for build up my hive. Jack, Betsy and Shelley are the greatest! :) I guess I call it Carrboro because it says that on my receipt, but its really closer to Chapel Hill, and a straight shot down I-40 for me. With you in Efland, I'm jealous. You have a Smithfield Chicken & Barbecue at exit 153 in Mebane. I always stop there when I go to Busy Bee!

I am going to wait until Tuesday or Wednesday and check the hive again. If I don't see eggs or larvae, I think I'll call Betsy and re-order a queen...drive down and get her, then stop at Smithfield's on the way home for BBQ to-go!

[dvwilson]

Glad to know I hadn't missed the presence of a Carrboro apiary. I actually took some digital pictures of my frames and took my laptop in for Jack and Betsy to look at, plus the various opinions I had from Beesource. Betsy walked me through the hive dumping process that got rid of the laying worker.

I would also recommend the Blue Ribbon Diner at Exit 154 if you fancy a change from Smithfields. Good luck.

Debbie

[wcubed]

Mark:
When is your call.

Debbie:
I would guess your assessment of events is correct.

Both:
Lived in Cary for a year - across the road from the State campus. Will say this much for your area: When they coined the words "southern hospitality", they were talking about your area of NC.

Walt