drawing foundationless frames

[kwest]

I have started to go with foundationless frames in mediums. there is nothing more exciting than checking a hive and seeing the unbelivable amount of comb that they can draw on thier own. my bees are drawing the foundationless much faster than they drew out the ritecell coated with wax.

I have discovered that you need to put a drawn frame beside the new foundationless frames to get them to start drawing it. My bees didn't touch the frames until i moved up a frame for them. Does anyone have some input on how long you need to leave this frame (ladder) that was moved up before you can lower it. I lowered the frame once a foundationless frame was 3/4 of the way drawn. they totally quit building on the foundationless. i am guessing i need to leave it until the frame is completly drawn. My issue is i am moving up a deep frame to a medium box to get them to move up so i hate to leave it longer than i have to.

[RayMarler]

You'll need to leave it until they get one all the way drawn, it's their ladder up from the box below. This is my thinking.

[SlickMick]

I can't say that I know as I am just starting foundationless but I would think a frame of foundation in the middle might do the same thing. At least this is what I am going to try as I add supers

Mick

[Morris]

K west,

Make sure the hive is level. If not, the comb may start at the top bar but not wind up at the bottom bar.

I went foundationless in the hives I want to raise queens in. Apparently there are sub lethal chemicals in foundation that can effect developing queens.

What is your reason for going this route?

Morris

[MWillard]

I had done the same thing to encourage new foundation to be built out. I put a fully drawn frame in the middle of empty frames, and they will start to built out on the neighboring frames. I leave the fully drawn frame in until they have fully drawn out the ones on either side. It definately helps!

You're in a pickle with the varied sizes on the frames. Not sure what to tell you on that one, except I hope they draw out the neighboring frames quickly so you don't end up with comb where you don't want it. :)

Good luck.

[11x]

when i get a super 80-90% drawen i take and move the undrawen frames to the middle in a checker board pattern. drawn, foundation,drawn, foundation and so on. and then i move 2 frames up in slot # 4 & 6. may not be the best solution but it has worked well for me.

[gmcharlie]

Bees are abit odd, I switched this year also, (20 hives, 1/2 my total).... some needed the "ladder" most didn't.....95% drew it out just fine with no foundation whatsoever.... All my top bars do fine with no foundation "ladder" that said I wold let them finish a frame or two...

Another not, you will notice with foundationless, they tend to not attach to teh sides and bottom.... I have found destrying a few cells on the bottom will help this, a lot of the time when they do the repair they will attach. Particularly if you cut a bit loose and make it touch.

makes handeling the frame easier when its attached.

[beyondthesidewalks]

I'm still new to the foundationless approach. All of my new hives are foundationless. I pull the worst looking frame from all of my old hives every year and introduce a foundationless frame in its place. My plan is to continue this process until all my frames are foundationless.

My first attempt with foundationless was to put a strip of SC foundation in the top bar to get the bees started. That's worked fine but requires the introduction of foreign wax into the hive, something I'm trying to get away from. My next attempt was to insert the wedge on it's side and staple it on the top bar that way. That's also worked well.

I found a video of a fellow in LA, something like backwards beekeeping, and he actually uses a brush to apply melted beeswax to the strip that he inserts in the top bar. I think he uses paint stirrers or popsicle sticks. I have some of my own wax and I'd like to expirament with this approach.

I intend to try making some 3/4" strips from 1X boards on my tablesaw to insert the the top bar. One of the problems that I have with foundationless has been the bees are slow to attach the comb to the bottom of the frame. Then if I open the hive on a hot day I have to be very careful with the frame. The comb is warm and wants to bend out of the frame unless I keep the frame vertical at all times. I have an idea to insert a strip down the middle of the frame from the top bar down to the bottom bar. I'll put a strip on either side of the vertical strip in the groove of the top bar. This will give strength to the comb in the frame. I don't know how the bees will take to it but I want to expirament with it. I also want to try some with my own wax and some without to see if it really helps the bees draw it out.

So far, I haven't gone through any of the pains that y'all have to get the foundationless frames drawn. My bees have taken to it very readily. I haven't done any baiting or encouraging other than feeding 1:1 syrup to get them building comb on foundationless frames.

As for keeping a hive level, I can attest that it's very important. Here in the Texas blackland prairie we have a gumbo black clay that heaves worst than frozen ground up north. When it rains the clay swells. When it dries out it shrinks and makes cracks as big as 4" wide and 6' deep. I joke with my kids that they should wave to the Chinaman. Anyway, keeping a heavy hive level on this clay can be a challenge. This year has been one of the worst. We had a bunch of rain early on but now we're very dry. I have to level my hives when they get a little lighter.

If you have any insight on my ideas, please share.

[kwest]

i went foundtionless because its cheaper. also more natural. my plan is to regress my bees and get all of my boxes to meduims. i have a real mess now with the equipment i inherited. i have 4 hives with deeps, westerns and now a few mediums. I cant wait to get everything to the same size. It has been a battle when i split hives or add a frame of brood to a weak hive. or when i go foundationless. but i guess i am figuring it out slowly. better downsizing hive boxes now than when i have 20. I guess i jumped the gun when i lowered the drawn frame down so quickley. they had a huge foudationless comb drawn in the extra space tied to the bottom of the frame i raised up. i cut it off and tied it in a foundationless frame like a cut out.
thanks for the help guys.:thumbsup:

[gmcharlie]

I intend to try making some 3/4" strips from 1X boards on my tablesaw to insert the the top bar. One of the problems that I have with foundationless has been the bees are slow to attach the comb to the bottom of the frame. Then if I open the hive on a hot day I have to be very careful with the frame. .



1. no need for the fancy strips.... usea wedge type top bar and throw the wedge away. its the 1/4 high 90degree strip works perfectly.....(the cut portion).... its lazy and works...... The bees actually attach better than they do to a strip...

2. As mentioned above, when they don't attach at the bottom, damage the comb, preferably pull a few cells down to the bottom bar in a cpl places. usually when they repair it the will attach...

Some times have to do it a cpl times...

I have about 500 foundationless frames and none have a giude of any sort, and most are now attached at least a little on the bottom.

[RayMarler]

Try this to get them to attach the comb to the bottom frame:
When the comb is down close to the bottom bar but they wont attach it, cut off a strip of the comb off the bottom and using melted wax, move it down and glue it to the bottom bar. This leaves a space between the new comb on the bottom bar and the main comb in the frame which they will repair and fill in. This way your comb is attached all the way across on the bottom bar.

[Morris]

Beyond, You can add strength to the comb by wiring the frame before placing the frame into the hive. Bees will incorporate the wire into the new comb.