Microbes in Nutrition

[Keith Jarrett]

Ok... would sombody please come foward with this easy answer????
lol....

How do we get a balance of microbial community within the hive.

I feel this is our most unanswer question in the beekeeping industry today and the answer to nosema and a few others problems were all having.

[cow pollinater]

Ok... would sombody please come foward with this easy answer????
lol....

Could the easy answer possibly lie in your pollen patties???:D


Corrective treatment for microbial activity has done amazing things to dairy cattle, specifically cattle that receive antibiotic therapy(terramycin anyone?). It is an often overlooked area of health as it cannot be seen by the naked eye.
I got into bees thinking that genetics and correct nutrition were the two most underutalised tools in the trade. I've seen what having the correct combination of both can do to animals. It is the difference between thrive and just survive.

[Keith Jarrett]

Could the easy answer possibly lie in your pollen patties???:D
It is the difference between thrive and just survive.

You know CP, I call the surviving stock, are the beekeepers that buy bees from the thriving stock. lol... thats for the boys in sc Texas. :)

But, I do strongly believe that Nutrition plays a major... major role.

It seems in the bee industry that we trail all ag fields in the nutrition field. Why are we as an industry so far behind? :(

[Ben Brewcat]

It seems in the bee industry that we trail all ag fields in the nutrition field. Why are we as an industry so far behind? :(

I suspect it's because much of the "feeding" that bees do is on their own and beyond our control, rather than pasturing feedlot-ing and baled feed that is the bulk of intake for other types of livestock.

In other animals, humans included, a "balanced" gut flora varies hugely based on diet, health, age, environment and a lot of other factors. An example is the recommendation to NOT clean a baby's pacifier by putting it in your mouth... if you don't do this, the inoculation with tooth decay organisms can be delayed by years. If you routinely bite through fishing line, you'll not only wear a groove in your tooth but be exposed to different microorganisms than someone who does not.

I would speculate that is bees forage on varied sources, have an underlying adequate nutritive base and are not exposed (deliberately or incidentally) to substances that degrade gut flora, they should be in good shape. But it will be different than a colony a county or a state away.

[Keith Jarrett]

I suspect it's because much of the "feeding" that bees do is on their own and beyond our control,

Ben, that is so very true, But how about when it come to feeds, we know very little what we actually need other than proteins,fats, pH level & were still learning that part.

What about Antibiotic's that CP mentioned, or fumagilin that could wipeout any progress that we made, and the part that is frustrating we don't really know how to counter or off set one to the other.

[Tom G. Laury]

Well as far as I know microbial action is mostly important for digestion. Pollen grains are micro encapsulated and apparently highly resistant to degradation. We know ABs can eliminate digestive bacteria in humans. In ag environments limited pollen sources is the norm.

We are fortunate to have guys like Keith and Randy asking questions and seeking answers.

[Keith Jarrett]

Thanks for the kind words Tom, but I'm like everyone else in the crowd with more questions than answers.

I've just got back from the lab some 20% protein & 8% fat level sub that i'm going to try in some hives. Is this a good mix? I haven't got a clue, I wish we knew more.

It's like adding 3.5 quarts oil to a motor that needs 10.

[Tom G. Laury]

The Answer or the Question? :thumbsup:

[pahvantpiper]

With our cows (my brothers and I own a dairy) we put microbes directly into the feed ration and it's really helped. Of course we have a nutritionist that formulates our ration for us. He tests all of our forages, looks at the health of the cows - too fat too skinny - what their crap looks like, how much milk they're giving and butterfat in the milk along with a few other things. He builds a ration that is most cost effective and healthy but still pushes the cows to produce as much milk as possible. Many nutritionists have a PHD in Bovine nutrition.

I've been wondering with bees, Why couldn't one take some encapsulated pollen from a healthy, strong hive that's brought in a variety of pollens. Test it for protien levels, amino acid profile, fats, carbohydrates, microbes, vitamins and minerals and whatever else is in it. Then take what's available for bee feed - egg yolk powder, soy, brewers yeast, skim milk power, or any other protien supplement sold and formulate a ration as close as possible to what the bees make themselves. It must be harder than it sounds or more beekeepers would be doing it.

[rainesridgefarm]

Do we dare to try the commercial probiotics on the market to see effects? There is one for cows, pigs, chickens, humans, goats, sheep and every other livestock. We are playing with different mite controls, oils and acids why not probiotics?

[alpha6]

Keith,

Great question. Some studies are already being done on microbes and their benefits to bees, but not enough. (See link below on research titled "Microbes Help Bees Battle Chalkbrood") I personally think we should concentrate more on keeping bees healthy and better innovative and more natural ways of battling the problems in our hives then wasting tens of millions on "finding the cause of CCD". I won't even get off on a tangent about CCD and the "community" ignoring the obvious...that can wait for another time.

As far as microbes I think there is some real progress that can be made if we understand how they work better to maintain healthy hives and things we can do to advance good microbe development in the hives and not work against nature and our bees by dumping things we THINK may be good for the hives but are actually working against the bees. I plan to do more research into the topic and will post any info I can find. The smarter we can get on these subjects the better I think we (beeks) will be at managing our hives.

"Gilliam's research has shown that some of the microbes live amiably in bees' intestines and help with digestion. Others cause pollen grains --carefully packed into the comb cells by worker bees --to ferment and form beebread that nourishes the colony's brood and young bees. Some microbes act as food preservatives and keep the beebread from spoiling in the hive.

And Gilliam's investigations have revealed that microbes such as certain Penicillium, Aspergillus, and Bacillus organisms apparently produce compounds that inhibit growth of chalkbrood-causing fungal spores."

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/aug98/bees0898.htm

[BEES4U]

But, I do strongly believe that Nutrition plays a major... major role.

It sure does!
I read a paper provided by the Australian Ministry of Agriculture, bees, and it stated that they were adding stud horse conditioner to pollen and pollen substitute patties.
I had a class in animal nutrition, FEEDS and FEEDING, and our required text was MORRISON'S FEEDS and FEEDING.
It listed all of the known standards for balancing rations for the different weight classes of animals.
When I have a plant analysed by the Fruit Growers lab in Santa Paula they ask me by what standards of comparison I wanted reported because the test results are run against known data. I was growing some California natives and they did not have any data. So, I thought about it and asked them to run it against a tomatoe plant at the same physiological development. Bingo, I found out that they were very low in nitrogen.
I fertilized them with a balanced fertilizer and the plants thrived!
Now, here is the kicker, all of the data that I could glean from the web kept saying to limit the fertilizer!
I am tempted to submit to the lab a sample of bees from an apparently healthy hive just to develop the base numbers just like other plants and or animals! For example, the ppm of N in a healthy leaf is very close to 200 ppm.
The cost of the lab analysis is going to be about $90-$125 .
It took many,100's of trials to publish the data in MORRISON.S book and I do not have that kind of money.
Bee researches need to focus more on the nutrional anaysis for bees
We need to know about all of their nutional requirements.

I am working on a new formula, feed additive. to add to known pollen substitutes that will include higher amounts of vitamins, minerals and trace elements.
It would be much easier if we were more knowlegeable and had better resources like the other areas of animal husbandry!
Regards,
Ernie

[alpha6]

Bee researches need to focus more on the nutrional anaysis for bees
We need to know about all of their nutional requirements.



Exactly!!

I tell you, if we could get a decent group that agree on moving in this direction and come up with a good strategy I would be willing to contribute money to advance these types of studies. I am tired of research that does nothing to help us advance those aspects of beekeeping that directly affect the realities of commercial beekeeping. Research has to focus on the realities of commercial beekeeping (pollination, honey production, etc) and then come up with better practices that enhance those aspects and better management in non-cost prohibitive way.

Hopefully this thread will continue and develop as people contribute to the ideas and give this area some real thought. Thanks Keith for getting things rolling.

[BEES4U]

I would be willing to contribute money to advance these types of studies.
Thank you!

It's time for me to talk to the lab and see what they can do in a ppm analysis of bees.
Ernie

[John Fulp]

I agree with this but there is a flip side to this question.....there are thousands of different microbes in a bees gut. Different chems/oils/ and even sugar will kill certain microbes. I think this maybe a though nut to crack but well worth the effort.

Maybee, we should have Mrs. Obameee send us some of the free money they are draining from us....

John

[sqkcrk]

How do we get a balance of microbial community within the hive.

What is "microbial community"?
How do you measure "microbial community"?
What is the proper "balance of microbial community"?

Is this the pH discussion all over again?

[Keith Jarrett]

Is this the pH discussion all over again?

Well yes it is, I started that one & this one (sorry). It is also mentioned(pH) in this months ABJ artical on Microbes. If you get the abj Sqkcrk they have had a three part series on this.

As most of you know I sell pollen sub to other keepers, I think nutrition is the most misunderstood part of the bee world today.

Some here have talked about lab test of pollen, I have posted that here before. I sure like what I see from this thread.:)

[BEES4U]

Is this the pH discussion all over again?

The ph and Richter scale are both logarithmetic and difficult to understand

Richter scale - Reference Center
Richter scale, measure of the magnitude of seismic waves from an earthquake, devised in 1935 by the American seismologist Charles F. Richter (1900–1985). The scale is logarithmic; that is, the amplitude of the waves increases by powers of 10 in relation... more

The ph scale can be a useful tool in bee nutrition. We may have to add some natural buffers the make the "material' work for the bees.
Regards,
Ernie

[Matt Beekman]

Jester Bee Company has been putting probiotics in their supplement. Does anyone have any experience with their product?

http://www.jesterbee.com/Beebread.html

[Keith Jarrett]

Jester Bee Company has been putting probiotics in their supplement. Does anyone have any experience with their product?

I have heard the bees did not eat the stuff, but that was only from one keeper.

[BEES4U]

Here is some data:
24-methylene cholesterol, also found in pollen, is the major sterol of the body tissue of adult queen and worker bees.
But, they do not tell us how to get it into the bee by selecting the right oil or fat!
Ernie

[Pooh]

I remember being told that corn pollen is high in 24 methylene cholesterol. They remarked that it was all that corn pollen was good for.

[BigDaddyDS]

I've heard other beekeepers RAVE about Kevin Jester's BBread product!

But, that's an aside... Microbes in the bee's gut is the primary reason I decided to go medication free in my bee yards. It stands to reason that if we nuke the digestive system of the bee with Terramycin and Fumidil-B, we're killing the "good" bacteria within their digestive systems. Without reintroducing the good bacterias back in, the bees can't possibly digest their food, and they become nutritionally deficient. And, this isn't taking into account the bacteria (yeasts) that pollen and bee bread needs to become edible!

Dr. Diana Sammataro is currently (as of last spring) doing research on this very topic. It's been discovered that Lactobacillius is present in the digestive systems of honeybees. How to grow, or reintroduce Lactobacillus back into the hive and our bees, I feel, is an important piece of our puzzle.

DS

[JBJ]

Glad to see this subject come up again. I brought the subject of probiotics and bees up a couple of years ago on Beesource and did not get that much traction so it is great to see the ABJ articles and some more discussion.

I think this is an extremely important area of study and could result in changes in the way the industry feeds and uses antibiotics. The ability to colonize the bee hive and gut with beneficials could have major implications for bee nutrition and colony health whether it is better digestion and/or competitive inhibition of pathogens. Probiotics have a good track record in medicine and other forms of animal husbandry so I am looking forward to greater understanding and breakthroughs for apiculture.

[Matt Beekman]

Here is some data:
24-methylene cholesterol, also found in pollen, is the major sterol of the body tissue of adult queen and worker bees.
But, they do not tell us how to get it into the bee by selecting the right oil or fat!
Ernie

Canola oil is where you get the 24-methylene cholesterol. It was in one of Eric Mussens newsletters a couple of years ago.

[sqkcrk]

ABJ artical on Microbes. If you get the abj Sqkcrk they have had a three part series on this.


I'll have to get my hands on that issue. I haven't subscribed to the bee mags in a number of years. It cuts down on my recyclables. :)

[Keith Jarrett]

Well...

Been adding lactic acid bacteria & bifidobacteria microbes to my sub for testing, ahh heck... if they all go tits up I'll just blame it on CCD. :)

[jean-marc]

Keith is that the Crazy California Diet?

Jean-Marc

[Michael Bush]

>How do we get a balance of microbial community within the hive.

Don't feed sugar syrup. Stop treating with anything that upsets the pH. Stop treating with anything that is an antibiotic (TM, Tylosin, Fumidil etc.). Stop using essential oils which will also kill microbes. Stop treating with anything. :)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmorethan.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

[BEES4U]

Keith,

Here's another product:
MRM
WHEY
18 g Protein/ Serving
TYPICAL AMINO ACID PROFILE PER 25.5 g SCOOP
NAME mg/scoop
ALANINE 800
ARGININE 400
ASPARTIC ACID 1910
CYSTEINE 220
GLUTAMIC ACID 3000
L-GLUTAMINE 1000
GLYCINE 400
HISTIDINE 250
ISOLEUCINE 1110
LEUCINE 1630
LYSINE 1540
METHIONINE 330
PHENYLALANINE 530
PROLINE 1070
SERINE 910
THREONINE 1040
TRYPTOPHAN 380
TYROSINE 440
VALINE 1040
_____________________________________
Table 1. Amino acid content of average pollen expressed as percent of crude protein
CONSTITUENT Average pollen(crude protein, 26.3%)
ïpercent
Arginine 5.3
Histidine 2.5
Isoleucine 5.1
Leucine 7.1
Lysine 6.4
Methionine 1.9
Phenyalalamine 4.1
Threomine 4.1
Trypotophane 1.4
Valine 5.8
____________________________________-

Comments,
Ernie
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[Deeptime]

I sent one post but due to computer issues it may never have gotten past my firewall.
You folks focus on gut health is great. I've work for a duck company for 20 years and ducks like bees don't exactly have the pharma companies smothering us with research proposals. In the last 10 years we refocused our broadbased duck research to a more narrow focus on maintaining and improving gut flora and gut wall health. The research was cutting edge, but slow and expensive and only in the last 5 years has it really showed any real benefits, but now after all these years we are really seeing things improve. Bottom line (for ducks, and probably bees), If you can maintain a healthy gut flora and a good gut wall, many of your environmental, microbial challanges can be overcome. Good luck, many of your posts sound like our internal e-mails from 10 years ago. :thumbsup:

[Matt Beekman]

Well...

Been adding lactic acid bacteria & bifidobacteria microbes to my sub for testing, ahh heck... if they all go tits up I'll just blame it on CCD. :)

Any updates? Kill any bees yet? :p

[Michael Bush]

Another thing to consider. Perhaps the best way to restore proper microbes is to simply put a frame of pollen and brood (with bees) from a thriving hive in your failing hive. This will innoculate them with the microbes from the hive that is doing well. :)

[Matt Beekman]

A recent probiotic study. More food for thought.

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/09-120.pdf

[BEES4U]

A recent probiotic study.

Thanks Matt for the good information!
Ernie

[BEES4U]

If you can maintain a healthy gut flora and a good gut wall, many of your environmental, microbial challanges can be overcome.

Are their any up-dated for bees in this area?
Comments?
Ernie

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

A recent probiotic study. More food for thought.

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/09-120.pdf

Hum. Bacillus. Isn't that the same critter that turns booze into vinegar?

[sqkcrk]

A recent probiotic study.
Ernie

Isn't that a shampoo? :)

[BEES4U]

Isn't that a shampoo?
No.
Ernie

[Ben Brewcat]

Hum. Bacillus. Isn't that the same critter that turns booze into vinegar?

That's acetobacter. Baccilus is a huge grouping of "bugs" with lots of members.