deep vs medium

[kwest]

i was going to start using all mediums for brood chambers and all but isn't doing inspections with 3 or four mediums stacked a heck of alot more work and more invasive than two deeps? i dont care about the weight of the boxes but the handyness of one size box appeals to me for splitting etc

[NorthWest_bee_guy]

I for one have had mixed feeling for this I have two fellow beeks that one has two deeps and med supers the other just uses western mediums the one who uses mediums has over 40 hives and has been keeping bees for 40 years the other has 4 hives and has been keeping bees for four years I am moving to all mediums this spring you working the hives is not that hard work and no more disturbing then any thing else. you just need thee brood boxes is all.

[DRUR]

i was going to start using all mediums for brood chambers and all but isn't doing inspections with 3 or four mediums stacked a heck of alot more work and more invasive than two deeps? i dont care about the weight of the boxes but the handyness of one size box appeals to me for splitting etc

I won't address the weight issue since you have already made your decisions. Don't know if you are using wood or plastic, but when I kept bees during the 70's and 80's (using nothing but wood, now I use plastic), I found that the medium frames lasted forever but the deep frames could be destroyed almost at anytime. The extra weight of a deep puts to much stress on the deep frames. Notice that there is no difference in the construction (deeps are not thicker) so the added weight when pulling frames wears them out much quicker. Just a consideration.

I can sure see your point concerning examining 30 frames (for 3 mediums) vs. 20 frames for the equivalent 2 deeps.

Another issue for me was compatibility, If I need another brood box or drawn frame just grab a medium honey super and drop drawn frames in for a brood box.

And still another issue is cost. One size (mediums) means that you are more inclinded to buy quantity of one item and there is often drastic discounts. Small volume medium box is about $10.00 and small volume deep is $15+, making brood box cost about $30.00 either way (3 mediums vs 2 deeps). But volume purchase of 50 mediums is $7 per box making only $21.00 for 3 medium boxes.

[StevenG]

When I was younger (I'm now 61) I ran two deep, 10-frame brood boxes. Then I was out of beekeeping for about 15 years. When I got back in a few years ago, I read where 8-frame Illinois depth was the way to go. So that's what I did. To my regret. The two years I ran three 8-frame Illinois depth brood chambers I got NO surplus honey. The bees did fine, but there was just not enough space for the queen to do her thing. They never got as strong as my 10-frame deeps... So I switched over two years ago to 10-frame 2-story brood nest. The first year after the switch my best hive produced 80 pounds of surplus.

I only have two setups for 8-frame, so next year I'll make some 8-frame deep boxes and use those as nucs. Or just play and see what they do. They'll be my backups, in case I need to hive a swarm or something quickly.

For extracing supers, I use some med. depth, but mainly shallow, because of my age and the weight. But for the brood next, deep.
Regards,
Steven

[Ben Brewcat]

Sure it's a little more work doing a full inspection, every frame. But how often do you really do that? Maybe once a year and/or requeening? Most inspections I just find the box where the broodnest is thickest, check the brood pattern, evaluate stores and space for same, and good to go. I really like the all-medium colonies, wish I'd started off that way.

[beyondthesidewalks]

I've already gone to 8 frame hives but still use deeps for my hive bodies. I have only one 10 frame hive left and it gets converted to 8 frame this fall. I mainly increase numbers with swarm traps and a few cutouts. I think that deeps make better swarm traps (5 frame nucs) and also are easier for placing cut out combs. You'd really have to hack away at big feral combs when doing cut outs to make them fit in medium frames, I think. I've been comtemplating going to all mediums. Has anyone else shared Stevens experience? By going to all mediums do you sacrifice queen performance?

[NorthWest_bee_guy]

I've already gone to 8 frame hives but still use deeps for my hive bodies. I have only one 10 frame hive left and it gets converted to 8 frame this fall. I mainly increase numbers with swarm traps and a few cutouts. I think that deeps make better swarm traps (5 frame nucs) and also are easier for placing cut out combs. You'd really have to hack away at big feral combs when doing cut outs to make them fit in medium frames, I think. I've been comtemplating going to all mediums. Has anyone else shared Stevens experience? By going to all mediums do you sacrifice queen performance?
No you don't you get a more prolific queen. One draw back to all mediums is if you don't keep up on the hive as to rotation of bodies then you run the risk of swarming. Not my experiance but my friend had 12 swarms because of it.

[Terry Small, Jr]

Where I work we use a medium on the bottom and a deep on top for the permanent hive. I never really asked about it, but I think it's because it allows us to load the trucks 3 high without bumping into weight or height issues. We refer to the mediums as shallows for simplicity, as English is a second language for most of the guys I work with. Mediums are used for supers. With about 2200 supers left to pull in the Imperial Valley, I am REALLY glad we don't super with deeps.

[Michael Bush]

I think it's a lot less work. A lot less lifting and while you might have to examine more frames those are lighter and smaller.

You need at least FOUR eight frame mediums to equal TWO ten frame deeps. I run unlimited brood nests. I split every hive this year so far and some twice and they are stacked up taller than me on stands that are only 3 1/2" tall. But this is a bumper crop year.

[beyondthesidewalks]

You need at least FOUR eight frame mediums to equal TWO ten frame deeps. I run unlimited brood nests. I split every hive this year so far and some twice and they are stacked up taller than me on stands that are only 3 1/2" tall. But this is a bumper crop year.

MB, I'm glad you posted a reply. Is this your way of saying that queen performance has not been inhibited by your going to all mediums?

:ot:Wish I could say we're having a bumper crop here. We've been extremely dry but this week it's supposed to rain. Maybe it'll turn around.

[Tom G. Laury]

Terry Small mentions pulling honey in the Imperial Valley. A very very hot place. 6 5/8 supers have one third less weight attached to the top bar. This makes it much lees likely to break down in heat when full of honey and being transported.

[ga.beeman]

I had fifty hives that where set up as mediums and I ran them last year and this year but when they die out I am going back to deeps on these hives. There is three times as much work when you are working these hives. If weight is a issue then this would be a good option but other wise I think the deeps are the best way to go...David

[Michael Bush]

>MB, I'm glad you posted a reply. Is this your way of saying that queen performance has not been inhibited by your going to all mediums?

Yes. As long as you give her enough room.

I don't see how anyone can think mediums are more work. Could someone explain why they think they are more work?

[Hambone]

I use all mediums for pretty much one reason. I don’t have to keep up with different size stuff. I have a few part #’s written down for all my medium components. I don’t have to worry about ordering a bunch of other sized stuff. I can also put (throw) everything in my shed and grab what I need and I know it fits the mediums. ( I am not real organized) Just makes it easy for me.

[sqkcrk]

If you want equipment that is best for your queens then use Jumbo Dadant supers for the brood supers and shallow supers for the honey supers. You'll only need one Jumbo Dadant per hive. The Jumbo Dadant supers give the queen a really big comb to lay in w/out having to cross wood.

Oh, yeah, I forgot, they don't make them anymore. So, I guess deep supers are the next best thing.

[beyondthesidewalks]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, they don't make them anymore. So, I guess deep supers are the next best thing.

Thanks, sqkcrk, I got a chuckle out of that. I think robo has experimented with double deep frames. They are on his website http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/beekeeping/double-deep-frames/. I cannot imagine working them. The full hive bodies would weigh over 150 lbs and the frames would want to break from their own weight. Exactly what most of us considering all mediums are trying to get away from.

[Ross]

And what makes you think that crossing wood is a big deal for a queen?

[DRUR]

And what makes you think that crossing wood is a big deal for a queen?

In the past when I kept bees, I ran two deep for the brood boxes and mediums for honey supers. I wintered with two deeps, one socked full of honey, and sometimes a deep and medium socked full of honey (wintering with 2 dps and 1 med.).

This year I purchased 2 (2-deep colonies) to start with and purchased 4 empty deeps for $5.00 each). I bought them because they were a bargain but wish now I had passed.

I now have 1 deep and 1 or 2 mediums on all my colonies. The queens move up to the mediums to lay when there is still plenty of room in the deeps, but I guess it is easier beings I am using plastic frames instead of wood. As soon as possible I will be using nothing but mediums and someone will get a bargain on my deeps, and if I am able to sell them at a bargain price, I will also get a bargain.

In all my years I have never found that the queen has any problem, moving from one frame to another. People here complain that their queens move up from deeps into there medium honey supers, ALL THE TIME. This is a constant complaint on these threads.

Logical well thought arguments are helpful, arguments without any logical foundation or support are perplexing. How do you answer something with no logic behind it. How can mediums instead of deeps affect queen fecundity? Please give me the logic behind this.

[wcubed]

This is a subject dear to my heart, but will pass for the night shift. If the irratic DSL supports, will spend some time on it in the morning. Opinions vary and its complex.
Walt

[wcubed]

This morning at 9A, my ragged DSL wouldn't even let me access the site. Since it's intermittant, this may come in separate pieces.
My opinions are based on observation. Most were made when studying colony operations for my interest in supplementing retirement income. Wasn't even keeping records. So, have no formal data to support the conclusions. However, I seem to see more than most beeks. Some can look into hives for a lifetime, and still not have a clue what the bees are doing-when.

sqkcrk: DRUR; Ross.<crossing wood>
It's not a matter of crossing wood - It's the break in functional comb at box joints that is the deterrent. With wood frames, the gap in comb is almost 1 1/2 inches. In the natural nest, comb is continuous. If you have not seen colony reluctance to jump the gap, you have not been paying attention. (Treated from different perspectives in POV articles)

My recommended wintering cofiguation of a single deep and shallows is based on that and other observations. Will mention a few of many.

The colony much prefers to rear brood in a deep. More verticle range of continuous comb. Although the medium is only an inch more than a shallow, in the colony perception, that's enough to generate a preference for the medium over the shallow.

The single deep for the basic brood nest has several advantages:
Colony preference for rearing brood in a deep anchors the basic nest in place for the full season. They do not mind expanding up through shallows in the early season (driven by the urge to reproduce), and receding to the basic deep during "main flow". It's handy from many beeking operations to know where the basic nest is located.
If it is a matter weight to handle, my config. is easier. Shallows are lighter than meds (that inch almost 25%) Further a deep of brood often weighs less a medium of honey. And only have to move the deep twice in the season when it is mostly brood.

Better send this much. It's clouding up.

Walt

[Cedar Hill]

StevenG wrote"The bees did fine, but there was just not enough space for the queen to do her thing. They never got as strong as my 10-frame deeps... So I switched over two years ago to 10-frame 2-story brood nest. The first year after the switch my best hive produced 80 pounds of surplus."
Have had very similar experiences. Honey crop was noticably lessened by using all three Illinois supers or one deep under an Illinois. The latter was a nice size to lift manually off the truck for pollinating but the honey surplus just was never very good with either setup. It may be different in other regions of the country but for New England, wintering in two deeps seems advisable instead of 3 Illinois. OMTCW

[kwest]

right now i have deeps and westerns. i have a hive with 2 deep brood chambers and now she has even moved up into the medium super and started to lay. It may be differn't in other areas but my bees seem to cross the gap easily. they fill the spaces in with comb to make a bridge.

[DRUR]

sqkcrk: DRUR; Ross.<crossing wood>
It's not a matter of crossing wood - It's the break in functional comb at box joints that is the deterrent. With wood frames, the gap in comb is almost 1 1/2 inches. In the natural nest, comb is continuous. If you have not seen colony reluctance to jump the gap, you have not been paying attention. (Treated from different perspectives in POV articles)

My recommended wintering cofiguation of a single deep and shallows is based on that and other observations. Will mention a few of many.

The colony much prefers to rear brood in a deep. More verticle range of continuous comb. Although the medium is only an inch more than a shallow, in the colony perception, that's enough to generate a preference for the medium over the shallow.

The single deep for the basic brood nest has several advantages:
Colony preference for rearing brood in a deep anchors the basic nest in place for the full season. They do not mind expanding up through shallows in the early season

First Walt, if you will reread my quote I complained becaused these statements were nothing but base allegations without any logical support, and Secondly, the allegation was that the queens did not perform as well on mediums as they did on deeps.

And finally I disagree with your observations as mine have been different.

My observations are thus:
I have one deep (at this time) on all my colonies, with a medium or two. This is not early in the season but late, even for Texas. Everyone of my queens has moved up and laid eggs in the middle of my mediums, even though they had plenty of room in the deep. Two of the colonies have also moved up into their second medium (only have two clonies with two mediums). My queens (with one exception which I will go into later) are using only the middle 2 to four frames in the deep and then also the same frames above in the mediums, and the two with two mediums are using the same frames in the 2nd medium, except that one is using 3 frames in the deep, 5 frames in the 1st medium and 3 frames in the 2nd medium.

I took my best two colonies, to make new queens, (both had 1 deep and two mediums). After, the split was made (I removed the queens with the splits allowing the large colonies to make the queens), and all the queen cells were on medium (about 10 in one and 7 in another); except 1 lonely queen cell on one side of one deep. Both deeps and mediums, had eggs and young larva.

Simply put my observations do not agree with yours.

The exception is the colony which I have which is not totally regressed. All my mediums are small frames and she has not ventured up into these. I have two drawn small cells, but she still prefers laying in the four large cells I have left, but I am working these out. This also is the only colony that the mites are exploding, 46 for 24 hour mite drop in oil tray. I did break down and use powdered sugar on them, twice now. Just trying to save them until they are totally regressed.

[DRUR]

So I switched over two years ago to 10-frame 2-story brood nest. The first year after the switch my best hive produced 80 pounds of surplus."
Have had very similar experiences. Honey crop was noticably lessened by using all three Illinois supers or one deep under an Illinois. The latter was a nice size to lift manually off the truck for pollinating but the honey surplus just was never very good with either setup. It may be different in other regions of the country but for New England, wintering in two deeps seems advisable instead of 3 Illinois. OMTCW
CedarHill: In another post gmcharlie recommened to a new beek (who was also in Ind. or Ill. where Charlie was from) stating that the bees wintered better in deeps. There is some logic to this as maintaining a brood nest in harsh winter in one brood chamber, at least logically, would be better. Although, I can't see why it would be harder to go from frame to frame in on brood box as opposed to frame to frame in two boxes; but I deferred to the wisdom of gmcharlie as he was a northern beek; although his advice is not in accordance with Michael Bush, who I would certainly give my best regards to, but then again he is only in Nebraska.

The above being said, one or two colonies does not make a determination in a study. Nectar production, production between queens, and production from the same queen varies from year to year. Some queens never hit their stride the first year, why I don't know, but then explode in the second year. When I kept bees during the 70s and 80s, my buddy beek, ran all mediums, and I used two deeps, for the brood nest. His produced as much as mine, no more or less (noticeably). But I was always jealous because his were much easier to work, that is why I will go to mediums now, the quicker the better.

[DRUR]

My opinions are based on observation.

Most were made when studying colony operations for my interest in supplementing retirement income. Wasn't even keeping records. So, have no formal data to support the conclusions.

However, I seem to see more than most beeks. Some can look into hives for a lifetime, and still not have a clue what the bees are doing-when.

sqkcrk: DRUR; Ross.<crossing wood>
It's not a matter of crossing wood - It's the break in functional comb at box joints that is the deterrent. With wood frames, the gap in comb is almost 1 1/2 inches. In the natural nest, comb is continuous. If you have not seen colony reluctance to jump the gap, you have not been paying attention.

My recommended wintering cofiguation of a single deep and shallows is based on that and other observations. Will mention a few of many.

The colony much prefers to rear brood in a deep.

The single deep for the basic brood nest has several advantages:
Colony preference for rearing brood in a deep anchors the basic nest in place for the full season. They do not mind expanding up through shallows in the early season (driven by the urge to reproduce), and receding to the basic deep during "main flow".

Walt

Walt:
Your condescending manner of referring to the rest of us is tiring.

My opinions are based upon my observations, as other beeks and Michael Bush's are based upon his observations.

Many of my observations were made over a 10 year period when I was beekeeping for honey and fun from the late 70s through the late 80s. I then had 12-15 colonies, and my friend also had about 40 colonies, and my other friend had 300 colonies, and wintered several thousand for the Woodworth's from North Dakota during this period of time. I helped him with these colonies. Both Mark and I had our own successful businesses and we kept bees to relieve the pressure. We studied and experimented and yes We even kept records of our observatons, although mine were lost when I moved to Kentucky in 1996, and Mark died this past year. So, many of my formal conclusions are based upon the data and experiments we gathered back then, and for which we kept records.

I would also agree that you see a lot more than even the most observant beeks and you certainly read more into your observations then I would read into mine. In some of your other posts your conclusions to me are rather far fetched. But I am sure you think you are the only one who can look into a colony and figure out what is going on; and I simply doubt this.

Now, I certainly don't mind conclusions and observations that are different from mine, I just would like some justification for those observations and conclusions.

How is it any harder for the queen to move up this time of year than in the spring?

I will also ask you this Walt, how is it that moving from a deep brood box to another deep brood box is any different than moving from a medium brood box, to another medium brood box, and then up to another medium? And also, I would be sorely disappointed if one deep was sufficient area for my queen to lay during the spring when she is laying between 2,000 and 3,000 eggs a day. If this colony went through winter with adequate stores she is only laying on about 80% (or probably less) of the comb. Then she generally doesn't lay on the outside combs so that leave you with a maximum of eight frames (but more probably 6). 21 days x 2500= or - per day gives you 50,000-60,000 bees in the brood nest. Assuming that 20 % of the frame is for pollen and honey that leaves only about 40,000 (actually more like 30,000 with 6 frames) cells for the queen to lay in. Go figure. Any beek who has come out of winter knows that more than likely the queen will not lay on the outside 2 or 3 (during the cold winter/spring) actually only leaving you about 6 frames to lay on, but I guess you never observed this. This is why most beeks use two deeps or three mediums, not just 1 deep.

Also, how is moving from a lower frame to an upper frame any different or harder on the queen than moving from frames within the box with proper standard spacing? Isn't the difference about the same? As a matter of fact I would say the difference is more, beings almost all of my colonies build comb between the frames top to bottom, a lot more so than the burr comb between the frame, although I have observed this, but certainly not nearly as prevalent.

To put it bluntly Walt your observations are not in accordance with my observations, and many other very experienced and observant beeks.

[odfrank]

No extractor big enough.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/Garantuan%20BroodChambers/IMG_0257.jpg

[Terry Small, Jr]

Wow!! What's the story behind those? Homemade?

[kwest]

wow odfrank what did that box weigh?

[Reid]

Notice that there are 13 frames in that box as well! Just one of those frames of honey must way close to 15 pounds or more.:eek:
~Reid

[Terry Small, Jr]

must way close to 15 pounds or more.:eek:
~Reid

How do you extract a frame like that without it blowing out? Just looks like too much weight to manage. Start out very slow, then gradually increase the speed?

[wcubed]

Danny:
Don't know what you saw to get your panties in a wad - unless you qualify as a lifetimer without a clue. I think not. In my first posting, it was acknowlged that opinions vary, but of course I'm biased to my own. Disagree all you like, but try to resist personal attack as in "condescending manner". On a one-time basis will respond your reservations. I don't do peeing contests - my low pressure system is not competitive.

A note: After reviewing my post, realized had not mentioned that the colony preference for rearing brood in a deep is not nearly as severe for a medium as for a shallow. As strange as that may seem, they are quite comfortable with a brood nest of Mediums. Tried to post that then -too late, DSL had shut me down.

Intended to treat the subject of queen preferences or judgements in this discussion somewhere, and your question about moving up opens the door.
I see no evidence that the Q makes any decision other than whether or not to lay a fertilized egg. The workers decide where and when eggs are needed, and encourage her to make it happen. The retinue or "court" might better be called the board of directors or the steering committee.
Radical? Yes. Prove me wrong.
As it relates to moving up - its not her call.

As it relates to moving up at this time of year, that's not in accordance with their survival format. Typically, overhead honey storage during the "main flow" pushes the brood nest downward with capped honey. They are very reluctant to open capped honey in mid season. It's the reserve for wintering and is sacred. Expansion upward into capped honey in mid season would be highly irregular.

If your colonies put comb in the interbar space, check your bee space between frames. By maintaining bee space, I get very little interbar comb.
Don't think it has been mentioned on this forum, but by oversupering upstairs, there is very little comb between the supers.

Didn't need the lecture on fecundity or room to lay. An article on that subject is included on the POV list. You might resort to reading it. What you may have missed is that I'm not limiting the queen to a single deep. Often have a deep and 3or4 shallows of brood at the end of build up.

Walt

[DRUR]

Danny:
Don't know what you saw to get your panties in a wad - unless you qualify as a lifetimer without a clue.

Disagree all you like, but try to resist personal attack as in "condescending manner". On a one-time basis will respond your reservations. I don't do peeing contests - my low pressure system is not competitive.

Intended to treat the subject of queen preferences or judgements in this discussion somewhere, and your question about moving up opens the door.
I see no evidence that the Q makes any decision other than whether or not to lay a fertilized egg. The workers decide where and when eggs are needed, and encourage her to make it happen. The retinue or "court" might better be called the board of directors or the steering committee.
Radical? Yes. Prove me wrong.
As it relates to moving up - its not her call.

Walt:
First off my so-called painties aren't in wad (I don't wear painties, just another of your derogatory statements unsupported by any facts); and furthermore, your disgusting remark concerning some supposed peeing contest (although even at my ripe old age I have no pressure problems).

The rest of your post is simply put (off-topic) so I won't address it here, having more respect for kwest's thread. But I will say this, that most of your so-called observations do not hold water and are as I have said previously, nothing more than unsupported allegations without foundation.

The issue was, which you seem to be ignoring concerning your statement as follows:
"sqkcrk: DRUR; Ross.<crossing wood>
It's not a matter of crossing wood - . If you have not seen colony reluctance to jump the gap, you have not been paying attention."

In my previous post I stated precisely what my observations were concerning this issue, which are drastically at odds with your statement concerning your unsupported allegation of a colonies reluctance to jump the gap where you specifically state:

"sqkcrk, DRUR, and Ross... have not been paying attention."

Had YOU been paying attention, you would have seen that I gave my evidence and facts in support of my observation refuting your unsupported statement concerning the queens reluctance in crossing the wood. That observation being that my queens (or workers as you suppose which I also don't agree with) have plenty of room in my deep and mediums to expand the brood nest before deciding (your so-called reluctance) to move up into two medium boxes to lay instead.

At this time you have given no supporting evidence concerning anything to support any of your so-called observations. Stating opinion without the facts upon which your opinion is based when there is a difference of opinions, is worthless.

The other issue was dealing with queen performance, in which another unsupported allegation was made that mediums vs. deeps (in case you don't comprehend that is the inquiry of this thread) affects somehow the queens performance (what I presumed to be the queen's fecund), and was not intended to allow you to hijack this thread so you could treat the subject of queen preferences or judgments. Start your own thread dealing with this issue, that is what they are for. The rest of your ramblings are not at issue here so I will not address them.

[BEES4U]

Oh, yeah, I forgot, they don't make them anymore. So, I guess deep supers are the next best thing.
I know a man that will make you any size frame you want.
I think that the minimum order is 1,000.
His name is hans Yorty who owns Snow Peak Apiaries. is ad is in the ABJ.
Regards,
Ernie

[odfrank]

Here is a link to my old thread about my two Gargantuan hives.
http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206044&highlight=gargantuan&page=3

The frames were made by DaveW on this forum. I think are 17 3/4" deep and fit two sheets of 8 1/2" foundation. One hive is large cell, the other is small cell with screened bottom board, with 1 1/4" wide frames. The hives are now honey bound which is common in my area. This problem of not being able to extract them has proven the double deep frame idea to be bunk. Neither produce much of a crop this year other than what is locked in the brood chamber. Cut, crush and strain here I come.

[JPK]

Here is a link to my old thread about my two Gargantuan hives.
http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206044&highlight=gargantuan&page=3

The frames were made by DaveW on this forum. I think are 17 3/4" deep and fit two sheets of 8 1/2" foundation. One hive is large cell, the other is small cell with screened bottom board, with 1 1/4" wide frames. The hives are now honey bound which is common in my area. This problem of not being able to extract them has proven the double deep frame idea to be bunk. Neither produce much of a crop this year other than what is locked in the brood chamber. Cut, crush and strain here I come.

I guess my first question is, do you have any evidence/observations that suggest that the girls like a large uninterrupted sheet of comb more/less than something like a double deep config or three mediums?

I would imagine its tough to find the queen on something like that and hard to pull frames/replace them

[DRUR]

I would imagine its tough to find the queen on something like that and hard to pull frames/replace them

JPK:
You make another interesting observation or point here, that being whether it is easier to find the queen on a larger frame or smaller frame. Back in the 70s and 80s my buddy who had all mediums (w/plastic frame back then) ran Starline queens and I ran Midnites. His queens were always easier to find in the brood box than mine. This differences could have been because of the color a Starlines were Italian hybrids (pretty yellow queens), and Midnites were Caucasian hybrids (pretty black queens). Or the difference could have been that it is easier to scan a medium quicker and more completely than a deep.

Maybe we can seduce Michael Bush to make an additional comment concerning his experience with this since he has had both deeps and mediums ; and also, yellow and black queens.

[odfrank]

I guess my first question is, do you have any evidence/observations that suggest that the girls like a large uninterrupted sheet of comb more/less than something like a double deep config or three mediums?I would imagine its tough to find the queen on something like that and hard to pull frames/replace them

I have 30 years experience using 11 1/4" deep frames in both 12 frame and 10 frame brood chambers. Easier to find the queen, less frames less boxes. In the 12 frame box, better honey production. No science, just observations.

The gargantuan frames weigh a ton, are hard to pull out of the box, they never end, in two years have not proven any honey production advantage, and I would not suggest to anyone that they build any.

[odfrank]

This was a 2007 crop on 11 1/4" frames, single ten frame box hives. I ran out of supers that year, you can see the funky old boxes on top that I scrounged up. And all through a queen excluder.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/SanMateo2007002.jpg

[bnatural]

Jeepers creepers, thems a lot of supers! Must be fun getting them down, but a nice problem to have.

Bill

[kwest]

wow that is an awsome pic odfrank. the pics like these is one of the things i enjoy the most about this forum. are you using top entrances or bottom on those hives? I am guessing bottom with those excluders?

[odfrank]

are you using top entrances or bottom on those hives? I am guessing bottom with those excluders?

Bottom entrances and 30+ year old honey supers with lots of leaks