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View Full Version : A few questions on non chemical solutions for mites



Tuttle
07-11-2009, 09:24 PM
First of all I would just like to thank anyone taking the time to help me out, I greatly appreciate it!

I've heard conflicting opinions on using non chemical solutions for mites so I was wondering if someone could provide me with their expertise and experience. My father is an ex commercial bee keeper and has said he has never heard of any of these solutions although he has been out of the game for quite some time.

I've also talked to a few of his friends who are currently local commercial bee keepers and they say that they just stick to using chemicals and say they don't really have an interest in using any of these methods.

From what I've read on the Internet these methods seem like they could be valuable resources and I am very interested in implementing some of these into my operation.

Let me give you a little bit of background information that may help you in giving advice to me. I live in Southern California desert area, the weather during extraction season/summer gets up to 120 F and it can also get quite humid during these times. In the winter it is usually about mid 60's during the day and it can get pretty cold at night, every once in awhile it will get below 32F but on average is in the mid 40's.

My business wouldn't be considered commercial yet but that is the plan so the methods would need to be applied from a commercial stance and not as a bee hobbyist. I currently have about 100-125 hives and it is my second year operating.

So let me get to my questions on the different methods now:

1. Screened Bottoms: These seem like a win win situation from what I've read they don't allow mites that fall off bees to re-enter the hive and they also provide more ventilation which also makes the hive more cleaner. I have heard that the type of climate can play a role on whether they are beneficial or not so perhaps someone can explain or help me on this decision. I am thinking currently that implementing them would be extremely good, also does anyone know of DYI instructions to make these?

2. Powered sugar: I've heard that this can slightly reduce mites, what is your opinion of it? How often do you use it and when do you use it? During extraction season when you can't use chemical, year around, or?

3. Drone Brood trapping: I was reading about that this can be very beneficial in reducing mites since they prefer drones due to the larva being larger and taking 24 days to hatch which allows the mites to breed more offspring.

Obviously using the premade drone brood foundation frames where you freeze them isn't going to be efficient for commercial use, however I did see a article where a beekeeper was splitting a frame in half and leaving half the foundation out so the bees would make drone cells and then they would simply just go from hive to hive and cut them out. So my question is do you only put this in the bottom hive or in the suppers to? How many do you use? How long do you use them for and when do you use them?

4. Hygienic queen rearing: This seems like an extremely important thing to do but how about in a commercial environment? It seems like it would be a lot of work. Do you base your decision for rearing off the 10 egg test where you poke each one with a needle and if the bees clean out 90% of them within 24 hours then they are considered hygienic? or are there other factors you look for?


Well that's all the questions I had right now, like I said before I greatly appreciate anyone taking the time to help me. Also if you have any other methods or any other advice I would be very interested in hearing of them. Thanks a lot guys!

clarkfarm
07-11-2009, 09:40 PM
I am a second year beekeeper. I do not have comments on all your questions but I do use SBB and xxx sugar. My climate is different than yours -- we got down to 7 or 8 degrees a few times at night last winter. I used the SBB open all winter and the bees came through very strong. Just had one hive until this Spring for what that's worth. Have three hives now.

I start putting xxx sugar on about the second week in June and go weekly for about 3 weeks. Then the last week in July I start weekly again for about 4 weeks. I do not use chemicals. Some on this board believe that the first year is kind of a freebie and after that you get bad mites. We'll see. But so far so good. I got this schedule from my bee guru who like you is commercial. We put the xxx sugar on top of the bars and brush in off and down with a bee brush.

I have tried the drone frames but I find them hard to deal with as they are in my deep brood boxes on the bottom and with all those heavy supers on top its a pain to find them and freeze them. So I may stop that.

Hope you get some good answers to your questions.

gmcharlie
07-12-2009, 07:40 PM
Okay here are some answers from my perspective, keep in mind you have more than I do as I only run around 50 hives at a time...



1. Screened Bottoms: These seem like a win win situation from what I've read they don't allow mites that fall off bees to re-enter the hive and they also provide more ventilation which also makes the hive more cleaner. I have heard that the type of climate can play a role on whether they are beneficial or not so perhaps someone can explain or help me on this decision. I am thinking currently that implementing them would be extremely good, also does anyone know of DYI instructions to make these?!
Excelent product, wouldn't do without them. I am a LOT farther north of you and have had no issues with the cold even when not covered. we typicly hit a least a week of sub Zero (farenhieght) every winter.....
the mites that fall don't get back in the hive...

teh warmer your climiate the better benifit.... i might think twice in Ontario or ALaska but other than that.... Nothing but screens for me.


2. Powered sugar: I've heard that this can slightly reduce mites, what is your opinion of it? How often do you use it and when do you use it? During extraction season when you can't use chemical, year around, or?!

Sugar works as a dropping technique for adult mites only. there are 2 thories as to why it works, one says it gums up the sticky pads on the mites, the other is it promotes bee grooming...

Its cheap, but effectivness is marginal... needs to be done once a week for 3 weeks to catch a full cycle of adults... not a great PM plan, but if you have a hive in trouble its fine....get your hive back to tolerable mite levels with the supers in place...


3. Drone Brood trapping: I was reading about that this can be very beneficial in reducing mites since they prefer drones due to the larva being larger and taking 24 days to hatch which allows the mites to breed more offspring.

bviously using the premade drone brood foundation frames where you freeze them isn't going to be efficient for commercial use, however I did see a article where a beekeeper was splitting a frame in half and leaving half the foundation out so the bees would make drone cells and then they would simply just go from hive to hive and cut them out. So my question is do you only put this in the bottom hive or in the suppers to? How many do you use? How long do you use them for and when do you use them?!
I read the same article, and tried it this year, made up 20 frames like they said.... problem is the bees didn't get the article.... they built brood comb...[/QUOTE]

I have cut out some drones, and scratched others, but overall its not be praticle for me.



4. Hygienic queen rearing: This seems like an extremely important thing to do but how about in a commercial environment? It seems like it would be a lot of work. Do you base your decision for rearing off the 10 egg test where you poke each one with a needle and if the bees clean out 90% of them within 24 hours then they are considered hygienic? or are there other factors you look for?!

You can do like I did and buy breeder queens, and go from that logic, or just use what most refer to as survivor stock.....

For me so far, I see no diffence in my 100.queens and my 20 queens...




ALso look up MDA splitter Mel Dissolken has a fantastic site on outbreeding the mites...... look real close at his logic. Shutting down the queen for 14 days lets all teh mites hatch, and then as soon as the queen lays, boom all the mites put eggs on the first few larve... this really screws up the breeding cycle of the mites and has been my logic for the last 3 years......

Robert Brenchley
07-14-2009, 04:59 AM
I wouldn't be without SBB's, but that's largely because I live in a damp climate and they prevent winter condensation, and help minimise chalkbrood. I'm not sure how many mites are actually killed, though I constantly find live mites fallen through. The big question is, are those mites already dying?

Resistant bees have to be the way to go. There are various ways of testing; the one I've tried is to cut out a two-inch square of capped brood, freeze it, then put it back in the hole and see how many pupae were removed. The real test would be to try to see how many of the pupae they remove of their own accord are parasitised, but I haven't tried yet. They undoubtedly do remove a fair few, mainly in late season when there are surplus workers available. For a few years, I treated every other year, and mite numbers didn't become seriously high until they robbed out someone else's collapsing hives and suddenly acquired the extra mites. I've been a lot warier since that experience!

Marc
07-23-2009, 08:09 AM
Hey Tuttle - in addition to some of the the good advice you already got from the previous posters I would suggest that you take a look at Randy Oliver's website. He was referred to repeatedly by some of the previous posters here as well. His website is http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/
Similar to you he is a professional beekeeper, so his insights and findings might be more relevant for you. On top of that he is also a really friendly guy, down to earth and knows his stuff. Take a look at his site, I think you'll find it interesting and helpful.

gmcharlie
07-23-2009, 08:24 AM
Marc, that was teh article we were discussing up above. I tried Randys method this year, with very little sucsess. My bees built brood comb and honey stores on his frame design...
I ended up succesful in only 2 frames out of 20 tried, and only built drone comb once on those 2 frames.

In fairness, I did use them in hives with natural cells size, who tend to be less ordered when allowed to build what they like.

It would probably work much better in a hive with foundation as they are looking for a place to build drone comb.

Just a comment on the split frame method and how to apply it...

Marc
07-23-2009, 11:36 AM
Gmcharlie - I think you are right with your observation. I have successfully used Randy's split frame drone design for the last two years. Before that I used the green plastic drone frames that you needed to freeze. Randy's design is a major improvement for me. In all of my ten hives the bees use the foundation-less split frames exclusively for drone cells. It's actually a pretty easy way to concentrate your drones on one frame. Cutting them out every three weeks or so is a snap. It's so fast it might even work for commercial beekeepers, I don't know for sure. Randy would be better qualified to answer that. I would definitely contact him and tell him about your observation, he's always interested to hear how his ideas and methods work or don't work for others. Like I said, he's a really friendly guy.

gmcharlie
07-24-2009, 08:35 AM
good point I will make it a plan to drop him a line.

Tuttle
07-24-2009, 10:50 AM
Thanks guys for the information, it's been great hearing other bks experiences with these techniques.

@charlie: if you do get a chance to contact him perhaps you could post what he has to say on here, I would be interested in that.