Start feeding again?

[SBBeeman]

I'm at 8 1/2 weeks with my first hive of Italians. I started with the standard single deep body hive and a top feeder and 3 lbs of nice bees (+ queen).
The bees went like gangbusters, filling nicely shaped comb in the space between the two frames where I had hung the queen cage, and also filling out the mid few frames - I replenished the feeder and cut out the burr comb. They continued building comb on the frames (no more burr comb) through the next week and I replenished the feeder.
On the third week, there were a lot of drowned bees on one side of the feeder (they had been slowly piling up over the weeks) and the syrup on that side was no longer accessible - the syrup on the other side was completely gone. I took this opportunity to clean out the entire top feeder and refill with all fresh solution (made from a different bottled water).
I realized I must move fast to place a second deep soon to avoid crowding and had one ready for week four. At week four I open the hive expecting more great progress and it looked like almost no new comb had been drawn into the frames (maybe a little - not much) and the new solution wasn't really touched. I added the second deep and placed the feeder on top of this...I also took the two outer frames of brood from the bottom and switched them with the two center frames in the upper to encourage the queen to start moving upstairs.
Next weeks inspection...almost the same - next inspection...almost the same (and I removed the top feeder). It seems like as soon as they stopped feeding from the top feeder, the comb production slowed to a crawl. The question is; should I try to use the feeder again to try and encourage comb production?
I should also add that the queen has been laying consistently and well all along and seems to be reusing the previously drawn comb in the lower deep and that the ratio of brood/honey is close to 4 or 5 to 1 (seems like too little honey to me).
Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks

[DRUR]

At week 4-6, most of the original bees are dying off, and few of the new bees are ready to go. If it took a week for her to start laying good, then no new bees would emerge until week 4 (this is the earliest), and would not be able to fly for another week. Now that all the original bees have died off the population is low and the new bees have to tend to the larva. There is an ebb and flow of populations because of the above. It would be normal for things to slow down between weeks 4-8, and then slowly start picking up steam again. I think you are ok. Check to see if their is sealed honey/syrup and if so then they have stores so don't feed, but if not any sealed honey/syrup I would always feed syrup (I feed 2 parts sugar 1 part water, others use 1-1). Keep an eye on them and if they run out of sealed honey, then start feeding again.

Danny

[SBBeeman]

Thanks Drur
The timing of the dropoff does coincide well with the dieoff of the original bees. There are many, many bees now and they do have capped stores and some uncapped as well..whew:)

[indypartridge]

I feed new colonies until they have comb drawn on two deeps.

[RayMarler]

I'm with indypartridge on this, I feed until almost two deeps are drawn on all new splits and swarm retrievals (same would go for packages). I feel it's good to get the full volume of broodnest drawn and working as soon as possible. I then cut back feeding unless the nectar flows stop or slow way down, but only if the hive gets less than 3 or 4 full frames of nectar for the total of the two deeps.

[DRUR]

I feed new colonies until they have comb drawn on two deeps.

You might go to Michael Bush's site on discussion of feeding. http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

IMO there should be a plan and reason for feeding. indy's is a good reason and a good plan, one which I did not consider at the time.

I feed my splits until they get started good and have stored capped honey/syrup. Reason being that if they are capping it I figure they are getting plenty for what they want to do, but this also could depend on the breed of bees.

Italians will often build brood, and use up all syrup doing so, to the point of starvation. Other breeds will cease brood rearing if there is no nectar flow and certainly IMO, if you have these and want them to build you need to feed until the colonies are adequately built up.

Also, in feeding, since I don't treat my bees, I consider natural honey to be more healthy than sugar syrup, as I have read where the ph is different and bees on syrup are more inclined to nosemea.

Also, another consideration is your geographical location. Our winters here are short and temperatures rarely drop below 20%F, making examinations accessable anytime of the year. If I determine my bees need feeding during the middle of the winter, I can feed syrup without worrying about freezing syrup, not so in some locations. Also, we make get minor flows and pollen during any month that weather warms up, which could be any. One must make considerations and management decisions, and his success or failures will often depend on these decisions. Good Luck.

Danny

[BEES4U]

Good morning Santa Barbara beeman.
If you are lucky the Coastal Sumac and Toyon is in bloom and the bees can bring in some natural food.
you can tell if they are working the sumac because they make a yellow wax.
If they are working the Toyon the wax is white.
Good luck,
Ernie

[btedeski]

When I established my hive from a package in May, the bees would not take syrup from a hive top feeder. They just ignored it. After a few weeks I changed to an in hive feeder. They started taking syrup like gangbusters. Comb production increased.

I plan on feeding my bees until they have drawn out two deeps, currently they are taking about 2 quarts a day. (reminds me I need to by sugar today)

[SBBeeman]

Hi Folks:
Yes Danny, I agree that as a keeper I need to assess the situation and take all the variables I think are relevant - along with the incomplete knowledge I have about the bees, the weather effects, and all that I don't know about the nectar flows in my area.
It is true that here in Southern Cal. I can inspect at almost any time of the year, but I want to see more comb - to encourage more efforts especially in the upper deep (which will lead to the supers) and hopefully result in honey for me by the end of the year. After all the discussion, I reconsider and will go back to the top feeder with 1:1 on Sunday after my inspection, unless something has changed in their pattern.
Ernie - thanks for the info on the Coastal Sumac and Toyon. They bring in mostly yellow pollen and far less white..and also a little dark red/orange pollen. This has resulted in a yellow comb (rather dark after a few brood cycles). Now I'll go online and find out what these fine plants look like!

Thanks Again - Jeff -

[DRUR]

Jeff, I cannot take credit for the following information; although Michael Bush's position does seem to confirm one of the reservation I have concerning feeding syrup. The following information comes from his web site located here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm

These are excerpted quotes from his section on nosema:

"In my opinion moisture in the hive in winter, long confinement, any kind of stress and feeding sugar syrup increases the incidence. By all means, feed sugar syrup if you don't have honey and it means helping a struggling package or nuc or split. By all means, if you don't have honey, feed sugar syrup in the fall rather than let them starve, but, in my opinion if you can, try to leave honey on for their winter stores.
Many of the Honey Bee's enemies, such as Nosema, Chalkbrood, EFB, and Varroa all thrive and reproduce better at the pH of sugar syrup and don't reproduce well at the pH of honey. This, however, seems to be universally ignored in the beekeeping world. The prevailing theory on how Oxalic acid trickling works is that the bee's hemolymph becomes too acidic for the Varroa and they die, while the bees do not. So how is it helpful to feed the bees something that has a pH in the range that most of their enemies, including Nosema, thrive, rather than leave them honey that is in the pH range where most of their enemies fail?"

I will be the first to tell you that I am not an expert on the subject of feeding, mainly because I only feed in emergency situations or in order to help a colony get established. But after they have sufficient bee populations to make it on their own, I expect them to provide for themselves, and if they can't I personally would change the genetics of that colony (by requeening with better genetics).

If I dwelt further north where extended periods of freezing temperatures were an issue, my considerations might be different from my experiences in that location (but I doubt it). My two cents worth, and trust me its not worth much more than that.

Danny

[SBBeeman]

Well, the weekend came and went with an inspection and no new feeder. I thought very carefully about the reasons I chose to keep bees and they didn't really start with a need for a lot of honey.
I have been very lucky with my hive so far - Italians..very stable, slow & steady growth with no indications of swarming, robbing pests, anything (except a little burr comb). I decided against the feeder because I didn't want to encourage the brood development that comes along with the artificial nectar flow and the wax production. I figured it would be best to allow the hive to choose their own production vector instead of pushing them along one that isn't consistent with the natural flows in the area and possibly encourage less stability against swarming (besides the pH issue that Danny has pointed toward). I may not get honey, but if I do it'll probably be a lot better than some that has sugar syrup without all the trace components that give it that special something.
Thanks much for all your input - you guys are great! :applause:

[SSmithers]

I had been wondering if taking their honey and giving them back basically candy was a totally bad thing. Since I'm in Ohio I will most probably need to help them out even if I don't have them to harvest the honey. One book I read says that sugar syrup makes them poop less in the winter so they can last longer without a cleansing flight. Doesn't accumulate debris in the gut. In the northern states that is a consideration and doesn't make sugar seem totally bad.

[DRUR]

I had been wondering if taking their honey and giving them back basically candy was a totally bad thing. Since I'm in Ohio I will most probably need to help them out even if I don't have them to harvest the honey. One book I read says that sugar syrup makes them poop less in the winter so they can last longer without a cleansing flight. Doesn't accumulate debris in the gut. In the northern states that is a consideration and doesn't make sugar seem totally bad.

Smithers it is good that you are thinking about these things. These types of decisions are part of managing. Another consideration is that honey is worth a lot more than sugar syrup. I have no experience with the harsh winters here in Texas, but unfortunately we have other 'management' problems to deal with. I am not saying do not feed sugar syrup. Gather all the pertinent information, and make a logical management decision based upon your goals.

[BeeHave]

Ok so I too am a new-bee at this and I have two deep hives and the bottom is full of brood and the top is full, all 10 frames with capped honey. I put a honey super on top for extra room and there is some activity up there but they are just getting started. I plan on letting them have all the honey they have for themselves for their first winter.
Question of adding a feeder or not arises amd when to add or if to add.
Ms. BeeHave

[DRUR]

Ok so I too am a new-bee at this and I have two deep hives and the bottom is full of brood and the top is full, all 10 frames with capped honey. I put a honey super on top for extra room and there is some activity up there but they are just getting started. I plan on letting them have all the honey they have for themselves for their first winter.
Question of adding a feeder or not arises amd when to add or if to add.
Ms. BeeHave

Don't know what your weather is like in Calif (north or south?), but 60 pounds of capped honey is a good start for the winter. If it was me, I would add the honey super below the capped honey. You might go here to read about feeding, some good information: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

[BeeHave]

Thank you Daniel for the nice tip on putting the honey super below the top deep hive. I like that. I just want to make sure they have enuf room and stay put!!!!
Ms. BeeHave

[DRUR]

Thank you Daniel for the nice tip on putting the honey super below the top deep hive. I like that.

Well, when you start moving a deep full of honey (can weigh as much as 90#) that nice tip may change to bad advice. This was just a suggestion and be very careful of your back. Good luck.

[Tom G. Laury]

SB beeman: My answer to your question is yes. You are entering the most stressful time of year in that area. There will not be much in the way of nectar & pollen until November. The bees often go backward during this time. Feed and watch for those Argentine ants they can wipe out the bees.