Pyrethins and bees?

[Noelle]

Help! I have reached the unfortunate decision to spray my property for ticks. We are overrun and routinely pull the suckers off us almost everyday. I have been on IV antibiotics for a tick borne infection in my leg despite constantly spraying with deet on every trip outside. I am exasperated.

The lawn guy is telling me the spray is pyrethin based and is not safe for bees. Does anyone have any advice on how to keep the bees inside the hive and for how long can I or should I do this to protect them as best I can?

I hate to do this but I am really concerned for the safety of my family. I have to keep reminding myself they are just bugs:cry:

[dragonfly]

Your best bet, assuming you won't consider treating with anything else, is to have them treat after the bees are in for the evening, so that the pesticide will have time to dry overnight. As far as I know, pyrethrins lose most of their effectiveness once they dry, but I could be wrong about this, so I am not saying that your bees can't be harmed by it regardless of when it is sprayed. Have you checked into other types of treatment? How large is the area you are having treated, and what type of terrain are you treating?

[Noelle]

I would LOVE recommendations from anyone who have used more bee friendly products to remove ticks.

We have 2 acres of wooded, meadow, wetlands, and lawn. Our propery abuts conservation land on 3 sides as well. My bees seem to go there mostly - but I still worry about using this nasty product.

My hope is that after wiping out the ticks and breaking the cycle we will be able to use more bee friendly techniques like nematodes, Diatomous Earth, and damminix tubes to maintain our property.

[dragonfly]

Treating with DE would be expensive, and probably not that effective if you have a large infestation, but it may be a good maintenance routine after you get the ticks under control. (that will be difficult regardless.;))
There are some beneficial nematodes that are primarily used against ticks, but I can't remember the specific type, and you could probably find it doing a google search.

As for pyrethrins, here's a couple of links with useful information.

1.3 SELECTED PROPERTIES 1.3.1 Physical characteristics: Pyrethrins I and II are refined to pale non viscous liquid oleoresin solutions. I - b.p. 170°C at 0.1 mm Hg with decomposition. II - b.p. 200°C at 0.1 mm Hg with decomposition. 1.3.2 Solubility: Water at 20°C virtually insoluble, soluble in hydrocarbons and many other organic solvents. 1.3.3 Stability: Rapidly oxidized and inactivated in sunlight: decomposed by exposure to light with loss of insecticidal activity. Rapidly hydrolysed by alkali. 1.3.4 Vapour pressure: Not known, virtually non-volatile at ambiant temperature.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pds/pds/pest11_e.htm (http://www.inchem.org/documents/pds/pds/pest11_e.htm)



Title: The toxicity of synthetic pyrethrins to foraging bees.
Personal Authors: Gerig, L. (http://www.beesource.com/forums/SearchResults.aspx?cx=011480691189790707546:cops6f zdyna&cof=FORID:9&ie=UTF-8&q=Gerig, L.&sa=Search)
Author Affiliation: Sektion Bienen, Eidgenossische Forschungsanstalt, Liebefeld-Bern, Switzerland.
Editors: No editors
Document Title: Schweizerische Bienen-Zeitung

Abstract:
In laboratory tests, the toxicity to honeybees of 4 pyrethrins was compared with that of other pesticides such as parathion. Flowering phacelia growing in a PVC "flight tent" was sprayed with the synthetic pyrethrin being tested, and the effects on foraging honeybees and on brood were recorded. Ambush (permethrin), Decis (decamethrin) and Sumicidin (fenvalerate) were moderately toxic to bees foraging on flowers after spraying. Many of the bees knocked down but not killed by these compounds recovered. Ripcord (cypermethrin) was highly toxic. Field formulations of Ambush and Sumicidin may have a repellant effect. None of these pyrethrins caused any adverse effects in the brood nest. P. Walker

Publisher:


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http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19790209215 (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19790209215)

I'm not a subscriber to the above linked site, so I can't get access to the actual article, but the description has a little bit of useful information.:)

[tecumseh]

is the hive in anyway shaded? what does you current day time temperature look to be?

you might consider... closing the hive in with screen and placing at or about the hive entrance a sprinkler to constantly wet the hive down..... this gives them something to drink and cools the hive body down somewhat. after the hive is confined have the bug guy do his thing... evening is best as someone else suggested. you could (I would) likely quit the application of water after dark. don't get weak kneed and become over concerned about keeping your girls locked down for a day or so. remember that in shipping bees most migratory folks quite commonly keep the bees confined for 3 to 4 days at a minimum with little or no problem.

[Countryboy]

Guinea chickens and muskovy ducks are good at eating a lot of bugs, but they do crap everywhere.

[dragonfly]

That's right!:)
Guineas are supposed to be great for controlling ticks. I had forgotten all about them.:)

[Noelle]

Excellent info regarding the toxicity to bees. It sounds like it is not good but may not destroy the brood. plus we will be treating the lawn and understory - not any flowering plants anyway. Maybe it will be okay.

The nematodes are :Beneficial Nematodes (Sc) from http://www.extremelygreen.com

Thanks for the advice of locking them away! We have had constant rain for what seems like weeks with 1-2 days of okay weather here and there. The hive gets morning sun and then dappled shade for the rest of the day (if the sun shines at all). I am even still feeding as they haven't even built ups 2 brood boxes yet. They would probably be used to it anyway;)

As for the guinea hens - we are hoping to get some but more as a maintenance. You have to get them as keets (1 day olds) and it takes about 6 weeks before they can roam about. And you need a big coop - something that we have been working on (how I got the nasty infected tick bite to start with:pinch:) Oh, and I hear that guinea hens eat bees right out the front door of the hive.

Great info and ideas - keep em coming!

[dragonfly]

If you're not going to have any flowering plants sprayed, then you should be pretty safe, but I would still have the spraying done after the bees are in the night or with them screened in for a few hours.

[Noelle]

I think that will work out. Most of our flowers are done for the spring, the hostas haven't bloomed yet and we can't treat the meadows and conservation land anyway.

fingers crossed

[BillS]

Noelle,

I live on three acres, wooded, orchard and lawn. My area (Long Island) is known for ticks, both dog and deer. I have had lymes twice, but not since I moved here. One of my neighbors has Guinea hens. I almost never see a tick when I work my place, but walk in the local woods and you will have 10 - 20 on you. They roam wild and do not live in a coop. They also nest in the brush. They have never eaten bee's out of my hives, although they eat bugs in the brush boardering the field. The do get a little noisy. They seem to make rounds. They will spend a week or so at my place then wander off to buggier pastures. Then they come back in a couple of weeks. If they went away for good I would get some for myself. My wife doesn't like the noise but I am able to tune them both out! I would not spray.

Regards

Bill Schaefer[/I]

[BoBn]

Most of the pyrethrins found in pesticides are actually synthetic pyrethroids, such as bifenthrin, fluvalinate and cyfluthrin permethrin, bifenthrin, cyfluthrin beta-cyfluthrin, cypermethrin,deltamethrin, lambdacyhalothrin, and tralomethrin. These are more stable compounds than the botanical compounds. Check the label.

[Noelle]

Noelle,

One of my neighbors has Guinea hens. They roam wild and do not live in a coop. They also nest in the brush. They have never eaten bee's out of my hives, although they eat bugs in the brush boardering the field. I would not spray.

Regards

Bill Schaefer[/I]

Bill,
thanks for the encouragement. I feel like we would lose them all to predators but maybe they are more resilient than I give them credit for. How big is the flock and how many acres total do you suppose they cover in their rounds?

-Noelle

[BillS]

Noelle,

The area is mostly nursery and farm mixed with residential. They roam over a wide area of hundreds of acres, But I don't think the size of the area matters to them. They are like cats and go where they want. By the way we have plenty of feral cats around and they seem to hold their own just fine(the guinea hens that is). The flock goes up and down from as low as six or so to a couple dozen. In the spring when they are breeding they pair off to nest. They group up again in the summer. My big problem is the deer. The last six years they have left me alone. But this year they wiped me out. They ate my vegies, my fruit trees and my grape vines! It's all gone. Thank God I have my bees, and we don't have bears!

Regards

Bill Schaefer

[Flyman]

Muscovey ducks get my vote after the initial control. We have about 14 ducks and the ticks (and grasshoppers, etc) are pretty much under control. The ducks are pretty cute when they go on bug patrol....through the lawn, garden, around the pond.....but, as stated above, they are not the tidiest creatures. BTW this is on about 4 acres we try to keep somewhat mown.

[Noelle]

We had terrible deer problems this year too. Any coincidence? Deer and deer ticks?

I am trying to save up for some kind of deer fencing but It is sad since we love the woods and open nature of our home.

I will try a few guineas next spring when we will have more time to raise them before winter. Our predators are a whole level above feral cats, we have fisher cats and coyotes. Thanks for all the great info. It is really helping me develop a plan for our home.

I would love ducks but I am not up for the mess - I still have little ones at home and they get into every gross thing in our yard. The less poop the better. But I sure prefer the sound of ducks to the sound of guinea hens. How to you keep the ducks? do they need a pond, free range, coop?

[hpm08161947]

25 years ago when we first came here - you could walk through the fields and forests and have to pick the ticks off you. A number of years ago we got a few guineas, which have since grown to quite a large number. They are essentially wild now - we do not fieed them - they look out for themselves. We are on about 125 acres so we don't really see them all the time - you can hear them when something different happens, so they are a lot like watch dogs. To make a long story short - we have no ticks - and that is saying something for the rural south. I was told they would eat my bees - but they do not, guess that is the only insect they do not like. Plus their eggs are darn good too - and if you want some pheasant - just go out and bag one - you just can't beat wild guinea meat.