CA Pollination what if question

[LSPender]

This is a question for the commercial beeks,

If CA almond pollination prices fell to $80 to $100 per hive what if anything would you different in your operation.

[jean-marc]

Nothing different over here, on account of the fact that I don't go anyways. I know, I know, not the answer you were looking for.

Jean-Marc

[swarm_trapper]

not go :)

[Tom G. Laury]

Very good question Larry:
I would guess that $100 more or less will be the benchmark growers will try to set next year. There are enough problems collecting this years final payment and there were enough unplaced bees also that I THINK at that pay level many east of the Mississippi would forgo coming. Therefore the first thing I would do is just hold my cards and not commit to price. In spite of all the rhetoric about water and nut price, almonds are still being planted and are profitable with say $140-150 pollination fees. Perception and rumors of low pollination fees may be a cloud with a silver lining. ;)

[Gregg]

I'd still go; not many other options, and leaving them up here over winter is not one of them.

[dbest]

I'll still go. A little price drop might thin out some of the bull, besides what else do the bees have to do that time of year?

[JohnK and Sheri]

We would have to think about it. We always have the option of taking the bees we would have combined to TX and make up numbers down there, split and sell the surplus. Right now we are spending a ton of $$ on queens in the spring, we could raise our own and add that money saved to the equation as well.
It will of course depend on prices, as everything does. I suspect, if some decide not to go to California there will be a lot more demand for bees in the midwest, once those big colonies stop coming back from almonds.
Sheri

[suttonbeeman]

WONT BE GOING!!! debating on going now anyway as it seems like alot of queen problems and the problems getting into that country(ca is a differant country!) Believe I could make more with orange honey, nucs and raising my own queens plus a few to sell!

[dbest]

If it dropped below $90 I would have to re-do some math and see if its more profitable to shake and nuc. Like Rick said I can make more orange by staying home.

[alpha6]

You have to remember that moving bees to Calf. is part of a commercial operation that has to benefit the beekeeper. Speaking to others, if we can't make about 70-80 bucks profit per hive it isn't worth it to send. In order to get bees to Calf. we have to truck them, feed them and in many cases re-queen. Then you have brokers fees and losses to make up. And lets not forget that bees going to Calf. get stressed and always come back with something that needs treating.

That being said, the price will be based on supply and demand and as Tom pointed out the ability to pay. I spoke to one of the larger brokers who stated that while they understand problems some of the almond growers are having getting loans, etc. them not paying for hives placed almost five months ago is going to get them bumped off the list of growers that will be supplied next year. He stated that already he has less hives to place for next year so they are going to be more selective with their clients.

Lastly, much of the underbidding that was seen this year was from desperate beeks that arrived in Calf. with no contracts or as in one specific case that I was told three truck loads of hives that didn't make the cut were pulled from a grove and replaced with good hives. That beek promptly advertised his bees for 70 bucks a hive hoping to at least cover his costs which he later dropped to "make an offer". From what I understand growers that contacted him never took the bees because of the poor state of those hives.

I think you are going to see a settling of prices in Calf. as the market evens itself out. Unless there is some crazy demand that sends the price soaring again, which will bring back all the gold rush beeks I think you can count on a reasonable amount for ea hive which is how it should be.

[BEES4U]

and always come back with something that needs treating.
Can you elaborate on the "something"?

Ernie

[BEES4U]

and in many cases re-queen.

Why are you having problems with the queens?

Drifting?
Ernie

[alpha6]

":Something" is like mites, nosema, etc. When you have hundreds of hives in holding yards they spread whatever they have to each other. As far a re-queening this is usually fall re-queening before they go out to Calf. so before almonds you have a new queen that is really pouring out the eggs so you get good frame counts. Additionally, you will always have a natural amount of hives that go queen less for any number of reasons...old age, stress, crushed during the movement, etc.

Depending on where you are shipping from the bees can be on the road anywhere from 12 hrs to four days. That puts tons of pressure on the bees and if you have a bad trucker they can do lots of damage to your bees parking in the hot sun along the way or sitting for days at a Calf. inspection port. On this thread I don't know how many times I have read of beeks seeing trucks loaded with bees cooking in the sun on their way to Calf. Just because your bees were good during pollination doesn't mean you will get them in good shape on the return...any travel has it's inherent dangers and lets not forget there is nothing for the bees to feed on once in Calf. so you better have them stuffed with feed. I know Tom and Keith and I am sure Shari and John have all said putting bees in almonds isn't such an easy thing and it can and has ended up very bad for some people. There are certain things you can do to mitigate many of these problems but much of what goes on once you ship is out of your hands.

[sqkcrk]

The answer to this what if question will become evident, if and when pollination service prices go down. My bet is that if the current suppliers of bees won't continue to provide them, then someone else will. Even at lower rates.

[JohnK and Sheri]

My bet is that if the current suppliers of bees won't continue to provide them, then someone else will. Even at lower rates.

Maybe not, at least not initially. The reason prices rose was because the western beeks couldn't meet the growing demand. Unless that demand falls considerably there will need to be a price sufficient to make it worth while for the midwest and SE beeks to ship. If all those East of the Mississippi and enough from the midwest stayed home there would be a shortage which would drive prices up again. While prices may (and have) slumped, I really don't think they will drop to $80. We probably wouldn't ship for that price and we are closer than many who have gone out there past years. At those prices you can pretty much kiss off any supplies from the SE, they can make that much honey staying put.....
Sheri

[sqkcrk]

Can they really pass up a sure pay check against an assumed honey crop?

[Tom G. Laury]

Sheri, who said anything about $80?

Oh, sorry, Larry did.

$100, that's the number they are looking for.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Can they really pass up a sure pay check against an assumed honey crop?

You are assuming a sure pay check by going to California? I beg to differ, there is a real risk of not even making your trucking expense...I know quite a few beeks that have had disasters and would have been much better off staying home even if they didn't make honey.
It comes down to a cost benefit analysis. We give up a "sure pay day" every year....we pass up cranberry pollination in lieu of the honey we might (probably!) will make. Especially with honey at a pretty high price, why risk the bees, and incur the expense of moving them unless it is very lucrative to do so? Some years we would have been better off taking them to cranberries. Still, to avoid the headaches and travel (even though it is just down the road a ways) we leave them home. Now if they raised the prices to $140 we would reconsider!;)
Sheri

[dbest]

Can they really pass up a sure pay check against an assumed honey crop?

There is something addicting about making honey. I can't really explain it but if we could still just stay in one place and make honey (and a living) I know I'd do it.

[Keith Jarrett]

There is something addicting about making honey. I can't really explain it .

Really, there is.....

[BEES4U]

Thursday, February 11, 2010

And now we have a shortage of hives!
Ernie

[Riverdog]

Well, If I read it right it wasn't if but what would you do different so you could go. I think I would try to find grassy southern fields or a partner that could take on operations that I could trust. And I mean really trust. I think just putting the girls on a truck and sending would be a better option than doing all the work myself. Our bees need the Almonds and the Almonds need our bees.

Regards