Moving colony from Langstroth to TBH

[wombbat]

Hi all, this is my first post here, although I have been a member of other lists for a few years. I'm on my fourth year with one survivor hive from an original package in 2005. It's thrown off a few swarms and has been very healthy and strong. I was sure that my hive hadn't made it thru our terrible winter, with at least 3 long periods below zero (and I didn't think I'd insulated the hive very well), so I ordered a new package and built a great TBH out of freecycled oak. I installed the package on 4/22 and just took a look today -- looking outstanding with many festooned bees and one gorgeous 8" long comb in the back right next to the follower. I gave them 8 bars to start with and just added 2 right in front of the follower. I'm sure I'll have lots of management questions.

But I discovered that the colony in my Langstroth hive is alive and strong. I bought a second TBH off eBay and want to move my original colony into it. Has anyone done this and what would be the steps? Also, at the time that I move the colony into the TBH, I would like to split it, to give some bees to my friends who helped me build the oak TBH. But I've never done an intentional split. Would it be best to do it all in one fell swoop -- or first do one then the other? I would be so grateful for any advice!

[peletier]

If your TBH will accept Langstroth frames, it's easy. Just move the frames. Keep the broodnest intact by keeping these frames in the same order. Honey and capped brood frames can be alternated with bars. That will help get straight comes built on the bars. Then just keep phasing out the frames until you are all bars.

If frames won't fit...make them fit. Add a stick on top of the frame or cut some off so the frames will hang in the hive. Then operate as above.

You can split your Langstroth at the same time as the transition if it is strong enough. Simplest way would be to make sure your friend gets a frame with eggs so his bees can make a queen.

For what it's worth, I just went the other way....I loved my top bar hives but considering the difficulty handling the combs, and low honey production, I cut the combs off and rubberbanded them into frames.

I now have two "long hives" which accept standard deep frames without foundation. Natural comb, no supers, easier to handle.

I tell you this because I might recommend you keep your Langstroth while you play with your top bar. Compare.

[LenInNorCal]

Today we went and did some maintenance on both TBH and Langstroth and now it is easier to compare....baseball plays with a ball, as does football...that's about it!
OK, so it is poor analogy...but....you asked for comparisons. So.......
One must be very gentle with TBH while Langstroth was obviously meant for quick handling due to production mode. One almost becomes bee-like with the traditional Langstroth....go, go, go so one can move onto the next hive to go....etc.
At my age and temperament, I've done the "go-go" thingy and now wish to be gentle & slow. And if we get honey, so much the better, but as for honey production, can't have much from the Langstroth on the first year, sometimes.

[wombbat]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to finish off the TBH that I bought today. Then I'll see if the frames fit in there. It does seem gigantic -- maybe they will. I, too, see the Langstroth as "go-go-go" and geared almost exclusively towards heavy honey production. I see the bee club here as all commercial producers, who see the TBH as contrary to that goal, and thus it's stupid. No help there. Don't wanna be seen as a "bee-HAVER" rather than a bee-keeper.

If they don't fit -- run off with frames of brood and try to attach them to the top bar?

[Abha]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to finish off the TBH that I bought today. Then I'll see if the frames fit in there. It does seem gigantic -- maybe they will. I, too, see the Langstroth as "go-go-go" and geared almost exclusively towards heavy honey production. I see the bee club here as all commercial producers, who see the TBH as contrary to that goal, and thus it's stupid. No help there. Don't wanna be seen as a "bee-HAVER" rather than a bee-keeper.

If they don't fit -- run off with frames of brood and try to attach them to the top bar?

Here is what Michael Bush (a guy who has used both hive types) has to say (http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm) about honey production with regard to both hive types:

"Question: Which makes more honey? A top bar hive or a Langstroth hive?

Answer: It comes down to management differences. If you have the TBH where you can get to it easily and you check it weekly during a heavy flow and manage their space by harvesting frequently, I think it's about even. If the TBH is in an outyard and you don't get there often or even if it's in your backyard and you don't get there often, the Langstroth will probably make more honey.

While a TBH takes more FREQUENT manipulation it does not take more labor as you don't have to lift and move boxes around when doing inspections."

I am 61 and female, I am relieved about not having to deal with the weight associated with traditional hives.

Abha

[gmcharlie]

honey production can be the same as a langstroth if you do a cpl simple things. make sure you have open space, and provide entrances near the honey area as well as near brood.
Keep in mind that since when you harvest honey in a top bar, you take the wax, its very important to not let them ever stop wax production.

Once bees are in wax makeing mode they do it well, when they stop around late july, they are done for the year at makeing wax. don't let them get full and jammed up early! I use mine for chunk honey and comb honey a LOT easier than ross rounds and such.....

[LenInNorCal]

GMCharlie,
I just gave you some advice in another thread and now it is clear you need none of mine. Sorry about that, but I trust we'll both get over it.
Now I've got a question for you, or others: how does one harvest honey? For some 65 million year old reason the bees want to hang around their what they've produced and they won't listen to a simple bee brush. So in a month or two I may want to rob them of a bit of comb, so how? I know they'll follow it into a bucket....then what? since yelling never worked either.

[wombbat]

I tried the Lang frames in the new TBH and they do fit. Hallelujah. However, when I opened the Langstroth hive this weekend, it was positively JAMMED with brood -- three medium supers of brood -- and hardly any honey. Interesting... I clearly can't put ALL the brood into the TBH. I think my plans is: take one super of brood, making sure they have some honey, put it on a new bottom board and give it to my friend. Making sure I have my queen, take five frames of the remaining brood and some honey and move that into the TBH, along with as many bees as I can shake in there.

But what do I do with the remaining brood? If I put it all in there (about 16 frames) there won't be room for much of anything else. Do I destroy it?

[LenInNorCal]

Wombat, you are a good friend. After you give your medium of brood away to this friend, that leaves you with two. What is wrong with that much brood at this time of the season? You are thriving and all is good! You're going to put half a into the TBH, which leave you about the right amount for this time of year. So what if they don't have honey? You have robust queen and a whole summer in front of you! I don't get it, but you've earned bragging rights. So go ahead my friend.
But I must wonder, are they are mostly drone brood? Are they almost all capped drone? Like 90% or more? Does she lay a good pattern or is a scattered pattern? As I understand it, that may be the first sign of swarming. Are they keeping your queen from laying, making her "loose weight" by running her around and not allowing her to lay? If none of that, you just got a horny and fertile queen. We should all be so lucky, eh?

[gmcharlie]

GMCharlie,
I just gave you some advice in another thread and now it is clear you need none of mine. Sorry about that, but I trust we'll both get over it.
Now I've got a question for you, or others: how does one harvest honey? For some 65 million year old reason the bees want to hang around their what they've produced and they won't listen to a simple bee brush. So in a month or two I may want to rob them of a bit of comb, so how? I know they'll follow it into a bucket....then what? since yelling never worked either.

well if you don't want to brush them you can do it the way I do, I open the hive in late evening (about an hour before dark) shake off the bees as best I can and hang the comb next to the opening. the bees need to be in the hive will mmake them walk or fly into the hive, I pick up the bars an hour after dark.... works best in cool weather, real warm and they may hang on the bar all night. I use a duck wing as my brush....

[Natalie]

A duck WING or a feather? ;)

[gmcharlie]

I tried the Lang frames in the new TBH and they do fit. Hallelujah. However, when I opened the Langstroth hive this weekend, it was positively JAMMED with brood -- three medium supers of brood -- and hardly any honey. Interesting... I clearly can't put ALL the brood into the TBH. I think my plans is: take one super of brood, making sure they have some honey, put it on a new bottom board and give it to my friend. Making sure I have my queen, take five frames of the remaining brood and some honey and move that into the TBH, along with as many bees as I can shake in there.

But what do I do with the remaining brood? If I put it all in there (about 16 frames) there won't be room for much of anything else. Do I destroy it?

A feather works great, I use a cluster of feathers from the wingtip of ducks we process....(eat) I can never remeber to get a bee brush and I cant flick certian bees very well with it.... just a choice.....

heavens no! don't destroy it, start a new hive!!!!! let tehm rais their own queen..... walkaway split! you didn't mention how deep your supers are?? I call the 9" deeps and the rest supers but that is not universal....

Its time to add empty supers for honey production... great build up split to a new hive now put them to work.....