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Ted n Ms
04-16-2009, 09:32 PM
I have been using red cedar for bottoms and tops but this is a lot of work. I wondered about treated plywood. It was made with arsenic but i think it has been changed to something safer. Could it be painted, anybody know. Plywood would be a lot faster.

Bodo
04-16-2009, 09:51 PM
Ya, no As in treated lumber anymore. I believe that it's mostly Cu based ingredients. It's safer, but it's rough on fasteners.

dragonfly
04-16-2009, 10:06 PM
I have been using red cedar for bottoms and tops but this is a lot of work. I wondered about treated plywood. It was made with arsenic but i think it has been changed to something safer. Could it be painted, anybody know. Plywood would be a lot faster.

I believe I read that you should wait 6 months before painting treated wood. I think it had to do with high moisture content???

slickbrightspear
04-16-2009, 10:18 PM
Don't they treat the wood to kill insects

alpha6
04-16-2009, 10:28 PM
Just use regular plywood. Paint the outside and don't worry about the inside, the bees will keep that just fine. Treated plywood is more then double the price of a regular sheet of 3/4 in. You should be able to get ten tops or bottoms from one sheet.

dbest
04-17-2009, 06:22 AM
I have over 500 pallets made with the old treated plywood. I think it has arsenic in it. I bought a whole semi load when they changed over. The only problem I have is that the staples and nails rust and the wood remains the same.

Hobie
04-17-2009, 07:57 AM
The treated wood I've seen these days is practically dripping wet, and annoying to work with. It will eat through standard (non-galvanized) fasteners in a year.

Personally, I would be more comfortable using regular plywood (or, for $$$, marine grade with a better laminating glue), and sealing the end grain thoroughly with epoxy. Moisture will get in mostly thru the end grain.

Michael Bush
04-17-2009, 06:59 PM
The standard green treated lumber from your lumberyard has insecticide in it. It will kill bees.

dbest
04-17-2009, 08:40 PM
I must have super bees then. Either that or nobody has told them yet that they should be dead.

Barry
04-17-2009, 11:03 PM
Yeah, I can't imagine that it would kill the bees. Not that I would choose to use it in beekeeping, but the purpose of the treatment is to preserve the wood, not kill insects that come into contact with it. Since bees aren't boring insects and wouldn't ingest it, I don't understand how it would kill them.

Ross
04-18-2009, 07:16 AM
The treatment in green wood is for boring insects and fungus's. It won't kill bees once full dried, but I wouldn't eat honey from it. Remember, it was banned from playgrounds, not recommended for picnic tables or raised vegetable beds. Sawdust is carsagenic.

Ted n Ms
04-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Well ...Ross i don't think i'll be using teated wood cause i like honey. :)

Bizzybee
04-18-2009, 11:10 AM
:scratch: You don't like the idea of living in the land of milk and honey? Course I never had wood milk but it can't be all bad.................



WHAAAAT??? Yaw think I could pass that one up?? Are you nuts!! :lpf::lpf:

Michael Bush
04-18-2009, 12:11 PM
>I must have super bees then. Either that or nobody has told them yet that they should be dead.

Just because some of your bees are still alive does not mean it is not killing bees. If you build a entire hive of the green treated stuff from the lumberyard (I'm not refering to the treated stuff from Mann Lake etc.) you will put them at a great disadvantage and shorten their lives considerably. Not to mention a hive is a food container and I don't want that in my food.

dbest
04-18-2009, 11:03 PM
>I must have super bees then. Either that or nobody has told them yet that they should be dead.

Just because some of your bees are still alive does not mean it is not killing bees. If you build a entire hive of the green treated stuff from the lumberyard (I'm not refering to the treated stuff from Mann Lake etc.) you will put them at a great disadvantage and shorten their lives considerably. Not to mention a hive is a food container and I don't want that in my food.

All 2500 look good. On my 15 year old treated pallets. I would like to see some research to back up the theory that it kills bees.

Bizzybee
04-18-2009, 11:51 PM
The treated lumber has harsher chemicals than Copper Naphthenate which uses copper as the active ingredient. It operates on the same premise though, that requires the wood to be chewed by the invader to get a lethal dose. It's not intended to kill everything that touches it. It's also there to prevent mold and fungus growth.

If there is any transfer to the honey or comb by tracking of the bees, you would think would be fairly minimal and would diminish with time as the chemicals are degraded and washed away from the surface?

I do recall the subject coming up at length maybe a couple of years back. I don't know if there was any test data made available or not or if it was just conjecture? You may be able to find it in the archives by searching?

Ted n Ms
04-19-2009, 08:56 AM
The treated lumber has harsher chemicals than Copper Naphthenate which uses copper as the active ingredient. It operates on the same premise though, that requires the wood to be chewed by the invader to get a lethal dose. It's not intended to kill everything that touches it. It's also there to prevent mold and fungus growth.

If there is any transfer to the honey or comb by tracking of the bees, you would think would be fairly minimal and would diminish with time as the chemicals are degraded and washed away from the surface?

I do recall the subject coming up at length maybe a couple of years back. I don't know if there was any test data made available or not or if it was just conjecture? You may be able to find it in the archives by searching?

MY intention was to put a heavy coat of paint on the inside and outside of the treated wood ....but i don't think i will try it.

Michael Bush
04-19-2009, 09:20 PM
I sat at a dinner table with Marion Ellis, Clarence Collison, Tom Webster and a few other beekeepers. The discussion was about someone who made their hives from treated lumber (not the copper napthanate but the stuff from the lumber yard) and the hives never thrived. All three of these Entomologists agreed that it was a very bad idea and that the insecticide in the treated lumber was the cause of them not doing well.

I would consider this an expert opinion.

I use the treated lumber for stands. But the bees don't live in the stands. I would not use it for bottoms or tops or any part the bees come in contact with during they daily lives.

You all, of course, may do what you wish.

dbest
04-20-2009, 07:24 AM
"Expert Opinions" are not facts.

BEES4U
04-20-2009, 09:26 AM
Here is some data from the U of Florida:
Using Wood Preservatives
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AA/AA24400.pdf
A paper by M.A. Kalnins and Benjamin Detroy,
“Effect of Wood Preservative Treatment of
Beehives on Honey Bees and Hive Products,”
Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry, Vol. 32,pp. 1176-1180, 1984 makes some provocative
conclusions:Experiments show that hives treated withcreosote, pentachlorophenol (PCP), tributyl tin
oxide (TBTO) and chromated copper arsenate
(CCA) were associated with adverse effect on
bees and left residues of preservative
chemicals in bees, honey and wax. All were
also associated with poor winter survival of
colonies. In particular, PCP translocated from
treated hive to honey, bees and wax (in an
increasing order). Greatest concentration of
PCP was in beeswax (30 to 55 times the
controls, which had detectable levels
themselves). This is important as beeswax has
a number of uses like cosmetics for which
purity is essential.
CCA treatment resulted in elevated arsenic
and chromium levels in bees, arsenic in some
cases in the lethal range. Chromium levels
although elevated were below 1 part per
million (ppm) in both bees and honey. TBTO
treatment resulted in tin levels of several ppm
in bees and wax. The authors suggest,
therefore, that beekeepers not use PCP, TBTO
or CCA for beehive treatment. CCA could be
used only on hive parts not in contact with
bees. Any materials with an arsenic
component are potentially very damaging to
bees.
The authors found few adverse findings resulted
from treatments of beehives with a preservative-free
water-repellent solution, however, the treatment did
not appear to provide long-term protection against
decay, something often desperately required under
Florida conditions. Thus, the use of preservatives is
considered essential by many beekeepers in the state.
A follow-up article by Kalnins and Erickson,
“Extending the Life of Beehives With and Without
Preservatives,” American Bee Journal, Vol. 126, No.
7, July 1986, pp. 488-491, indicates that copper
napththenate, copper 8-quinolinolate and acid copper
chromate (ACC) are the best preservative options at
present.
Copper NapththenateUsually sold as a concentrate or solution ready
to use. The concentrate is 8 percent copper, a viscous
green liquid. For dip, soak or brush application it
usually is diluted with mineral spirits or paint thinner
to a 1 percent copper solution (temperate zones) or 2
percent copper solution (subtropical zones). It may
bleed through some paints and should be allowed to
thoroughly dry before being painted.
Regards,
Ernie

bigfoot1960
05-19-2009, 05:49 PM
Almost all treated wood is treated with an insecticide. That could kill your bees or get chemicals in your honey. I am a lumber treater and beekeeper I would never use treated wood of any kind for inside the hive.

Ben Brewcat
05-19-2009, 07:52 PM
What's the insecticide? Since cupric arsenate was banned for all but marine or foundation uses, cooper quat is all you're likely to find in PT lumber, no?

bigfoot1960
05-23-2009, 12:01 PM
We treat copper azole and the pesticide used is tebuconazole. I do not know what the chem. is in ACQ treating solutions.

Josh Carmack
06-23-2009, 09:17 PM
Tebuconazole is a triazole fungicide used agriculturally to treat plant pathogenic fungi.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebuconazole

bigfoot1960
06-26-2009, 06:24 AM
Here is the web site that list tebuconazole as a pesticide and gives info on it.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_ChemUse.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35028

Chick
06-26-2009, 04:15 PM
They make special fasteners for the treated plywood. It is not stainless steel, but some other type of alloy. I bought a case of them for my nail gun, but I don't remember what it was.

Josh Carmack
06-28-2009, 08:00 AM
Here is the web site that list tebuconazole as a pesticide and gives info on it.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_ChemUse.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35028

Pesticide and insecticide are two different things. A pesticide is anything than will get rid of a pest. The target pest in the case of this chemical being a fungi. It is listed on the site you quoted, and any other site you check as a fungicide. That does not necessarily make it toxic or non toxic to bees or other insects. What I'm meaning to say is this neither determines it safe or unsafe for bees. It's listed use is for fungi treatment on several crops. But beings as it is pressure soaked into the wood, and not able to be exposed to the bees in large quantities, the effect is most likely negligible.

Chick
06-28-2009, 08:21 AM
The treated wood today uses a fungicide, and a 2nd treatment chemical that resists termite infestation. This treatment uses copper. You can use your own decision on whether to use it or not.

Sundance
06-28-2009, 12:42 PM
Pesticide is a blanket term that covers, and includes,
all the "cides". A brief sample...... Insecticide, Herbicide,
Fungicide, Mitecide, Sundanceacide, etc.

Keith Jarrett
06-28-2009, 06:49 PM
Sundanceacide.

Where can I get some of that stuff at?? Or is that in the Obama stim plan. :) :)

letsrodeo
06-28-2009, 08:16 PM
[QUOTE=Sundance;439534]Pesticide is a blanket term that covers, and UOTE]
NO NO :no::no::no:
AS A HOLDER OF LISENSE TO USE CONTROLED CHEMICALS IN THE STATE OF FL.NO.

winevines
06-28-2009, 08:46 PM
>ard (I'm not refering to the treated stuff from Mann Lake etc.) you will put them at a great disadvantage and shorten their lives considerably. Not to mention a hive is a food container and I don't want that in my food.

What about the green treated stuff (outer covers) from MANN LAKE- is that OK to use?

Michael Bush
06-29-2009, 01:22 PM
>What about the green treated stuff (outer covers) from MANN LAKE- is that OK to use?

I won't use it but it shouldn't hurt the bees. It's the stuff that is intended for that purpose (preserving bee hives without hurting bees).