small cell questions

[Bean]

Pondering small cell but I've two questions:

1) If your bees are all regressed to small cell, but you're doing open mating, and the queen mates with drones that are not from small cell hives - what is the result as regards the cell building in the hive?

2) If mites reproduce faster than bees (4-times?) then wouldn't the mites begin to regress as well (small islands have small mammals who are descended from larger mammals)?

[Michael Bush]

>1) If your bees are all regressed to small cell, but you're doing open mating, and the queen mates with drones that are not from small cell hives - what is the result as regards the cell building in the hive?

Genetics has little to nothing to do with it.

>2) If mites reproduce faster than bees (4-times?) then wouldn't the mites begin to regress as well (small islands have small mammals who are descended from larger mammals)?

Mites do not reproduce faster than bees. by 4 times. One foundress mite in a worker cell usually manages somewhere between 1 and 2 viable offspring in one brood cycle. The brood cycle on small cell is 19 days instead of 21. That's between 0 and 1 offspring instead of between 1 and 2. The size of the mites is irrelevant. If mites were allowed to adapt to their host they would get into a relationship where they do not kill their host. That would be the natural order of things. They would not develop a more lethal life cycle.

[Bean]

Thanks for clearing that up

[sqkcrk]

I have a small cell question too, sorta. If one starts out w/ regular cell size comb and uses it for years and years, w/ all of those cacoons building up in the cells, do the bees become smaller? Or what?

[Bean]

squkcrk -
I hope someone answers your question. That's where I was going with the genetics question...do the bees get smaller on small cell? And if used comb gets smaller in diameter over the years, wouldn't that be the same as small cell comb (assuming comb has never had chemicals on it...and you're not switching it out)?

But if the bees on small cell are smaller, what happens if a queen breeds with a larger drone? I still don't get it.

I come from 4-legged livestock breeding and large buck with small doe can be a problem. Not, the same, of course, but small queen, large drones: when the egg hatches is there a potential problem if the drones genes lead to a larger bee? From what M. Bush says, the answer is "no", but why not?

And, to use this response to further my quiry about mites...
M. Bush wrote "if mites were allowed to adapt to their host they would get into a relationship where they do not kill their host. That would be the natural order of things. They would not develop a more lethal life cycle." Why can't they adapt on large cell, simply by breeding from those who don't die off to varroa?

[samak]

And, to use this response to further my quiry about mites...
M. Bush wrote "if mites were allowed to adapt to their host they would get into a relationship where they do not kill their host. That would be the natural order of things. They would not develop a more lethal life cycle." Why can't they adapt on large cell, simply by breeding from those who don't die off to varroa?


There are many questions and answers about bees on the following webpage. Scroll down to the question that says: "How are feral bees able to cope with varroa mites?"
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/Html%20files/Archives.html
The short answer says: "Because the mites are less virulent, not because the bees are resistant"
Then there is an explanation about it that goes into details.

Tom Seeley at cornell university did a study about it.
Seeley, T. D. (2007). Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States. Apidologie, 38: 19–29.

[Michael Bush]

>The short answer says: "Because the mites are less virulent, not because the bees are resistant"

That's Seeley's assumption. I think he's partially right. The other part, though, is he took the feral bees off of natural sized cells and put them on standard foundation.

>I have a small cell question too, sorta. If one starts out w/ regular cell size comb and uses it for years and years, w/ all of those cacoons building up in the cells, do the bees become smaller?

According to Grout, up until the point where they chew them out because they fall below some threshold.

>I hope someone answers your question. That's where I was going with the genetics question...do the bees get smaller on small cell?

Yes. But that is not genetics. It's just physical space while they are developing. It's environment, not genes that causes them to be smaller.

>And if used comb gets smaller in diameter over the years, wouldn't that be the same as small cell comb (assuming comb has never had chemicals on it...and you're not switching it out)?

Yes. But it will require 30 years or so of accumulated cocoons which gives diseases a lot of places to hide. With small cell those will get chewed out before that many accumulate.

>But if the bees on small cell are smaller, what happens if a queen breeds with a larger drone? I still don't get it.

That's because you're still thinking genetics.

>I come from 4-legged livestock breeding and large buck with small doe can be a problem. Not, the same, of course, but small queen, large drones: when the egg hatches is there a potential problem if the drones genes lead to a larger bee?

The bees size is directly realated to cell size. The only issue is how much is cell size determined by genetics. If genes play into this at all it is at that point.

> From what M. Bush says, the answer is "no", but why not?

Because it's about environment not genetics. Bees on large cell build large cells because that's the blueprint you laid out for them. Bees on natural cell build what is natural, which is smaller. Bees on small cell foundation build smaller because that's the blueprint laid out for them. Bees are larger and smaller, not because of genetics but because of the size cell they develop in. This had been observed as far back as Huber in the late 1700s.

>Why can't they adapt on large cell, simply by breeding from those who don't die off to varroa?

I don't know that they can't. But you have put the bees at a decided disadvantage with a two day longer gestation and twice as many offspring from the Varroa.

[Bean]

Thank you both for the information. Now I get the "size is related to growth space, not genes" concept. And the link was facinating.