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View Full Version : Carnies, Russians, Frugal Behavior and V. Mites



NeilV
02-21-2009, 02:29 PM
Okay, I suspect that this is stupid post but I generally don't let that stop me.

I read somewhere on here that efforts may be underway to select for Russian Bees that have an earlier spring buildup, since that is what many commericial beeks want. However, somebody inquired whether that could also decrease varroa resistance. I guess the real point/question was whether breeding Russians to act more like Italians could also result in a bee that also has the problems that Italians have dealing with Varroa. In that case, it arguably would save a lot of trouble to skip Russians altogether and work with Italian stock from the start.

That got me to thinking about what the behavior similarities and mite resistance differences between Russians and Carnies. Problem is, I've never kept Carnies and don't know anybody who has. So in addition to the inherent problems with me thinking, I also don't know what I'm thinking about for the most part.

Which leads me to my thoughts/questions:

1. Is there really an effort to select for Russians that build up earlier in the year?

2. Aren't Carnies similar to Russians in that they also build up later in the spring than most Italians?

3. In general terms, how does the mite resistance of Carnies compare to that of Russians?

4. If Carnies and Russians both have later spring buildup but Russians are better at dealing with mites, does that suggest that Russian bee frugal characteristics are not the cause of the bee's ability to deal with mites on their own?

5. For that matter, is there even universal agreement that Russian bees can handle the mites better than other varieties/races of bees?

adamf
02-22-2009, 05:11 AM
I guess the real point/question was whether breeding Russians to act more like Italians could also result in a bee that also has the problems that Italians have dealing with Varroa. In that case, it arguably would save a lot of trouble to skip Russians altogether and work with Italian stock from the start.

Good question. There is a fine distinction between a "type" of bee, and what traits the "type" has. The logic to using Russian bees was they were thriving close to varroa and had been selected (naturally through surviving and by breeding) to perform with varroa: they had some tolerance to the parasite.

Others use Italians and mutts and "who-knows-or-cares-what-as-long-as-it-lives-and-makes-honey" types. These too are thriving. They are different then Russians, yet they also have some tolerance.

That there are several choices of mite tolerant honey bees, is great! Some wouldn't touch Russians with a ten-foot pole. Some wouldn't use an "Italian" type ever. Mixing up "types" in breeding, will eventually make new types. That's how selection works. Hopefully, all types will eventually be mite tolerant and productive for beekeepers until the next pathogen comes along...

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com

Joel
02-25-2009, 10:47 PM
I can't speak about Russians but I have used alot of cari's. Carni's keep scarily small winter cluster and survive well. I think the slower spring buildup may just be the brood cycles it takes to get a large enough cluster to cover spring brood nests. From what I have read this is similar to Russian bees. In regards to mites, I've used NWC from Strachans and the offspring which Randy Oliverez and crew breed. I still lose hives to mites. However I do have hives which survive and actually thrive with mites in the hive. Don't know why or how, just an observation and I've seen it repeated here.

I'm waiting to get an opinion from my friend and neighbor Peggjam on the Russians as he has been working with them for a couple of years now in his breeding and if they are worthy I'd buy stock from him.

JohnK and Sheri
02-25-2009, 11:29 PM
I read somewhere on here that efforts may be underway to select for Russian Bees that have an earlier spring buildup, since that is what many commericial beeks want.
I heard a presentation from the Russian Queen Breeders at the Fresno AHPA convention in which they indicated they were (planning on?) working on a Russian bee with the Italian trait of large winter clusters. Really now, what better else to say to a group of almond pollinators?
While spring buildup is one trait commercials want, large winter clusters and the ability to be easily manipulated to that point is the big issue for those of us sending bees out to California almonds: we need the big clusters in January, when Carnies and Russian clusters can be the size of grapefruits.


In that case, it arguably would save a lot of trouble to skip Russians altogether and work with Italian stock from the start.
That is our philosophy right now and the route we are taking, but mite resistance is still a goal to be pursued . If the mite resistance of the Russians could be combined with the positive traits of the Italians, well, that would be a good thing, no?
Sheri

BEES4U
02-26-2009, 05:46 AM
Here is a web site, URL that provides a good chart for comparing different bee stocks/ strains:

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/catalog_wo1.html#anchor2391365

Regards,
Ernie
(Queen Breeder)