Land Survey

[wayacoyote]

We live in kentucky; I've looked at my Deed over and over and I'm totally confused by the boundary description. I'm hoping you can help me. It is worded in a way that I've never understood. It doesn't take angles off of True or Magnetic North like I'd do it. You know "start here and go this far at this azmuth."

Instead it starts: "at a point in a drain on the west side of Highway ___ said point is located S 71dg. 24'51"W at distance of 4.66' from a set rebar..."

Throughout the description it refers to such angles as "S 44 deg. 55' 0" W" and "N 84deg 36' 5" W"

I understand the degree, minute, second angles. I don't understand why it is using S and W or N and W. I'm used to just taking angles off of true or magnetic N. I could get it if it is saying "X degrees north of west" or "X degrees West of north". But I'm confused all together.

I'd like to mark my boundary. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pay someone to do it.

[The Honey House]

"I'm afraid I'm going to have to pay someone to do it. "

Probably the safest way if you really want to know the lines.
Sometimes if you're lucky, you can get the neighbor to pitch in a little
on the cost of the shared line.

[Barry Digman]

Get your hands on this piece of software. Your legal description should have a point of beginning that's relatively easy to find (the rebar, for example). When you have that and the legal description from your deed it's really pretty easy to find the corners.


http://deedchek.com/

[MapMan]

We live in kentucky; I've looked at my Deed over and over and I'm totally confused by the boundary description. I'm hoping you can help me. It is worded in a way that I've never understood. It doesn't take angles off of True or Magnetic North like I'd do it. You know "start here and go this far at this azmuth."

Instead it starts: "at a point in a drain on the west side of Highway ___ said point is located S 71dg. 24'51"W at distance of 4.66' from a set rebar..."

Throughout the description it refers to such angles as "S 44 deg. 55' 0" W" and "N 84deg 36' 5" W"

I understand the degree, minute, second angles. I don't understand why it is using S and W or N and W. I'm used to just taking angles off of true or magnetic N. I could get it if it is saying "X degrees north of west" or "X degrees West of north". But I'm confused all together.

I'd like to mark my boundary. I'm afraid I'm going to have to pay someone to do it.

Your property is surveyed using a metes and bounds description.

You will have a description starting off at a specified point, and the bearing, rather than using a clockwise measure out of 360 degrees, will indicate a direction (N or S), and then indicate a degree measured out of 90 degrees, then another direction (W or E).

For example, your S 44 deg. 55' 0" W means that the bearing is 44 deg. 55' 0" clockwise (to the west) from South.

The reasoning is that with metes and bounds, you will get the same measure of degree, regardless of which property boundary you are following.

MM

Here's a diagram showing bearings (http://www.iammea.org/ggingras/cad115/gifbin/compass_rose1.gif).

[wayacoyote]

MM,
I think I see what you're saying. So I'm either taking my angle from E or W of N or S. the link you gave is pretty clear. As for my starting point, I have to find another person's deed to work off of as my property is described by their property (oh, and their property is now someone else's property.)

This is all common, I'm sure. However, the land I grew up on had a set corner marker, so it was easy to find our boundary lines. The closest USGS marker I can find is 3-4 miles away. The rebar mentioned above is not official, except that the surveyer who subdivided the land mentions it...

Anyway, you guys have helped. Thanks.

Oh, without buying a transit, what would be the best way to track these angles. Obviously my compass doesn't do minutes and seconds.

[MapMan]

MM,
The rebar mentioned above is not official, except that the surveyer who subdivided the land mentions it...

Anyway, you guys have helped. Thanks.

Oh, without buying a transit, what would be the best way to track these angles. Obviously my compass doesn't do minutes and seconds.

The rebar is most likely a reference point; used to pinpoint the actual survey stake. Use a metal detector to find it, then measure to find your stake.

Try to see if you can rent a construction transit. Accurate enough for your use in finding your property stakes, and verifying lines.

MM

[George Fergusson]

MM pretty much covered it. To put it another way Waya, bearings are directions measured from north or south to the east or west such that they're never more than 90°

So the compass circle is divided into 4 quadrants, NE, SE, SW, and NW. Due North would be N 0° E or N 0° W (both are straight up). Due East would be N 90° E or S 90° E.

North East would be N 45° E but it would NOT be S 135° E because bearings are ever equal to or less than 90°

Similarly, SW would be S 45° W.

I think the reason why bearings are in common use is because it's easy to reverse them. If you're on a course of S 15° 30' E and you want to go back in the direction from whence you've come, you just reverse the quadrant- SE becomes NW so the opposite course would be N 15° 30' W. No math required. If you were using Azimuths (angles measure to the right from North), then S 15° 30' E is really an Azimuth of 180° - 15° 30' = 164° 30'. Now if you want to go the other direction you gotta add 180° to that. Math, not necessarily easy to do in your head.

There is another reason why bearings became popular with land surveyors involving the use of latitudes and departures to calculate areas but that's another story.

As far as interpreting your deed, good luck! There are invariably going to be conflicting calls in your deed so you'll need to know how to weigh them. For example, IN GENERAL, calls for monuments govern over everything else- a monument, called for in the deed and found undisturbed controls even if it's in the wrong place.... natural monuments govern over man made monuments. Calls to adjoining land owners are in fact calls to record monuments. Bearings govern over distances since in most cases, people were better able to measure directions (with a compass) than they were able to measure distances (estimating, pacing, dragging a clothes line, etc). Distances govern over areas. Area in fact is the lowest on the list of priorities. If you deed is a metes and bounds description and concludes with "containing 5 acres more or less" and you end up with 3 acres, well that's just tough :)

Of course the intent of the parties governs over everything else. The courts feel that in the absence of information to the contrary, the words of the deed are the best evidence of the intent of the parties and as such need to be carefully and strictly interpreted.

As a once-licensed land surveyor, I cannot recommend that you survey your own property any more than I would recommend you remove your own appendix if I was a doctor. That said, it's your land and you're entitled to evaluate your boundaries in light of the words in your deed, the only question being your qualifications for doing so. I would recommend that if you don't hire a land surveyor to survey your land that you at least consult with one and get their opinion on the controlling elements of your deed, even if you have to pay them for an hour of their time.

[George Fergusson]

Oh yeah. The description suggests that your land was in fact surveyed. Obtain a copy of the survey! It may be recorded at the county registry of deeds or it may be on file someplace else.

[wayacoyote]

thanks, guys.
My goals are to:
1) know what exactly I bought when I purchased my land so I know what's mine and what isn't
2) to "post" my land on the boundaries
3) to be able to manage my land without encroaching on my neighbors

We found a marajuana garden on our back 20 acres. Our two "neighbors" live out of state and purchased the land, like us, for retirement. I figured, with my deed, I could at least put some posts at the points described on the deed. It has more than 20 points, so it isn't like a city lot or something simple. And I don't want to end up in an altercation with a trespasser who isn't actually trespassing.

Maybe getting a surveyor would be a good idea and I could mark the points as he locates them?

[George Fergusson]

thanks, guys.
My goals are to:
1) know what exactly I bought when I purchased my land so I know what's mine and what isn't
2) to "post" my land on the boundaries
3) to be able to manage my land without encroaching on my neighbors


Short of recovering original monuments set by the original surveyor and called for in your deed, there's little chance of you being able to accurately locate and monument your corners yourself. In other words if your deed calls for a stone wall and you can find that wall, you're golden. If it calls for a pipe by a large pine and you find that pipe and pine, you're golden. If you're good with a compass and can rough tape you should be able to walk your boundaries and some searching once you know roughly where to look should turn up corner markers if any were actually set.

Keep in mind that whatever the surveyor used for north may or may not (and probably isn't) current local magnetic north so bearings given in your deed might not be readily usable with a hand compass.

Again, I'd try to obtain a copy of the original survey and if the original surveyor is still around, arrange a visit to talk about your property.


Maybe getting a surveyor would be a good idea and I could mark the points as he locates them?

It may be just a matter of recovering the original corners.

[slickbrightspear]

If it was a farm before you bought it call the farm office and find out the name of the farmer who had it before you and they can tell you who did the last survey on it and you can probably go to that surveyors office and get a plat drawing as well which is helpful. that is what I ended up doing.

[Hobie]

I haven't read all the posts here, but the keys in many deed descriptions are where it says "... to an iron pin" or "...to a concrete monument" or the like. These can often be located with a metal detector (there is a metal rod in most concrete monuments.) Of course, these can be lost, buried, or damaged over time.

I had a house in Ohio where I traced the deed back to the 1800's. Over at least 100 years, one property corner was described as "...to the oak tree of 16" diameter." Yes, the clerks were lazy and copied things back then, too!

You may be able to track down a retired surveyor who would help you for reduced cost. This is what I did. A good surveyor does just as well with a transit as with GPS.

Just be glad you have no curved boundaries. Those are a real joy.

[wayacoyote]

Just be glad you have no curved boundaries. Those are a real joy.


Oh, I've got the curved boundaries. 2 or 3 of them, I think. The land was originally surveyed for dividing when my wife went to buy it (before we met). So the surveyer is still around even if he's working in a nearby town. There are some metal stakes on the land. He flagged them and some trees. I've taken GPS coordinates on what I could find. I guess I should find the first pin that he mentions and start from there.

[beedeetee]

I would start by looking at all of the courses and deciding which one would be the easiest to define. A road, wall, etc are the easiest and define the "basis of bearings". We (land surveyors) can pretty much call anything "north".

So if a straight road is given a bearing you can use your compass to see what correction you should use. The first course is a drain (culvert?) and an iron rod but I think they were only 4-5 feet a part so that won't give you a very good guide.

Finding the surveyor and getting a copy of the survey may tell you what the basis of bearings is and if he set monuments along the curved courses. The survey may note other RP's (reference points) like how far a tree is from a corner. He may have set additional monuments that are not mentioned in the deed.

I am licensed in rectangular system states not metes and bounds so I can't really advise too much but I generally understand the concepts. I can tell you that land surveyors get a lot of work when people do their own surveys, so use caution, but I always try to get people to at least look for their monuments.

[Hobie]

I figure that metes and bounds survey descriptions exist just so people have a place to use the word "thence"!

You can create the boundary on something like AutoCAD, which then gives you a visual of the shape, if that would help.

[carbide]

Keep in mind that the distances described on the deed are based on a horizontal plane and if your boundarys proceed up and down slopes, what you measure along the slope is not going to be accurate. To compensate, you must take into consideration the angle of the slope.

[wayacoyote]

OH, wow. Thanks, Carbide. I'd been wondering about that as we've discussed our acreage. We have nearly 50 acres, but it is all up and down hill. so the good news is that I may actually have more than 50 acres, but most of it is vertical. Who-who, I might have 200 acres!!

[beedeetee]

Now you just have to find a crop that grows perpendicular to the slope so you can take advantage of all that "extra" land.