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Anthony Ritenour
02-10-2009, 03:41 PM
I have read of using a fogger as a natural method of controlling varroa, but I have read that it is dangerous due to the fogger possibly catching the oil on fire. Have any of you used this method? Is it effective and is it safe? Thanks.

honeyman46408
02-10-2009, 05:00 PM
I have read of using a fogger as a natural method of controlling varroa, but I have read that it is dangerous due to the fogger possibly catching the oil on fire. Have any of you used this method? Is it effective and is it safe? Thanks.

I use the foger with FGMO and I think it works fine and have heard of fires but have not had one it will take some parctice to learn how to use it.

peletier
02-10-2009, 05:27 PM
I use the fogger. Yes, occasionally the oil can ignite at the end of the fogger...looks like a little flame thrower. I take responsibilty because I think it is my heavy trigger finger that does it. I am very careful where I point it. I've learned not to try to blast the fog into the hive. :no: It will drift in from a distance.

I feel it is an effective treatment.

Anthony Ritenour
02-11-2009, 07:44 AM
Thanks. I'll give it a try. Do you know if it is also effective against hive beetles?

Bud Dingler
02-11-2009, 10:19 AM
There is zero scientific data to support the use of mineral oil fogging for varroa treatment. Why not use a real safe and proven treatment like Apiguard or Formic Acid?

Kieck
02-11-2009, 11:37 AM
What part of heating a foreign substance to a high temperature and atomizing it into a bee hive is "natural?"

honeyman46408
02-11-2009, 11:54 AM
There is zero scientific data to support the use of mineral oil fogging for varroa treatment. Why not use a real safe and proven treatment like Apiguard or Formic Acid?

Yes because NO one has put up the $$$$$ to do a study it aint about the honey iis about the $$$$$$

Doc Rod worked for several years with his own money to study this method and all he has goten for it is flack:(

Hambone
02-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Yes because NO one has put up the $$$$$ to do a study it aint about the honey iis about the $$$$$$

Doc Rod worked for several years with his own money to study this method and all he has goten for it is flack:(


Thanks for the Doc Rod reference. I had not herd of or read his stuff until now. A few fogging questions. Is the below formula still the formula ya'll are using. And is this the correct fogger to use.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay_10551_10001_36655_-1______?rFlag=true&cFlag=1


Thanks Sundance for taking the time to post this formula a while back.


FGMO-THYMOL FORMULA FOR CORDS AND BURGESS FOGGER
(Do not use thymol in your formula with honey supers on)
The purpose of the FGMO-Thymol for these formulae is to obtain a concentration of thymol no higher than 5.49% thymol for the fogger and 2.53% thymol for the emulsion soaked cords.
Emulsion soaked cords
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
100 grams (3.53 oz.) thymol
1000 grams honey (2-1/4 pounds)
1000 grams beeswax (2-1/4 pounds)
100 pieces of cotton cord (40 inches long each)
Add the weight of the ingredients without the cords
Divide into 100 grams thymol

Thus:
100 = 2.53 % thymol
3960 total weight

Fogger
1000 cc mineral oil @ 0.86 density
(*) (860 grams (30.34 oz.))
50 grams (1.76 oz.) thymol
Add the weight of above
Divide into 50 grams thymol

Thus:
50 = 5.49 % thymol
910 total weight

(*) 1000 cc of FGMO of 0.86 density weighs 860 grams
Remove 100 cc FGMO from 1000 cc to dilute thymol. See instructions below.


Instructions for diluting thymol
These instructions replace previous instructions for dilution of thymol with alcohol. Even though alcohol utilized for dilution of the thymol evaporates readily, I wish to dismiss potential offenses to millions of brothers in faith who oppose use of alcohol. The new formulae are not only more cost-effective and not offensive to non-alcohol consumers, but also easier to prepare minimizing the risk of adding a flammable agent to the formula.


Instructions for making dilution for the fogger
Remove 100 cc FGMO from the 1000 cc intended for mixture. Place 100 cc FGMO in a mason jar. Add 50 grams thymol for fogger and 100 grams for emulsion cords, and secure cup tightly. Place a metal container filled with water (e.g. cooking ware) on a heat source. Place glass jar with the 100 cc FGMO and thymol in the water of the heating vessel. Swish/swirl jar as the water heats up until thymol dissolves completely. Solution will become slightly amber in color (normal change). The solution is now ready to add to the rest of the FGMO intended for use in the fogger or the cords.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol emulsion
Place 900 cc FGMO in a metal or ceramic container and place container over a heat source. Allow oil to heat. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds) beeswax and stir well until wax is totally melted. Remove container from heat source. Add 1000 grams (2-1/4 pounds honey) and stir well until it blends into wax-FGMO mixture. Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture previously diluted as per instructions above. Add cords immediately and stir until they are well soaked with the solution. Pack cords in a tightly sealed container and store in a cool place. Your emulsion-soaked cords will be ready to use as soon as the emulsion cools.


Instructions for making FGMO-thymol mixture for fogger
Add 100 cc FGMO-thymol mixture (obtained as per instructions above for diluting thymol) to 900 cc FGMO (remainder of the 1000 cc needed) and shake well. This will result in a 5.49 % FGMO-thymol solution. Fill your fogger container. You are now ready to fog. Set fogger on a level, steady surface. Turn gas valve to the left 1/4 turn. Listen for a slight hissing sound from your fogger. Light your fogger from underneath (I recommend using a butane stove lighter for this purpose). Wait. You should notice a drop or two of oil dripping from the spout of the fogger. Next, you should notice a small emission of oil mist similar to that of a lit cigarette. Next, the fogger will emit a larger puff of oil mist. The fogger is now ready for fogging. Holding the fogger parallel to the ground, point the nozzle directly at your hive entrance. DO NOT AIM THE FOGGER DOWNWARD! Place a tray or shield below the hive if you use screen-bottom boards to direct flow of mist into the hive. Pull the trigger of the fogger 3-4 times, while you count 1001, 1002, 1003, and 1004, depending on the population size of your hives. When fogging, please wear a respirator for safety reasons. Never add any other ingredient to your fogger when following this procedure. Do not use foggers that may have been used for spraying pesticides previously. Residues from the insecticide may have remained imbedded in the container. These residues would then be transferred to your FGMO-thymol solution and result in probable bee kills.

Kieck
02-11-2009, 12:39 PM
USDA did some brief work on FGMO as a Varroa control.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=169445

peletier
02-11-2009, 02:26 PM
Well, here we go! This is really lame research -or at least lame reporting of the research done. No...fogged FGMO does not kill the mites (my observation). The mites might suffocate if saturated with the stuff but that is not the procedure.

Here is MY research report: Pure FGMO (no additives) is fogged through a propane insect fogger (brand new) and directed at hive entrances and under the hive where it can enter through the SCREENED BOTTOM BOARD. The fog is cool 18 to 20 inches from the nozzle so no bees are french fried. I have had a flame thrower effect if I mis-manage the triggering but a little practice helped eliminate this. A 2 or three second burst at the entrance, and the same under the SCREENED BOTTOM BOARD is how I do it.

The bees should be flying and active. For my first few applications I did half the hives and left the other half alone. (12 altogether). Immediately after fogging half the hives I slipped in the sticky boards under the SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS on all the hives. Then I scientifically pulled up a chair and watched the action. There is no question in my mind that as the bees groom themselves and each other...ridding themselves of the light film...mites are dislodged and either roll off the landing board or fall through the SCREENED BOTTOM BOARD and land in the goo on the sticky board.("Pam" or equivalent)

The mites that roll off the landing board fall to the ground. They are not dead. Presumably they can re-enter the hive if the chickens don't get them first. We are not over-run with mites here but the compared sticky boards tell the story of dislodged mites vs normal drop.

Now, I don't get paid to do research by the USDA, but if I did, I would try to do a little something beyond "Put substance A in a hive and see if it kills mites. Put substance B in a hive and see if it kills mites." etc.

A government report of a FGMO test that doesn't mention SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS, grooming activities, cool fog, sticky boards, chickens, and chairs in front of the hives ....now that really is "nonsense".

'Course that's just my opinion based on my own results.

honeyman46408
02-11-2009, 04:36 PM
(eight colonies per treatment group). During the six-week test period, the Varroa populations increased in untreated colonies and those treated with FGMO, while those treated with coumaphos strips decreased greatly. Coumaphos-treate

Wow a hole six-week test!!

A government report of a FGMO test that doesn't mention SCREENED BOTTOM BOARDS, grooming activities, cool fog, sticky boards, chickens, and chairs in front of the hives ....now that really is "nonsense".

Sundance
02-11-2009, 04:49 PM
This has always been a hot topic (no pun intended).

But I am convinced, as others have said, that the
increased grooming lessens mite load with screened
bottom boards.

The addition of thymol does at least a couple things
I am convinced of as well. It reduces molds and mildews
in the colony. It helps with tracheal mites. This is
in addition to varroa knock down.

It can be a good part of an IPM strategy. And mighty
easy and cheap to boot.

Is it natural???? Heck no!

Bud Dingler
02-11-2009, 05:02 PM
its so hard for me to understand why anyone would monkey around with this approach nowadays when we have other safe and non contaminating methods of treating mites.

I could understand it 5 or more years ago when we did not have formic, or apiguard. this is crazy and foolish in my opinion.

what even more sad is folks who claim some sort of conspiracy.

i think I'll stick with my mite resistant bees so I don;t have to mess around with any treatments. if I did treat I'd follow Randy Olivers website of SCIENTIFICALLY proven approaches before some recipe I picked up off the internet.

Sundance
02-11-2009, 05:05 PM
I could understand it 5 or more years ago when we did not have formic, or apiguard. this is crazy and foolish in my opinion.

Formic is hazardous as well, and apigaurd is thymol.
And calling others crazy and foolish....... well....

I rely on genetics mainly myself.

peletier
02-11-2009, 05:39 PM
This thread was started by what appears to be a new beekeeper looking for an explanation of a mite treatment option. Let's make it clear to him. If your experience is that it didn't work for you, say it didn't work for you. We'll have to assume you did it right. You might even concede that it does no harm. Citing bogus research and encouraging chemical use is a disservice to a newcomer.

Applied the way I have described, it works for me. The reason I would choose FGMO over the chemical treatments mentioned? Simple. I would not hesitate to swallow a spoonfull of my treatment (I use mineral oil ONLY). I would not even remotely consider doing the same with the others. That WOULD be crazy!

I also believe genetics is the answer and until I can count on that strategy 100%, I will use the mildest treatment I can find. And because it is a "mechanical" mechanism, I can use it only when necessary.

fat/beeman
02-11-2009, 06:40 PM
hot topic here I belive you treat or not treat as one likes.me as a
commercial beekeeper that I depend on my selling of bees and repeat buyers of nuc's should say something.oh did I say it was cheap and works and no money spent on a big company getting rich on my labour.
my 2 cents
Don

Alex Cantacuzene
02-11-2009, 07:37 PM
We have used the food grade mineral oil (FGMO) method for several years. For the newbees, the fogger needs to be new and not ever have been used with insecticide. Our results show themselves on the increase of stuck or dead varroa on the sticky board under the screened bottom board. Imagination? Maybe.....we are satisfied and we will stick with what Dr. Rodriguez has told us. Take care and have fun

deknow
02-11-2009, 08:28 PM
The addition of thymol does at least a couple things
I am convinced of as well. It reduces molds and mildews
in the colony.
molds are important in the proper functioning of a beehive. "reducing" them impacts more than what is intended.

deknow

Kieck
02-12-2009, 08:43 AM
Before we get too far into bashing research on this thread, too, let's back up a second.

The comment has been posted here that in order for FGMO fogging to be effective, screened bottom boards and/or sticky boards must be in place to remove and/or trap dislodged mites.

OK, fine, but what happens if you put a sticky board in place and blow some smoke into the entrance of a hive? Ever tried it? Ever tried comparing what you find on that sticky board after fogging FGMO to what you find on that sticky board after smoking the entrance of the hive?

I'll confess that I haven't done the comparison, and I've never tried fogging FGMO, but I'm guessing the results of the two would be very similar.

That doesn't mean that smoke "kills" mites or is even an especially effective IPM strategy, just that mites are likely to be dislodged.

Fact is, FGMO does not seem to kill Varroa mites. If you still can use the dislodging to your advantage and you're comfortable atomizing FGMO into your hives, that decision must be up to you.

The thymol in the combination used by some, I suspect, may have the real effect on the mites. FGMO may really be serving as a carrier for the thymol.

Sundance
02-12-2009, 08:48 AM
The thymol in the combination used by some, I suspect, may have the real effect on the mites. FGMO may really be serving as a carrier for the thymol.

I agree with your post...... I suspect the drop from just
smoke would be less than FGMO (maybe substantially
less). But anything that initiates grooming will cause
drop.

And yes, thymol does affect mites. I'd never personally
use plain FGMO. And don't use FGMO/Thymol as often
any more.