Overwintering ability of the various breeds

[IndianaHoney]

I've recently been looking at the condition of all my hives as far as their overwintering success goes. And I've noticed some stark diferences in each breed's ability to survive a northern winter. Another good indicator for me has been the use of the Mountain Camp Method, which I will explain why this is a good indication.

I use VSH, Carnie, a couple Russians, Italians, and Minn Hygenic. My comparison messures weight of the hive, cluster size, and mortality rate. It's no suprise that the Russians seem to have the lowest rate of consumption, and the smallest clusters. They haven't even touched the dry sugar, and are still alive in the bottom box. So far they have overwintered the best.

Suprisingly to me is that while the Carnies are overwintering with a small cluster as well, they have consumed far more dry sugar than all the other hives. They also have the 2nd highest mortality rate due to starvation. Even with the dry sugar overhead, they seem to get pinned down by the cold and starve right under the sugar, and with stores right next to them. Their clusters are about the same size as the Russians, yet the Russians preform better.

Other suprises are as follows: Minn Hygenic seems to have absolutely no ability to overwinter. This is the 2nd year that I have lost every single Minn Hygenic hive.

VSH seems to overwinter fairly well, about average really.

The biggest suprise has been the Italians. They went into fall and winter with the most weight, and produced the most the previous year. They are also still heavy. The clusters are larger than any other hive and are gaining in numbers faster than the other breeds. While this may not be suprising, the fact that I have lost zero of them is suprising given the fairly cold climate here. As well as all of them being alive, they have not consumed a large amount of their stores yet. All together I am most impressed with this breed, and I'm considering having this breed make up the majority of my hives.

[BeeAware]

I've noticed similar results with my bees of varying races. The one thing about the Italians is that they will begin to explode in population when the queen starts laying in late January and they will consume lots of the stores between now and spring when they begin to feed brood. I worry about the Italians in my bee yard most between now and the first nectar flow. Good luck!

[mikesattre]

I have about the same make up of genetics as yours, but- no italians. I have assumed that the MN are from italian stock, but have found them to overwinter here very well.... Keep in mind that the bee keeping in northern climates handbook, written by the U of M extension suggests wintering with 3 deeps! they also are the people who funded the development of the MN hygenic..... I found the NWC that I have to be wintering very well, with only 2 dead outs out of 10 to date, with the rest having nice sized clusters, and plenty of stores. The russian, and VHS Russian crosses that I have consistantly fail to make a decent honey crop in comparison to the other hives, and as of now I will be treating them as nurse hives, taking frames of brood and using them as my spring nuc factory. I have had so little trouble with them that I am at ends about the lack of honey production, but having bees in spring is still a bonus every year.

[tecumseh]

some VERY interesting observation IndianaHoney? thanks very much for that.

first a bit of a warning here. I would first suggest that we have NOTHING here in the USofA that looks anything like a pure strain of honeybees. A second related factor is...since all of these mongrol bees that look like italians or carnis or russian (I really don't consider the latter to be a seperate race of honeybees) have typically been reared in an open mated system of queen rearing and their inhereted characteristics (aspects of the characteristic of the super organism we call a hive) are even more confusing.

another warning (which I will recopy is provided by beeware).. followed by my comments...
"The one thing about the Italians is that they will begin to explode in population when the queen starts laying in late January and they will consume lots of the stores between now and spring when they begin to feed brood. I worry about the Italians in my bee yard most between now and the first nectar flow."
>resources to maintain a cluster during the winter is actually extremely small...brood rearing beginning in the spring is the largest consumer of stores and this is why it is not uncommon for bees to starve with spring just around the corner.

>steve taber suggested (in one of his many article in one of the old bee journals) that imperfections in the comb of the bottom box is actually beneficial in a hive's ability to overwinter. that is: holes in the comb of the bottom box (brood chamber) allowed bee overwintering at very low temperature to move between frame. he noted an extreme (absolute) death loss in some hives with perfect comb (in some previous experiment).. so that in later experiments he cut holes in the corner of the comb and repeated the experiment. if memory serves??? he performed these experiments at extreme altitudes in the Rockey Mountains.

>marz suggested (same journal) that super ovulating queens (ie those that have the potential to produce 2000+ eggs per day) do not survive well when over wintered. he suggested that more 'conservative' laying queens were what you wanted in a set down type operation.

and lastly a request from Indiana.... just casually of the various 'breeds' you listed did you recognize any difference in honey producing capacity?
>my slant....if your purpose of rearing bees is honey???? then quite evidently you can not rear a honey crop from dead bees, but even with 100% survival a colony that produces no honey ain't such a great deal either... well actually this is the worst of deals (imho).

[Camp9]

Up until the mid 80's we had no problem overwintering italians, but that sure changed. I wonder if it's time to try a few again just to see what happens.

Camp

[mikesattre]

I have a pretty good idea of where my genetics come from and try to keep it isolated, I found some real mixed up bees, but I would have to say that the crosses are pretty easy to spot now. I thought that Taber did alot of his work in france for some reason, but I remember the article.... I have found that wintering in shallows has given the best results, which I started doing for alot of reasons, but he first one was the added cluster space between boxes, as suggested by Taber. My findings of the different strains out there are all based on 5 shallows with about 70 # of honey when winter hits.

[BEES4U]

Can you provide me the source of your queens?

Ernie
Queen Breeder

[tecumseh]

mike writes:
I have found that wintering in shallows has given the best results, which I started doing for alot of reasons, but he first one was the added cluster space between boxes, as suggested by Taber.

tecumseh:
I think this conform to Taber notion (see my prior post) in regards to deep frames that were drawn in an absolutely perfect fashion. that is these deep perfect frames did not allow the bees to pass across from one side of a frame to the other in extremely cold weather. therefore the cluster could easily starve while being only inches away from stores.

[adamf]

The biggest suprise has been the Italians. They went into fall and winter with the most weight, and produced the most the previous year. They are also still heavy. The clusters are larger than any other hive and are gaining in numbers faster than the other breeds. While this may not be suprising, the fact that I have lost zero of them is suprising given the fairly cold climate here. As well as all of them being alive, they have not consumed a large amount of their stores yet. All together I am most impressed with this breed, and I'm considering having this breed make up the majority of my hives.

These sound like good fondation for your population. Keep in mind that "Italian" as other have suggested, means really nothing. Your "Italians" might be completely different than your beekeeping neighbour's "Italians".

We got some MH "Italians" that fit your MH description and some other "Italians" that also fit your "good Italian" description. We also have some "Carniolans" that over-Winter like champions.

Keep your eyes and ears open--breed from several of the good performers who made it through the Winter and continue to observe.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com (http://www.vpqueenbees.com)

[Kieck]

I'll stand by the comments that over winter survival is mostly about leaving enough for the bees -- whatever type you have.

I have some bees descended from Minnesota Hygienic stock (open mated, so really are not true Minnesota Hygienic anymore). They over winter quite well. Same with Italians, Carniolans, etcetera.

The larger the cluster, the more stores they need to get them through the winter successfully.

One caveat: I'm not a commercial beekeeper, and would prefer to leave some excess on the honey and have better over wintering success than to take more honey and have poorer over wintering success.