View Full Version : Expanding the gene pool
Have any of you commercial breeders, that do II, ever considered scouring the country side for feral colonies (I would use Google Earth or the like to locate isolated areas), collect drones/semen, bring back to the lab and add to your breeding program? I would love to head to the high country with my backpack, a piece of excluder, a vail, and the tools to collect semen. Someone that can set up bee-lines and knows how to collect semen could have a fun time and probably have enough time to get some fishing in. If it is true that many of the queens currently available don't represent a very good gene pool, you might be able to apply for an SBIR or STTR grant and get paid for your efforts.
Aspera
01-27-2009, 07:47 PM
Fabulous idea. It probably isn't necessary to go overseas to get some genetic diversity. Much of its right here. However, wouldn't it be easier to just bring back drones alive?
adamf
01-27-2009, 08:58 PM
I would love to head to the high country with my backpack, a piece of excluder, a vail, and the tools to collect semen. Someone that can set up bee-lines and knows how to collect semen could have a fun time and probably have enough time to get some fishing in.
There are some folks that have thought of a variation on this--setting up remote mating nucs with cells to take advantage of some feral populations.
Collecting semen in the wild would be somewhat difficult--even for the most adroit.
One could collect drones and bring 'em back in small nucs, to where the collection set-up was.
You'd have to be efficient. Drones don't keep well.
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
Fabulous idea. It probably isn't necessary to go overseas to get some genetic diversity. Much of its right here. However, wouldn't it be easier to just bring back drones alive?
My understanding is that drones don't keep very well. Semen can be kept for over a week at room temp and even longer with some loss of viability over time.
There are some folks that have thought of a variation on this--setting up remote mating nucs with cells to take advantage of some feral populations.
Collecting semen in the wild would be somewhat difficult--even for the most adroit.
One could collect drones and bring 'em back in small nucs, to where the collection set-up was.
You'd have to be efficient. Drones don't keep well.
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
I should have read this before my last post. I guess you could take mating nucs with virgin queens out to the drone source for mating, but I think it would be more efficient to collect the drones from feral colonies, take semen, take notes, and then move on a few mile and do it again. I guess I just can't get the backpack and flyrod out of my mind.:D
Some alpine lakes are great sources of fish, I mean water for the bees, so I would focus on the best fishing holes, I mean bee forage areas. I would be terrible if it took all summer but that is the price someone would have to pay.:)
beekuk
01-28-2009, 02:01 PM
Hi HVH, sounds like a great idea,i will get my fishing gear,oops i mean insemination apparatus packed,and of we can go to the fish congregation area,i mean drone congregation area. but seriously think these are good ideas.
Hi HVH, sounds like a great idea,i will get my fishing gear,oops i mean insemination apparatus packed,and of we can go to the fish congregation area,i mean drone congregation area. but seriously think these are good ideas.
Instead of one person taking on the burden of all the fishing, I mean hard work; a consortium of beeks could form a cooperative and get tons of diversity from all across the county. I would be willing to learn how to operate a bee-line and try my best to ship a couple of samples, but we would need someone to be the central hub for breeding unless a very organized group could be formed that could divide and conquer.
beekuk
01-28-2009, 02:57 PM
I think this could work, but would be better with a dedicated group of fishermen,i mean beekeepers,but some would have to leave the hills with the fresh semen for use, or dispatch., while some would have the chore of staying in the hills collecting more fish,i mean drone semen,but i don't mind hard work,so would stay in the hills catching more fine fish,uum drones. I love it when a plan comes together,if only one would.
I think this could work, but would be better with a dedicated group of fishermen,i mean beekeepers,but some would have to leave the hills with the fresh semen for use, or dispatch., while some would have the chore of staying in the hills collecting more fish,i mean drone semen,but i don't mind hard work,so would stay in the hills catching more fine fish,uum drones. I love it when a plan comes together,if only one would.
If we could get someone with the most to gain to take up the mantel of organizer/leader (no jerks) we could probably pull this off. I know how to tie flies and cast pretty well but I haven't done it in years. :D
beekuk
01-28-2009, 03:29 PM
All you and i need HVH, is the ability to delegate. Let others do the easy work of collecting the drone semen,while we take on the strenuous task of fishing,i mean delegating,keeping records ect. Phew, i need a rest allready,think we could let someone else do the fishing as well.
All you and i need HVH, is the ability to delegate. Let others do the easy work of collecting the drone semen,while we take on the strenuous task of fishing,i mean delegating,keeping records ect. Phew, i need a rest allready,think we could let someone else do the fishing as well.It sounds like fun to me but I am waiting for one of the experts to say it is is bad idea. If I was set up to run with the idea and had the expertise I would be thrilled.
I think there are some risks involved regarding disease (mostly viral) but the benefits might make it worthwhile. Also, we would need to stay away from AHB areas.
beekuk
01-28-2009, 04:01 PM
I agree, shame about those AHB they have also got some good genetic material,but also far too much bad.
Aspera
01-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Also, we would need to stay away from AHB areas.
Easy enough. Just stay clear of warm, arid regions as the fishing is badly infested with AHB.
Easy enough. Just stay clear of warm, arid regions as the fishing is badly infested with AHB.
It is a dream. If I can ever go at it full time I might take a stab at it.
This is a very interesting idea and one I have muddled around for several years now, but I had not thought about the excuse to fishing.
Seriously though, I think there is a great deal of genetic diversity available across the US, but it seems the resources are so disjointed and unavailable.
How many have read about the Ohio Queen Project? It is a statewide stock improvement/educational endeavor designed to utilize "survivor" stock from across Ohio. I have also been thinking about utilizing the genetic diversity on a much larger scale, but have been stuck of how to do this on a shoestring budget.
Here is my idea thus far, bare with me, as it is a work in progress. With the recent design of my new semen homogenizing syringe, I was thinking about asking beekeepers across the US to each collect and send a relatively small sample of drones, say 20-30 total. They could collect the drones from several of their best "survivor" colonies. This would have to be carefully coordinated so that all the drones would arrive within a day or two of each other so that I could collect and pool all of the semen. I would then use the pooled semen from beekeepers across the US to inseminate virgin queens.
Now, how do I repay those that contribute drones, remember, I am working through this on a shoestring budget and thinking outside the box. In order for each contributor to benefit from the genetic diversity, I could send everyone back a queen that is inseminated with homogenized semen. This could become expensive and the risk of losing a single queen in transit or introduction is high. My second thought was what about repaying those that contributed with eggs and larvae from the queens inseminated with homogenized semen. This way the eggs and larvae would be produced from a very large genetic pool and are relatively inexpensive to produce and ship. Shipping eggs and larvae is not a refined practice, but it has been done and I have played around with it a little.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
This is a very interesting idea and one I have muddled around for several years now, but I had not thought about the excuse to fishing.
Seriously though, I think there is a great deal of genetic diversity available across the US, but it seems the resources are so disjointed and unavailable.
How many have read about the Ohio Queen Project? It is a statewide stock improvement/educational endeavor designed to utilize "survivor" stock from across Ohio. I have also been thinking about utilizing the genetic diversity on a much larger scale, but have been stuck of how to do this on a shoestring budget.
Here is my idea thus far, bare with me, as it is a work in progress. With the recent design of my new semen homogenizing syringe, I was thinking about asking beekeepers across the US to each collect and send a relatively small sample of drones, say 20-30 total. They could collect the drones from several of their best "survivor" colonies. This would have to be carefully coordinated so that all the drones would arrive within a day or two of each other so that I could collect and pool all of the semen. I would then use the pooled semen from beekeepers across the US to inseminate virgin queens.
Now, how do I repay those that contribute drones, remember, I am working through this on a shoestring budget and thinking outside the box. In order for each contributor to benefit from the genetic diversity, I could send everyone back a queen that is inseminated with homogenized semen. This could become expensive and the risk of losing a single queen in transit or introduction is high. My second thought was what about repaying those that contributed with eggs and larvae from the queens inseminated with homogenized semen. This way the eggs and larvae would be produced from a very large genetic pool and are relatively inexpensive to produce and ship. Shipping eggs and larvae is not a refined practice, but it has been done and I have played around with it a little.
Any thoughts or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
Great response. As an alternative to drones (unless they ship a lot better than I have been told) - From all of your experience what is the cheapest and least amount of equipment needed to collect semen. Either an SBIR or STTR grant might provide enough of that equipment to pass around to beeks which would be their payment for their effort. Have you designed a portable semen collector? If you did have these designed, your grant money could pay you for the equipment that you supply to beeks plus perhaps an instructional video. I have a Schley but am willing to help in this experiment because I think it would be fun and important.
Breeding survival stock is a bit different than scouring the mountains for new stock. Since I have been using Apistan, I don't have stock to send, but the mountain/country bees I might be able to send.
I need to learn how to use a bee-line but that would be half the fun. Once you had some promising queens, I would buy some from you. Are you interested in stock that has been isolated from apiaries or apiary stock only that has been scrutinized?
p.s. Do you sell capillary pullers or do I have the wrong guy?
I do not sell pipette pullers, but let me know if you find the right guy... Someday I would like to replace the tank of a puller I have.
Shipping drones would be the cheapest method by far. They do not travel the best, but if you put them in a large cage or battery box with plenty of workers it works pretty well. The other advantage is that all of the drones could be collected at the same time.
As for which drones, diversity is the key. I used quotes when I wrote "survivor" stock because the term has many different meanings. Feral bees would be great if they can be verified, but there are also many beekeepers that use little or no treatments to maintain their colonies, those would be great too. The idea is just to consolidate and share some of the most rugged and productive stock with a large number of beekeepers.
I do not sell pipette pullers, but let me know if you find the right guy... Someday I would like to replace the tank of a puller I have.
Shipping drones would be the cheapest method by far. They do not travel the best, but if you put them in a large cage or battery box with plenty of workers it works pretty well. The other advantage is that all of the drones could be collected at the same time.
As for which drones, diversity is the key. I used quotes when I wrote "survivor" stock because the term has many different meanings. Feral bees would be great if they can be verified, but there are also many beekeepers that use little or no treatments to maintain their colonies, those would be great too. The idea is just to consolidate and share some of the most rugged and productive stock with a large number of beekeepers.
You might end up with some good stock but if we have indeed reduced our gene pool through breeding programs in the last few decades will you increase diversity while getting disease resistance or will you just get some disease resistance?
Yes, again this is just a theoretical idea in the works. I think compiling a selection of drones from across the US will certainly provide a diverse genetic representation. Time would tell if the population provided a good level of resistance. I suspect, the initial benefit would be mostly adding genetic diversity, then the selection work begins.
Purely speculation on my part, but I think there are populations of honey bees across the US that are not represented in the studies of commercial beekeeping operations that show a reduction in genetic diversity.
Velbert
01-30-2009, 07:38 PM
This part of a e-mail
Dear Mr. Williams,
Thus far, using the mitochondrial DNA COI-COII marker, we have found some interesting results from feral colonies including a Middle Eastern lineage that has not been imported into the U.S. since the late 1800’s. I am also interested in looking at the genetic variation of managed colonies by hobbyists and commercial beekeepers. I am contacting you to see if you could provide me with some samples from your hives. I can send you vials filled with ethanol for the bees to be placed in. After they are analyzed, I will let you know what the results are and if we publish this data, names will be kept anonymous.
In addition, the lab can also screen bees from colonies for Nosema that have crashed recently or any future problems that may occur as spring approaches as well as for Africanized bees.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
This part of a e-mail
Dear Mr. Williams,
Thus far, using the mitochondrial DNA COI-COII marker, we have found some interesting results from feral colonies including a Middle Eastern lineage that has not been imported into the U.S. since the late 1800’s. I am also interested in looking at the genetic variation of managed colonies by hobbyists and commercial beekeepers. I am contacting you to see if you could provide me with some samples from your hives. I can send you vials filled with ethanol for the bees to be placed in. After they are analyzed, I will let you know what the results are and if we publish this data, names will be kept anonymous.
In addition, the lab can also screen bees from colonies for Nosema that have crashed recently or any future problems that may occur as spring approaches as well as for Africanized bees.
Thank you for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.
IMHO this is the way to go. I would be interested in any references to this work. If this is a PCR based assay I can duplicate it and test wild colonies myself.
Not sure if these is from the same work Velbert is referring to, but it is along the same lines and a very interesting study.
Thrice out of Africa: ancient and recent expansions of the honey bee, Apis mellifera.
Whitfield CW, Behura SK, Berlocher SH, Clark AG, Johnston JS, Sheppard WS, Smith DR, Suarez AV, Weaver D, Tsutsui ND.
Science. 2006 Oct 27;314(5799):642-5. Erratum in: Science. 2007 Oct 19;318(5849):393.
Not sure if these is from the same work Velbert is referring to, but it is along the same lines and a very interesting study.
Thrice out of Africa: ancient and recent expansions of the honey bee, Apis mellifera.
Whitfield CW, Behura SK, Berlocher SH, Clark AG, Johnston JS, Sheppard WS, Smith DR, Suarez AV, Weaver D, Tsutsui ND.
Science. 2006 Oct 27;314(5799):642-5. Erratum in: Science. 2007 Oct 19;318(5849):393.
Thanks Joe
adamf
02-01-2009, 08:22 AM
Yes, again this is just a theoretical idea in the works. I think compiling a selection of drones from across the US will certainly provide a diverse genetic representation. Time would tell if the population provided a good level of resistance. I suspect, the initial benefit would be mostly adding genetic diversity, then the selection work begins.
Purely speculation on my part, but I think there are populations of honey bees across the US that are not represented in the studies of commercial beekeeping operations that show a reduction in genetic diversity.
Hi Joe,
I agree and support this cooperative/collective breeding concept. See previous post: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=387750#post387750 #97. Your Ohio project and others are working on this regionally.
I feel that a regional model allows local breeders to select/breed for their area and beekeeping style. Once progress was made, regional groups would be able to trade/collaborate genetic material with other regional groups. I feel that the regional model has several inherent benefits:
1. Education, 2. Localized selection, 3. Redundancy. Conversely, I'm concerned that with the centralized model, if for some reason there was contamination, error or failure, the negative results would possibly be reflected in all the other collaborators' breeding populations. I am certainly not suggesting that you/Joe would muck up if he were the centralized source! I'm just exploring some concerns I'd have with the "eggs all in one basket" as applied to breeding.
Breeding bees in collectives is fairly common in other parts of the world. That far-sighted folks are running regional breeding programs now is an indicator that the quality of queens we may use in our colonies will be higher and beekeeping more productive in the years to come!
KUDOS to all involved thus far!
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
Hi Adam,
Yes!!!! I could not agree more. I do not like putting all eggs in one basket either. Diversity is very important and it is very challenging to maintain a large population over time. I would like to be able to run a 1000+ inseminated queen colonies, but my wife thinks I nuts... My point is the more the better and this can also be achieved by simply involving more beekeepers with each managing a more reasonable number of colonies and giving them the proper level of attention and evaluation.
The other challenge with developing a regional or national selection program is finding stock. Many beekeepers are excited and want to contribute, but only have "stock" from last years package bees, or unproven swarms. I know there are beekeepers out there with relatively isolated populations with genetic diversity to contribute.
Improvements can be made, but it takes a large collective effort, especially with the magnitude of the challenge we as beekeepers are facing.
adamf
02-01-2009, 08:45 AM
IMHO this is the way to go. I would be interested in any references to this work. If this is a PCR based assay I can duplicate it and test wild colonies myself.
This is fascinating from the perspective of Honey Bee Diaspora in the New
World. However, do unique mitochondrial DNA COI-COII marker results correlate to
heritability in phenotype? Besides having some really interesting curatorial data on bee populations
by performing this testing, could one use unique genotypic information based on mitochondrial DNA taxonomy, to further selection?
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
This is fascinating from the perspective of Honey Bee Diaspora in the New
World. However, do unique mitochondrial DNA COI-COII marker results correlate to
heritability in phenotype? Besides having some really interesting curatorial data on bee populations
by performing this testing, could one use unique genotypic information based on mitochondrial DNA taxonomy, to further selection?
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
I can see where my excitement could be misinterpreted. The mitochondrial DNA would allow for distance analysis. If we could determine that we have, say, 200 lines of bees but there really are only 20 that are distantly related it might allow us to undo some of the harm done by inbreeding. Each of the 20 hypothetical lines would still need close evaluation for good stock but the number of different alleles available would be much larger than if 20 closely related strains/races/subspecies were used. If the goal is diversity why use 1st cousins in the beginning of the program when you could start with unrelated bees?
This is what I meant. Otherwise I agree, the Mt DNA won't determine anything about traits (or very little).
adamf
02-01-2009, 01:08 PM
I can see where my excitement could be misinterpreted. The mitochondrial DNA would allow for distance analysis. If we could determine that we have, say, 200 lines of bees but there really are only 20 that are distantly related it might allow us to undo some of the harm done by inbreeding. Each of the 20 hypothetical lines would still need close evaluation for good stock but the number of different alleles available would be much larger than if 20 closely related strains/races/subspecies were used.
HVH,
Thanks for the clarification. However, segregating "lines" by Mt DNA will not elucidate the degree of homegeniety at genomic DNA loci --which is what you and I would want, being seekers of genetic diversity in bee breeding.
Another way to say this would be:
Two "good" Mt DNA lines; lines having the large distance or "unrelatedness", could still be homozygus at genomic loci that are important to us, and thus "lack diversity".
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
HVH,
Thanks for the clarification. However, segregating "lines" by Mt DNA will not elucidate the degree of homegeniety at genomic DNA loci --which is what you and I would want, being seekers of genetic diversity in bee breeding.
Another way to say this would be:
Two "good" Mt DNA lines; lines having the large distance or "unrelatedness", could still be homozygus at genomic loci that are important to us, and thus "lack diversity".
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
It is a matter of probabilities. The larger the percent difference at mitochondrial loci the greater the chances of allozygosity rather than autozygosity. I don't disagree about the possibility of homozygosity but why breed more closely related bees than necessary?
I defer to the expertise of professionals but can't help adding my two cents.:)
JSL
Maybe you should start another thread with a catchy title to see how many people would send you drones.
HVH,
That sounds like a good idea...
Something along the lines of "Send Me Your Drones and Increase Honey Production"
HVH,
That sounds like a good idea...
Something along the lines of "Send Me Your Drones and Increase Honey Production"
Let me know if I can help in any way. I plan on trying my hand at II this spring/summer because I have some proof-of-concept experiments for transgenesis that require II. I also intend to follow some bee-lines. If I can get decent at both of these skill I might be able to ship semen from isolated colonies from remote areas. Every year I think I will be able to play with the bees but my real job gets in the way. We'll see.
Sorry for the naive post, but does anybody actually culture the africanized bees for production of honey or any other needs? I just read the story here:
http://www.geochembio.com/biology/organisms/honeybee/#AHB
abeeco
02-04-2009, 12:11 PM
yes there are beekeepers in central america 'thomas' (sorry if the spelling is wrong) from this forum is one who keeps ahb in top bar hives, of course also beekeepers in africa...
adamf
02-05-2009, 06:41 AM
It is a matter of probabilities. The larger the percent difference at mitochondrial loci the greater the chances of allozygosity rather than autozygosity. I don't disagree about the possibility of homozygosity but why breed more closely related bees than necessary?
I defer to the expertise of professionals but can't help adding my two cents.:)
HVH,
You say: "Why breed more closely related bees than necessary?" You agree that
mt DNA, showing the propensity for allozygous expression, really does not increase chance for "diversity" in any way since MT DNA expression at any loci does not influence much or interact much with nuclear DNA expression, where most selection and interest occurs in genomic exploration/interest in most organisms?
What if you do came up with similar MT DNA in bee populations? They would be "related" in that they share similar MT DNA. Do you think the European breeding programs' populations where pure race selection is used (their term not mine), and quantifiable results are being realized, would contain similar MT DNA across their breeding populations? Has anyone looked at MT DNA relationship to fitness as defined by economic selection (agricultural breeding versus feral stock)?
It would be fascinating to see how "related" fit (as defined by economic trait expression or by survivability)
honey bee populations were, using MT DNA as the metric.
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
HVH,
You say: "Why breed more closely related bees than necessary?" You agree that
mt DNA, showing the propensity for allozygous expression, really does not increase chance for "diversity" in any way since MT DNA expression at any loci does not influence much or interact much with nuclear DNA expression, where most selection and interest occurs in genomic exploration/interest in most organisms?
What if you do came up with similar MT DNA in bee populations? They would be "related" in that they share similar MT DNA. Do you think the European breeding programs' populations where pure race selection is used (their term not mine), and quantifiable results are being realized, would contain similar MT DNA across their breeding populations? Has anyone looked at MT DNA relationship to fitness as defined by economic selection (agricultural breeding versus feral stock)?
It would be fascinating to see how "related" fit (as defined by economic trait expression or by survivability)
honey bee populations were, using MT DNA as the metric.
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
Adam,
Let's say beekeepers sent you 100 different queens from across the country and you ran mt DNA or SNP analysis on the brood and plotted relateness. So then you decided to set up 100 colonies and observe them. After one season you found only 5 colonies with low mite numbers, a clean hive and good numbers after running the liquid nitrogen test. So out of curiosity you check on your spreadsheet and find that 4 of the 5 queens are highly related. So you decide to cross all combinations for the fun of it. The next season you find, that similar to last season, that these colonies were more likely to clear out mites than other colonies. In addition you discover that every time the unrelated colony was crossed with either of the other 4 that these bees were even more mite free than their parents. The outcome suggests that you now have two genes for mite resistance (There are other possibilities).
I am a hobby beekeeper and not a breeder so these are just some thoughts that interest me.
deknow
02-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Sorry for the naive post, but does anybody actually culture the africanized bees for production of honey or any other needs? I just read the story here:
it is well known (and documented) that the usda imported ahb semen and distributed to many queen breeders in this country. if you don't like some of the references to this out there, you could look it up in "the illustrated encyclopedia of beekeeping" by roger morse and ted hooper.
it's also worth noting that very few "tests" for ahb are done unless there is a problem (temperment issues)....random testing the population of bees in the u.s. would be interesting, to say the least.
deknow
adamf
02-06-2009, 07:03 AM
Adam,
Let's say beekeepers sent you 100 different queens from across the country and you ran mt DNA or SNP analysis on the brood and plotted relateness. So then you decided to set up 100 colonies and observe them. After one season you found only 5 colonies with low mite numbers, a clean hive and good numbers after running the liquid nitrogen test. So out of curiosity you check on your spreadsheet and find that 4 of the 5 queens are highly related. So you decide to cross all combinations for the fun of it. The next season you find, that similar to last season, that these colonies were more likely to clear out mites than other colonies. In addition you discover that every time the unrelated colony was crossed with either of the other 4 that these bees were even more mite free than their parents. The outcome suggests that you now have two genes for mite resistance (There are other possibilities).
I am a hobby beekeeper and not a breeder so these are just some thoughts that interest me.
HVH and anyone else out there,
Using the principle of Occam's Razor, I'd suggest that given the
resources (time and materials) to test 100 colonies for low mite
counts and hygienic behavior accurately, and coming up with five
good breeding candidates, I'd use these to breed from based on the
results. People do this now with success! I wouldn't have extra time to
sample the 100 colonies and perform the molecular analysis on them
you describe. Certainly if someone else could do this--that
would be swell. However, if a breeder can select for 5 out of 100
based on existing robust assays, they are performing well above
most bee breeders.
"For the fun of it" and breeding don't go together. Performing the
tests on 100 colonies and managing them to attain an accurate
assessment of their potential to use in breeding is a feat. How
many of us can manage a 100 colonies, and perform specific tests
on the them? How many of us can manage 100 colonies? Breeding bees
requires hard work. Sure you can have fun, until you fall asleep.
:)
If you were to use molecular technique analyzing mtDNA and mtSNPs in the
population as you outlined, and found a correlation between certain groups
of mtDNA and desirable phenotypes, bravo! You've helped out breeders with a
new selection assay. However, you'll still need to understand and utilize
breeding techniques common to animal husbandry complicated by the Honey
Bee's odd life-history. More early nights!
Some other things: you're basing your hypothesis on the assumption that
the desirable phenotypes (the 5 out of the 100 tested) would have similar
genotypes although unique to the 95 others. There's a very great chance
that they wouldn't be similar. If this probability occurred, where would
you be? You'd need to test larger populations. That means more colonies,
more tests, more time. Are you having fun yet? :) Also utilizing the
latest PCR methodology to inventory mtSNPS, which mtSNP would you use? How
would you determine that? The Honey Bee genome has been sequenced, but how
is the research program going for genomic SNPs and mtSNPS in Honey Bees?
The technology and knowledge is growing, but we still don't know much about
how genetic information and developmental patterns relate in life. In fact
we know much less than we thought. :) Your ideas are great; translating
them into application begs a boat-load of questions leading to more
questions.
We don't know much about the Honey Bee reproductive system, the Honey Bee
digestive system, or the Honey Bee sensory system. Molecular techniques
and knowledge allow us to temper our questions with some degree of
certainty, but they're still tools that are founded on a very
incomplete knowledge base.
Breeding is a science and art. Breeding also depends on luck.
Assays for these have yet to be discovered. :)
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
HVH and anyone else out there,
Using the principle of Occam's Razor, I'd suggest that given the
resources (time and materials) to test 100 colonies
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
There is no question that you are right, from a practical standpoint, and very few people would want to go to the trouble, or think it fun, to do the molecular work. It could however be done if someone was so motivated. If it were me I would start with the genomic sequence and look for short tandem repeats and use half a dozen in standard STR analysis. Intronic regions could also be compared by SNP. mtDNA would make a third alternative. I might consider doing this work in the future but not while I have my current day job.
adamf
02-06-2009, 12:16 PM
I might consider doing this work in the future but not while I have my current day job.
HVH:
Your ship needs to come in!
Lost at sea,
:)
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
HVH:
Your ship needs to come in!
Lost at sea,
:)
Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com
I have worked on other bee projects for fun. I have cultured honeybee cells from eggs for over 4 months. I cloned the honeybee telomerase gene.
My next project is unlikely to work, but I am going to attempt transgenesis of GFP into eggs. These little side projects are good distractions for me and I might be having some fun.:)
fat/beeman
02-06-2009, 06:59 PM
as a commercial beekeeper I try to take a different aproach to queens. first I use ferel bees{bees} that no treatment in the wild state use that larva to graft to then use selected russian stock with NWC's and very little itilian stock to open mate finding a gentle bees good for over wintering in northern cliamtes. I don't want to use a pure race.trying breed back in the natural ability to servive. just my thought's
Don
mountainvalleybee
02-15-2009, 12:30 AM
Just where do some people think some of the rest of us have been getting mellifera mellifera blood for all these years,just how black do you want them to be?
HVH, what is GFP?
Sorry for the delay. I thought the thread died.
GFP=Green Fluorescent Protein. The GFP is for 'proof of concept' and if successful would indicate other genes could be transferred.
HVH,
It has been a number of years ago, but I was working in a lab where a postdoc was mixing the GFP in with honey bee semen and then inseminating queens. I believe she showed the GFP was then expressed in the worker progeny. This may be different from what you have in mind for your next experiment.
HVH,
It has been a number of years ago, but I was working in a lab where a postdoc was mixing the GFP in with honey bee semen and then inseminating queens. I believe she showed the GFP was then expressed in the worker progeny. This may be different from what you have in mind for your next experiment.
You are right. The problem was that the plasmids were maintained as episomes and did not integrate. Without integration the plasmids are lost and the result is transient expression rather than transgenesis.
http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/genetica/42_esperma_transformacion_genetica.pdf
Now there is an interesting discussion to be had. Round up and fuvalinate ready designer bees coming soon. Bee careful what genie you let out of the bottle....
Now there is an interesting discussion to be had. Round up and fuvalinate ready designer bees coming soon. Bee careful what genie you let out of the bottle....
I started a thread some time ago about transgenic bees and people had some very strong feelings on the topic. It's just a matter of time.