feeding

[phil c]

Its been a tough winter and I'm thinking about some early spring feeding. Besides syrup what would you feed for pollen substitute and why? Anything you would stay away from?
Are there any true differences between feed bee, mega bee, or any of the other products? Or any of the liquid supplements?

Thanks, Phil

[Allen Dick]

There are differences, but it mostly comes down to availability, price, and freshness. Commercial patties are most easily handled and will be consumed best, but only if placed right near the brood -- within inches. Liquid protein feeds are costly, messy, and can be hard to get close enough to the cluster. They also are not as concentrated AFAIK, but I have little hands-on experience with them, partly because I was aware of the above drawbacks.

MegaBee, BeePro and Global all work well. FeedBee did not work in the Alberta trials a while back, but one has to remember that the commercial proprietary products can and do change their formulas and what they did last year may not be what they do this year. Global is the only one that publishes its ingredient list and proportions for all to see -- yeast, soy, pollen(optional), sugar and water.

You can make your own, but if you value your time, and can get access to patties through your club or from a local commercial beekeeper, it is hardly worth the work and mess, and the chance of error is great. It is easy to get old or even toxic ingredients and then make patties that are like hocky pucks or drip down and kill bees.

If you are going to make your own, it is best to get the supplies from a bee supply house or commercial beekeeper, since they are liable to be the correct type of yeast and soy, and not the toxic (to bees) types that your local feedmill may be selling for other purposes.

Also, resist the idea of adding anything to the formula. There are lots of theories out there about what bees 'need'. Best to stick to the tried and true.

More info at http://honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm

[Allen Dick]

This came in on another thread, so I'm jumping over here, seeing as the question is partially answered already. I'm happy to answer any questions. I really don't know all that much though. Seems nobody does, since we still don't have a proven complete pollen substitute.
---


You mention nutrition. That is one of my pet subjects. I have been advocating supplementing natural protein sources for a long time now and found huge improvements in my own operation using simple formulas. Less wintering loss, less disease, no more puny deformed little bees in spring, and generally a whole lot less work.

Could you elaborate on this. We had many beekeepers in this area that had huge losses a couple years ago. I believe this loss was largely due to nutrition because of a late April freeze in an early bloom year. The pollen source was just not there and I believe nutrition was a major cause of the late year losses.

I am speaking of mostly hobby keepers a couple of sidelines I know. One sideliner lost from 320 hives to about 100. He contacted the local University here they took samples and sent them to Beltsville. Basically to check for Nosema. Samples were below the threshold (may not be the correct term) for Nosema.

I know very little about feeding and have read post after post on the subject. Could we have your advice.

And if possible the sharing of a simple feed recipe if you share it.

Not trying to hi-jack this thread, if you would rather just send me a PM on the subject if you have time or a new post.

Thanks for your input!!!
__________________
sc-bee

[Ross]

It depends on your location. Here pollen has been coming in for a couple of weeks.

[Allen Dick]

It depends on your location. Here pollen has been coming in for a couple of weeks.

You lucky dog! Here the snow is a foot deep and the weather well below freezing.

Good point, though. Lots of people say they don't need to augment the protein because they have pollen coming in or that the bees will not eat patties if there is natural pollen available.

I can only speak from my own experience, although I have spoken to and worked with many others.

First, in my area, the pollen coming in may or may not be nutritious enough to get the best out of my bees, and it does not come in at night, and during rainy, cold spells, windy days, or into weak colonies, but the bees need it all the time if they are to work flat-out. Adding patties is insurance, and sometimes it hardly seems to pay, but other times it makes a huge difference. Unfortunately, we only know afterwards whether we needed it or not.

Secondly, I have never had problems with bees not eating the patties I describe on my site. Even in July, our main flow time, they eat them right up.

And finally, as I said, after I started feeding at least three to five pounds a hive in spring, my annual losses diminished to the minimum one can expect, given that queens are mortal and that we don't work brood chambers in summer or fall -- only spring. I also could never find any amount of nosema in our hives, although I did look and am trained and equipped. I had to borrow samples from friends on occasion.

Bottom line? If you always have good bees and seldom many losses, and are happy with the way things are, you probably don't need to feed, but if you are having problems, it is something to try.

[IndianaHoney]

I make my own pollen sub. Walter T. Kelley sells soy flour (the correct kind) by the 50lb bag. I also had to purchase a 50lb bag of brewer's yeast. This is only going to be monatarily efficiant if you have more than a couple hives, more like 25 or more.

I then mix 1:1 syrup and pour it in a five gallon bucket.

I then make a dry mixture of soy flour and brewer's yeast 10:1 ratio.

I mix it into the syrup until the mixture is almost thick enough.

I then mix in dry pollen at about 4-5% of the mixture.

At this point, if the mixture is still a little thin, I simply add more soy/brewer's yeast mixture until the becomes thick enough to form patties.

I do not form patties with my pollen sub, I simply scoop a large amount out of the five gallon bucket onto the hive.

I've found that if real pollen is comming in, they won't touch it. But if there is no pollen, then take it down very fast.

[Allen Dick]

That sounds pretty good.

You mention that the bees stop taking it, though, and I wonder that is because the sugar level is a bit low. There seems to be a magic concentration above which the bees eat the patties regardless. We tried various things and decided that we needed to use thicker syrup, plus a little granular sugar, too. (It is all explained on my site).

I also wonder if you use a 10:1 ratio, how you match up the amount of soy to the amount of yeast when buying when you are feeding 25 hives and buying 50 lb bags. Seems you would wind up with some of one or the other left over and have to carry it over a year?

Does Kelley sell the yeast, too?

[Ross]

good discussion....

[sc-bee]

Thanks for moving the post over. I missed seeing this one. As you answered probably not worth time to buy and mix for a few hives.

We have pollen coming in --- has been camellia, not sure of nutritional value. And Red Maple has started blooming. Will be time for the usual freeze to kill it soon:(.

I have a friend who has tried feed bee with no success. I will tell him about adding the granulated sugar. Also patties cause shb problems here and I have had no luck getting them to pick it up dry from a feed station!

[Allen Dick]

....not sure of nutritional value. And Red Maple has started blooming.

Tree pollens have a reputation for being pretty good.


....I have a friend who has tried feed bee with no success. I will tell him about adding the granulated sugar. !

As I recall, even if they eat FeedBee, it is not particularly good. I could ask Medhat, and, for that matter maybe the formula has changed since that test.


....Also patties cause shb problems here and I have had no luck getting them to pick it up dry from a feed station!

Yeah. I've heard that, but where are people putting the patties? To work well, patteies need to be right above the brood -- within 2", actually if the colonies are not strong. Powerful colonies will, apparently, and in hot weather get patties off the floor, at the entrance, but I would not know.

[Ansley]

I just finished reading a book written by a lay beekeeper (printed about 1980) and she recommended ground oatmeal as a pollen substitute in early spring. She put it in a dish near the hive and said the bees quickly ate it up. Unfortunately I just returned the book to the library and can't remember the name, but has anyone heard of doing something like this or is it a debunked old-school method?

[Allen Dick]

Oats is quite low in protein and fairly high, I believe, in harmful components like starch http://www.lionsgrip.com/protein.html

There has been more romantic, convincing bunk written about bees than almost any other topic -- if we leave out politcs and religion, so be warned that reading something in a bee book does not necessarily mean it is a good idea.

My opinion: If the book is fairly recent and written by a respected scientist or successful beekeeper of repute, the information stands a higher likelihood of being accurate and useful than if it is in a magazine or book written by an amateur. There are always exceptions. Caveat emptor and YMMV.

I am not sure that oats would be harmful, but I doubt it would be of much benefit. Bees do gather oat chop from feed bins and bunkers in spring when no pollen is available and their needs are high, but they also will gather sawdust, and coal dust. I'm guessing that they are not very nutritious.

When feeding bees, the best advise is to feed products that are widely considered to be suitable and which have been proven in independant field tests to be beneficial, and buy them from a shop specialising in bee supplies or from a beekeeper who has obtained them there.

[Joel]

We've made our own from expellor processed flower and brewers yeast with sugar water. As mentioned by others we had no success with Bee Feed which I bought because Dadant is close, had some pretty solid hype about the product and we wanted to give it a try. We would like to jump start what's left up north and now that I've been to Allens site (thanks Allen for all the time and work) we are going to try some better methods. In discussions we've had here and among groups of commercial beeks the topic of CCD seems to turn toward bad nutrition consistently. Although I don't think it is the cause it certainly may be an one underlying factor since I think it is easy to underestimate the value of and sometimes recognize good nutrition.

We had a large crop of Aster this fall, being of low quality and higher ash content. We certainly can see the effects with more dysentery from longer confinements in some of our colder yards. I'd like to see more discusions on this topic for sure!

[USCBeeMan]

I have seen pollen being put in the hives by my bees since Dec. Don't know the quality of the pollen or if it is really pollen. Some of it was very, very pale in color.

Pollen is now coming in heavy from trees right now and a few winter honeysuckle bushes. I put the MegaBee patties on my hives about 2 weeks ago. Last time I checked they were eating the stuff pretty good. In fact, there is a piece of the wax paper hanging out of one of the reducers that has holes (keeps mice out). So I know they are eating the stuff and getting rid of the paper. It's my understanding that they will eat the paper too.

I picked MegaBee after doing a lot of research. MegaBee was developed by the USDA, not some company. A lot of research went into this product.

My first hive was last year and it was a swarm from next door. My neighbor game me a suit, gloves, complete hive woodware, and smoker. He also put a pattie on the top of the box. The bees were eating it up pretty good. My mentor came over to assist me with trying to get a failing hive from my neighbor back to life. It didn't work so we put the high body on my first hive. He saw the patty, said I didn't need it, and threw it on the ground.

Now all I can say is that hive has been terrific. I purchased 3 packages after that and the 3 of them together might be as strong as the swarm hive which got the patty. I didn't feed SW to the swarm hive but fed the 3 other hives till November. (May to November) I really believe that patty has something to do with that swarm being so stong.

That's why I purchased a 40 pound box (40 patties) of MegaBee from Dadant. It's cheaper to buy 40 than 20. I figured that some of my fellow beekeepers would want some of the patties and I can sell them for $2 each which is what I have in them including shipping.

I can't give advice since I am only starting my second year. But I can give observations and my thoughts. What has anyone got to loose buy trying something different if you have more than one hive? Purchase a box of patties with some other beeks and try a patty or two on just one hive and compare the hives. The patty can be removed if you think it's hurting the hive.

Yes, I know that no 2 hives are exactly the same! But I feel sure that if a person has 2 or more hives, he/she must have 2 that are near each other and similar in strength.

Trying something different is why I am purchasing 4 packages and 1 nuc this year. Putting the Nuc in medium 8-frame hive. Putting 2 of the 4 packages on SHC with a queen excluder. Maybe I will loose 2 of my hives, I hope not. Maybe these 2 hives take off because they don't have to make comb for the queen to start laying.

I will put MegaBee patties on all 5 colonies. I can compare these 5 with patties against last years 3 that didn't get patties, just SW.

Also, I am using HBH in my SW this year. I might take one of the 4 packages and feed them on SW without the HBH to see if there is a difference.

One this is for sure, what ever happens, I will post here for your information.

[Ansley]

Thanks to all for the replies and info. I'll go with MegaBee and hope the girls stay happy and healthy!

[edenhillapiaries]

Great topic! I was wondering how early in the spring do folks put on the pollen patties. This is my first year over wintering and so far so good. I put pollen patties on last fall and they took them right up. I have enough for another round, but I want to put them on when I will get the most bang for the buck.

I am in Northern Michigan and we have a long way to go before spring arrives. I have heard that the bees will already be raising brood by now so I want to make sure they have the resources they need.

Thanks,
Jason