French bees (apis mellifera mellifera)

[josethayil]

Anyone used French bees? I read that they have a an advanced brood rearing system. One peak in the spring and almost a shut down in summer when there is no flow and another peak just before autum, taking full advantage of the honey flow.I read that its genetic so it can be bred into other bees..... Would like to hear from someone who has actually used these bees.

[Michael Palmer]

Not sure if there is a link anywhere, but Jamie Strange, PH'd...was a post doc at Cornell, and now at Utah or Idaho...studied the French bees in France. The local beekeepers of these Apis m. m. felt that the importation of Buckfast bees into their area was polluting their stock. He wanted to know if the A. mm. were actually local bees and were in some way different than the Buckfast.

He looked at brood rearing of both straing, measuring square inches of brood, and the relationship of peaks in brood rearing and local flows.

He found that the local A. mm bees actually had brood rearing spikes IN ANTICIPATION of the local Lavender flow, and a later flow during the season. The Buckfast bees had a brood rearing spike AS A RESULT of the flows.

We talk about "local" bees, but do they actually exist? This study and Jamie's powerpoint proved the case to me. Can we develop a local strain of bee that would act as these French bees do? Anticipating flows, etc? I wonder. Yes we can grow acclimatized bees, that perform well in our own areas, but truly local bees? How long did it take to develop the local strain in SW France. Bees that have the ability to anticipate flows. Probably too long for us to have much effect.

[magnet-man]

Apis mellifera mellifera ne fonctionnera jamais pour les capitalistes américains apiculteurs. Ils sont aussi en français. Comment osez-vous insulter la France avec de telles pensées!

[wayacoyote]

Isn't Apis m.m. the same as the German Black Bee, the same bee that was imported into the Americas before the Italian?

Michael P. is on to something:
First, I think we're benefited in that we don't have a native A.m. here, so we have a lot of flexibility. By that, I mean that I'm distressed over what "we" doing to the honeybee races in the Old World by mixing them. As I understand it, the races are going "extinct" and are becoming mongrols. I was reading recently about on country that has strong controls over who can conduct queen rearing on their off-shore islands. From this, their native race has been preserved. However, now they're allowing imported races to be bred on these islands, too. (This is the same issue we're facing with the red wolf here. The only places we can Have red wolves roaming free are on islands where there are no wild dogs or coyotes. And the bison, we once had woods bison here in the eastern states, but they were combined with plains bison in order to preserve the species, at the loss of a race.)

Second:
I think that there's more to breeding than selecting the most productive hive. A lot of the breeders who comment on this site (ie Michael P) mention their selection process. Breeding for traits is obviously complex. Add to that the issue that WE can't even predict the nectar flow, what with late season freezes, warm winters, droughts, etc. I don't know HOW to begin identifying bees that build in anticipation of a flow since I can't anticipate it (I wouldn't know what I was seeing without years of hindsight).

Lastly, I am intrigued by the various races and "cultivated strains" of bees and their behavior. So I'd like to know more about these French bees, too.

[samak]

I also thought that apis mellifera mellifera was the german black bee. I guess it has a few different common names.

[aszalan]

yes it is most commonly called the german black bee.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dark_bee

feral populations of A. m. mellifera still exist in the US (OK, MO, AR, MS) based on genetic data.

[josethayil]

A.M.M has a lot of different ecotypes. The ecotypes of A.M.M show a lot of different characteristics than the ecotypes of any other bee races. The British and german ecotypes of AMM are slow to build up in spring and maintains a moderate population in summer and shutdown brood development early in autumn. But the french ecotype of AMM builds up fast in spring and maintains a large population in spring and early summer and in mid summer they reduse the population and just before autumn they have another peak in brood rearing and goes into winter with a moderate size cluster which is not like any other AMM ecotypes.(scientifically proven to be part of genetics of these bees). This ability of the French bees have been developed over a long period of time due to enviornmental factors and honey flow of that area. All the other AMM ecotypes goes into winter with a small cluster and has only one peak in brood rearing which happens in mid spring to early summer.

[Bizzybee]

I think it would be easy enough to say that if those bees were here, they would perform just as the rest of my bees do or would be shortly after arriving. My bees build strong in spring, stop production in summer and build again in fall just as you describe( provided our stinking weather patterns would return to something resembling normal and we had a fall flow). But those same bees relocated to the northern states will perform much differently with the later bloom extended into summer and into fall. Just as I would expect them to do in Germany vs France given their relative positions there. I have no idea how the weather patterns work in that part of the world, but imagine it works similar to what we have here.

Bees build when they have the resources to do so and stop when they don't. No genetic tendencies are likely to cause any race of bees to build their numbers if there aren't resources to support it. All bees are going to adapt to the environment they are placed in with regard to when they build and when they stop.

[Michael Palmer]

Bees build when they have the resources to do so and stop when they don't. No genetic tendencies are likely to cause any race of bees to build their numbers if there aren't resources to support it.

Actually, the point is, and what Jamie showed is...These Amm bees in SW France do build in anticipation of coming resources, not as a result of. That's 180 degrees different that our bees, or the Buckfast bees in France, or what we would think normally influences colony buildup, and is certainly a genetic tendency. That's why they are considered so different, and why the French beekeepers would like to protect the genes in their area.

If I remember correctly...I saw his presentation twice...When the French bees raise new queens, the Buckfasts don't have drones ready to mate.

[josethayil]

Do you know any websites or anyone i can contact through email to get more information about french bees?

[TwT]

now the only thing I dont understand is bee's building up without a working resource anticipating a flow, now thats like taking a gamble and I dont see any bee's or anything in nature doing this, everything has a trigger, the other thing that would make it easier for me to believe is if this study was done by more than just 1 person, show me another that says this and I might lean that way but if those bee's was about out of stores after winter seems they would die because they didn't have enough to get to raising well with that anticipating flow, seems like they would be extinct doing this unless there was another source they build up on before that flow that she didn't see, remember just one person unless you could show me a few that has studied this.

[wayacoyote]

now the only thing I dont understand is bee's building up without a working resource anticipating a flow, now thats like taking a gamble and I dont see any bee's or anything in nature doing this, everything has a trigger,

Don't my bees start rearing brood in the depths of winter when there is no resources to forage from and they're limited to their current stores? Why risk the precious stores on young? Are they just replacing the population that's dying off? Conventional wisdom says, "no, they are preparing for the coming of spring and its harvest."

Triggers: we've lost our keeness toward nature. We've shut ourselves into our little boxes, turned our eyes to artificial illumination, and electronically drowned out the sounds of the seasons. How are we to recongize the triggers? Bats deep in caves know when to roust even for the breifest of warm spells mid-winter which promise a meal of flying insects, and we don't know how. There's no garantee to the bat that the meal will be sufficient to replace the reserves spent on the flight; its a risk, and we've yet to identify the trigger.

Risks: My rooster ran out into the open, distracting a hawk that was after his flock. Did he know he was taking a risk, or was he responding to an internal impulse beyond his control. I don't know. But it was risky, and it fortunately worked long enough for me to get outside.

[TwT]

ok, I can see your point, I must have been one sided when I wrote that post, but would still like to see more than 1 persons studies on this, it just seems to me that those bee's would have to have something else because if they naturally spread out through swarming and got out of the range of that forage then brood rearing at that time would be useless, hope I am saying this wright to keep confusion down,

my bee's want build up during winter getting ready for spring unless I feed and put patties on them, they usually wait until there is nice temps and first forage to start to build up like when dandy lions start and then bradford pairs, the just dont build up until they are working something and temp gets right. I see it like this, the temp and first forage is the trigger that gets mine rolling. see my point, I just don't think anticipation has nothing to do with it.


Don't my bees start rearing brood in the depths of winter when there is no resources to forage from and they're limited to their current stores? Why risk the precious stores on young? Are they just replacing the population that's dying off? Conventional wisdom says, "no, they are preparing for the coming of spring and its harvest."


sounds like good pollinators that build up in mid winter without putting feed or pollen on them.

But all in all it could be true but I just dont see it, but there are many things I don't see so I am just expressing what I think, take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Michael Palmer]

>>but would still like to see more than 1 persons studies on this<<

I'm looking for the original study, published by Jamie. No luck yet. I think if you read the study, you would agree that the science was convincing.

>>it just seems to me that those bee's would have to have something else because if they naturally spread out through swarming and got out of the range of that forage then brood rearing at that time would be useless<<

Understand, that we're not talking about your backyard, your township, or your county. We're talking about a region. A whole area in SW France. And yes, you're correct...if these bees are taken out of the "region" then their ability to anticipate (might be a bad word for what is happening) the Lavender flow would be worthless.

>>my bee's want build up during winter getting ready for spring unless I feed and put patties on them...they just dont build up until they are working something and temp gets right.<<

Maybe that's because they haven't any stored pollen in the broodnest. My bees start buildup in late winter, before anything is coming in...unless they use up all their Fall stored pollen. At that point, brood rearing shuts down until pollen flow or pollen patty is added.

>>see my point, I just don't think anticipation has nothing to do with it.<<

It really has everything to do with it. Measurement of brood area (square inches) in these colonies clearly showed a significant spike in brood rearing before the Lavender flow. This spike was consistent across the board. Now, tell me...have you ever seen this, or have you ever read of this before? Probably not. I hadn't. Everything we've learned, and seen, would lead us to believe that brood rearing spikes are caused by a flow. That's the way I always saw things. But, this is different.

If I can find the study, or find Jamie's contact info, I'll post what I find.

[Cedar Hill]

Apis mellifera mellifera ne fonctionnera jamais pour les capitalistes américains apiculteurs. Ils sont aussi en français. Comment osez-vous insulter la France avec de telles pensées!
Il faut tout simplement leur offrir du miel americain!

[TwT]

I understand what you are saying Michael and I would like to read the study, I still believe there are triggers instead of building for just one flow, I could be wrong but it wouldn't be the first time, now getting back to triggers.




Triggers: Bats deep in caves know when to roust even for the breifest of warm spells mid-winter which promise a meal of flying insects, and we don't know how. There's no garantee to the bat that the meal will be sufficient to replace the reserves spent on the flight; its a risk, and we've yet to identify the trigger.



bats don't hibernate like bears I dont think, they can fly close to the mouth of the cave then if temp is not right they return to roost, you talked about chickens in your post and not being triggers, I raised game roosters for 24 years, the hens don't lay eggs in the winter reason being the day light hours are short not because of the temp, I use to put a timer on the light's in my brood house so they would get 10 hours of light a day to trick the hens into laying so I could get early hatching, that's a trigger, now what I am saying about the bee's is my main flow is tulip poplar and we has small flow's and resources before that, my hives are exploding when the main flow hits because they started building during the early small flows, thats all I am saying. but I would stll love to read the study. its just the idea a hive building up in mid winter for a flow that is the first of the year, pollinators would pay large for these bee's because they wouldn't work so much getting them ready. now again I am not saying it not true but just hard for me to believe how it could work that way.

[JPK]

There is a very simple way to eliminate the question of triggers and try to prove that the French AMM are different somehow from other varieties of AMM.

Simply place several hives of AMM nearby native French AMM so that they are working similar sources of Pollen/Nectar and see what sort of results you get.

If non native AMM behaves similarly to French AMM then we can reasonably assume that there are triggers we are missing/failing to ID.

If on the other hand Non Native AMM and French AMM behave DIFFERENTLY then we know that there truly is something different about the French AMM.

[Fusion_power]

lot of lack of knowledge showing up in this thread.

1. The AMM native to southern France is adapted to Southern France, not to the U.S.
2. They swarm like crazy every spring.
3. They are extremely aggressive foragers, much better than Italians. This is NOT unique to the french bees, it is a common trait in A.M. Mellifera.
4. The one trait they express that is highly desirable is ability to fly in extremely unfavorable weather.
5. They prefer to make honey from darker sources including honeydew. This is NOT desirable for U.S. beekeepers.
6. They make nice cappings but not as good as some other strains.
7. From a genetic viewpoint, they have a lot to offer, but I would not want to keep them here.

Last but not least, it has been shown that it takes about 100 years for a random group of mixed 'mongrel' honeybees to adapt to a region. This is a relatively long interval, but nature is patient. This is a very complex subject that could be discussed to advantage in another thread.

DarJones

[josethayil]

why dont we cross these french bees with the local stock available and increase the genetics in the local population?

if they can anticipate the flow and raise brood accordingly and they are very aggressive foragers, they will surely have a lot to offer when combined with the locally adapted stock. A hybrid with the french bees will surely add a lot of new and advanced genetics to the local bees....

[deknow]

is it clear this is a genetic trait? is it possible that this behavior is "cultural"?

an interesting experement (not just with these bees, but with other populations as well) might be to make up new colonies with all capped brood (no emerged adult bees...including a capped queen cell), even if you had to incubate for a few days to get some bees emerging.

would such bees that have never "talked to the hive elders" show the same behavior? if this is inconclusive, it would be interesting to try and "trigger" this build up artificially (daylight, temprature, smells of maturing lavender, etc).

deknow

[Michael Palmer]

would such bees that have never "talked to the hive elders" show the same behavior?

Dean!! Really??

[Cedar Hill]

lot of lack of knowledge showing up in this thread.

1. The AMM native to southern France is adapted to Southern France, not to the U.S.
2. They swarm like crazy every spring.
3. They are extremely aggressive foragers, much better than Italians. This is NOT unique to the french bees, it is a common trait in A.M. Mellifera.
4. The one trait they express that is highly desirable is ability to fly in extremely unfavorable weather.
5. They prefer to make honey from darker sources including honeydew. This is NOT desirable for U.S. beekeepers.
6. They make nice cappings but not as good as some other strains.
7. From a genetic viewpoint, they have a lot to offer, but I would not want to keep them here.

Last but not least, it has been shown that it takes about 100 years for a random group of mixed 'mongrel' honeybees to adapt to a region. This is a relatively long interval, but nature is patient. This is a very complex subject that could be discussed to advantage in another thread.

DarJones

Research please that indicates such? Bees adapt much sooner to their environment.:)

[Kieck]

I believe by "adapt to their environment," the statement really means, "evolve into a distinct race or ecotype."

I'd be interested to see the citations, too, but I don't doubt that it could happen. The variable that still needs to be addressed, though, is the selective pressure that might be placed on such a group. Greater selective pressure typically leads to more rapid changes (evolution).

[josethayil]

is it true that fench mellifera show a high degree of resistance towards varroa?
i was going through a few sites about these bees and most of them say that the french bees are doing well against varroa recenty.

Anyone knows about this......

[deknow]

Dean!! Really??

...is it really inconceivable that there is some kind of "cultural learning" that happens on a colony scale? we know individual bees can "learn". we know individual bees can communicate with one another. we know that the "superorganism" of the honeybee colony takes on many characteristics of larger organisms (temp regulation, reproduction, etc). is it really that outrageous to suggest the possibility that on a colony level, the bees might well be capable of "learning"?

deknow

[Michael Palmer]

is it really that outrageous to suggest the possibility that on a colony level, the bees might well be capable of "learning"?
deknow

Not outrageous at all. Bee do learn. Obviously. But, does one generation teach the next?

In the case of the French Amm, which bees would teach the new bees there is a flow coming at such and such a time?

No bees that experienced last year's flow are there to teach this year's bees. Would the queens hold a seminar? :-) Sorry. I'm being silly.

For instance...geese fly south. Do they know how and where by birth? Probably not. They follow the previous generation. Could they find their way on their own, with no adults to follow?

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi friends,
the french bee is a Ecotype of central european Biene, similar to the german black bee. In Germany, this bee are 1950 by carniolans (Austria bee) almost completely sidelined.
A special feature is the enormous air force, the bee A.m.m. flies two to three times as much by flowers such as the A. m. ligustica and carnica. See brother Adam "My operation".
Residue in the UNITED STATES should be put under the protection, 300 years adjustment, you have a special Ecotype kind. But where are secure populations in North America?
Greetings from Germany, Hoschy

[Kieck]

A lot of interbreeding goes on in the U. S., and if any "pure" strains of Apis mellifera mellifera are left in North America, I'd be curious to know where. I doubt any exist, but it is possible.

The quantity of hives moving in this country and the distances that those hives move are staggering. And for roughly the last 100 years, A. m. mellifera has been out of favor, largely replaced by A. m. liguistica and A. m. carnica. Just given those circumstances makes me doubt that many locations isolated from interbreeding with managed colonies exist in the continental U. S.

[France]

For instance...geese fly south. Do they know how and where by birth? Probably not. They follow the previous generation. Could they find their way on their own, with no adults to follow?

I am no expert in this areas, all I have is two eyes and an open mind, which is eager to learn, despite my advanced years.
When the talk above goes on about learning, my opinion is ofcourse, all living things do have the capacity to learn to a certain degree. About bees though? There the learning ends, when the hive goes into winter.
(Latest research tels us that bees can count?)
We, you, import bees from Australia and Havaii, let's say... Those bees don't have the clue about our winters and the snow to boot. Nobody told them to get ready for it - much less - how and for how long?
Many such colonies don't make it through first winter. Those that do - they anticipate the next one though - and are pretty good at it, to boot.
That info is perhaps now written in the queen's genes?

I now keep bees in total wilderness and the first year, it was rough to bring them through. They were lost!? Not a clue, as to what was available and when? Those in the know, tell me even now, that having bees there is just plain crazy. Perhaps it is? But the second year, they gave me the best honey that I tasted in my 54 years among them.
Last year I bought two more colonies, just to prove this theory. Same thing - they would have not survived without my help.
This year we will see. They have to survive the minus 40 and minus 50 weather. But, if they make it, I know that in spring they will be ready for whatever they get up here in this Godforsaken wilderness.

As for the statement that geese follow their parents/group when migrating? Well, it is true in a way...
Any bushman knows that it is more to the animal than just look, see, do. . .
Loons for instance:
Parents fly south alone. Sometimes they may join a smallish group if danger from predators is expected. Most birds fly at night to escape predation.
Baby loons fly after their parents are long gone. Sometimes, when lakes are freezing over and have no other choice. They fly totally alone. Nobody shows them how and when and why? It is part of their makeup. They instinctively know when and here to go.
Hummingbirds fly alone and their young have no written clue to follow.
Monarch butterflies are all new too, to their migration to that small piece of forest in Mexico.
Look at fish:
Experts claim that salmon can detect traces of streams from where they were born and they follow that to place of their birth. I think that too is debatable.
Eels of Europe, that live in ponds, far from rivers and even farther from nearest ocean. They migrate to the ocean to spawn. (They spawn in the Sargasso Sea) They will wiggle for many kilometers over the grassy meadows and forest, from pond to the rivers. Most rivers in Karst region of former Yugoslavia, disappear underground, but eels will travel over land to reach another.
There is no way in Heaven or Hell, that eel will, in the ocean, smell trace elements from a home pond - in a farm pasture of Austria!? Kilometres away, totally landlocked?
This migration towards Europe takes them the whole 3 years!
They have in them a system that guides them. When the young are born, larvae, (Leptocephalus) they travel back to place of their origin... They are almost invisible. Glass like, to evade predators. Nature provides it's creatures with proper tools to survive...

How all this is done and accomplished is often not the way the books tell us, nor is the way some wet-behind-the-ears researcher, thinks it is... It is part of that particular creatures' make up and that is what gets them there, or gets them prepared for what awaits them...

[Michael Palmer]

>>Many such colonies don't make it through first winter. Those that do - they anticipate the next one though - and are pretty good at it, to boot.
That info is perhaps now written in the queen's genes?<<

I would say so. The bad genes died out, and the good genes survived. Basic evolution.


>>As for the statement that geese follow their parents/group when migrating? Well, it is true in a way...<<

Maybe geese was a bad example. Young geese do meet their parents, and I suppose some type of information could be shared. But, did you ever see the video of the couple who rescued a flock of young snow geese that were left behind by the migrating flock in northern Manitoba? This couple cared for them as they fledged, and tought them that the trailer was home. The geese would follow the trailer wherever it went...all the way to Texas. When the couple and their geese got to the US border, customs denied entry. The geeses were wild animals, and it is illegal to import wild animals to the US. So...the couple drove north into Canada for a mile, let the geese out of the trailer, and drove south into the US. The geese followed on the wing. Once into the US a mile os so, the couple stopped, opened the ramp on the trailer, and the geese went right in. So importing wild animals at the border. Once in Texas, the couple and their charges cought up with the main flock. Once there, the young flock eagerly joined the main flock.

Those geese would have perished if someone hadn't tought them how and where to fly south.

>>Monarch butterflies are all new too, to their migration to that small piece of forest in Mexico.<<

Better example. Monarch butterflies go through several generations during their north/south migration. Those that fly south to Mexico never met those that flew north in the spring.

>>How all this is done and accomplished is often not the way the books tell us, nor is the way some wet-behind-the-ears researcher, thinks it is... It is part of that particular creatures' make up and that is what gets them there, or gets them prepared for what awaits them<<

That's what I was trying to say. Monarch butterflies don't find their way by having it revealed by previous generations. It's in their genes. I figure bees are the same as Monarchs.

[deknow]

now michael, if you could train geese to carry sheets of foundation across the border, you would be all set!

"geese as mules"

deknow

[France]

No Michael, I did not see that stuff about snow geese.
Problem with wild animals is, that it is unwise for people to interfere with them.
Meaning: To care for them, etc.
They imprint on the humans and are especialy adapt to free food... Animals are more so inclined, than us humans - when it comes to handouts, I mean - work or no work mentality. . .
So, their willingness to migrate, should not be confused with ability or lack of same. . . This is especialy true in cases when creatures are taken, when only hours old? In such cases, the "ways of the wild" are totally unknown to them and they may only show, periodically!?
This is seen in the "Predator" species, when all of a sudden and often without reason, the "wild side" suddenly bursts fore, if only for a moment or two. Such episodes are often the end for the unfortunate creature.
Here in our parts, it is against the law to take wild animals out of their environment and keep them as pets, etc... But some do, under the pretense that they are doing a research, or something of that nature?
There had been quite a few people with flocks of Canada geese, swans, ducks and such. But in all those cases the people had some type of aircraft or another and they flew to the US with them.
This year, we have here in the city, over a hundred wild ducks which are fed daily by "good samaritans" - they are the ones that caused those birds to stay here in the first place. I don't even dare hazard a guess, as to how hard it must be, for those ducks, in our weather? We had a few spells with temperatures down to minus 50 ! Minus 30 or so is almost a regular occurrence, through our long Northern nights.
As you might know, I have a summer home, by the lake, in total wilderness. Through the years I had many animals that I rescued from certain death and I am of the opinion that if the migrating creatures miss the "window of opportunity" and don't leave - than they know that their chances for a safe flight are gone and they abandon the idea/urge. They know wery well, that their chance for survival are better in a known surroundings - than on a journey into unknown.
A few days ago, a cooing of a Morning dove awoke me!? I could not believe my ears and upon jumping out of bed, I peered out of the window and there it was, a lone Morning dove siting on a maple branch, hardly noticeable in the falling snow. It stayed by the bird-feeder all day, but I have not seen it since... Hope it makes it..?
Lately I began to notice that a lot of creatures arrive too early? Perhaps their clocks are altered - similar to our vanishing bees? They embark on a flight of no return?

But, at the end of the day, we do agree on all of the above...
Have a great day.

Regards,
France

[Michael Palmer]

now michael, if you could train geese to carry sheets of foundation across the border, you would be all set!

"geese as mules"

deknow

Good one, Dean! That'll learn em.

[josethayil]

I though this tread was supposed to talk about french bees and the facts about them............ I dont see that in the posts before...........