"Queen Rearing Simplified" by Vince Cook

[mwjohnson]

I picked up a used copy of this book a while back and was wondering if anyone who was familiar with Mr. Cooks technique would like to share their thoughts about it.

It involves the utilization of a split board (what I call a Cloake board) and raising queens in a regular, queenright, freeflying, honey producing colony.

I'm wondering mostly about:

1)What advantage is gained by rearranging the colony 2 times, which while easy enough, seems to be unnecessary to me.

2)For true simplifcation, why bother with the grafting? This is after all, a system for the beek who is looking to raise a few queens, not a breeder with a order to fill and a schedule to keep. O.K...maybe I just need to get over the grafting issue....and try it?

3)On the grafting...Mr. Cook recommends, at least for novices, to cut down the comb around the chosen larvae to almost the midrib to make grafting a little easier. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Mark

[Michael Bush]

>1)What advantage is gained by rearranging the colony 2 times, which while easy enough, seems to be unnecessary to me.

You get a queenless starter (more cells started) and a queenright finisher (the finisher doesn't burn out by being queenless all the time).

>2)For true simplifcation, why bother with the grafting?

Indeed.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmillermethod.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesalleymethod.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#jenter

> This is after all, a system for the beek who is looking to raise a few queens, not a breeder with a order to fill and a schedule to keep. O.K...maybe I just need to get over the grafting issue....and try it?

Probably you should try it. You might even like it. There are advantages, especially once you get the hang of finding and identifying proper aged larvae. Then, compared to the Jenter system, you can skip two trips to the beeyard (one to confine the queen and one to release her) and if the queen decided not to lay in the box, you can still find some proper larvae somewhere to graft.

>3)On the grafting...Mr. Cook recommends, at least for novices, to cut down the comb around the chosen larvae to almost the midrib to make grafting a little easier. Any thoughts?

I've never tried it, but it sounds more messy and complicated to me.

[mwjohnson]

Mr. Bush
I will check out those links when I get some spare time, it's been a while since I last read through them. THANKS.

But back to Mr. Cook...
He suggests:
Day 1... putting then queen on a comb of unsealed brood and in the middle of a hive body and then filling the remainder of that box with empty comb, and then an excluder.
He then puts bees and brood and honey/pollen over the excluder.
And then a feeder.

Day 8...about miday... put the upper box of bees and brood on the bottom board. Then replace the feeder, put the split board over that, and the box with the queen over that.
Day 8...about 4 hrs later ...give the bees in the lowest box the grafts.

Day 9...set up the finisher...put the queen back on the bottom board, then excluder, then the started cells, then the feeder. Take away the split board.

Day 17... remove finished cells,remove feeder, add supers.

Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is, why put the bees and brood (and grafts) when starting the cells on the bottom?

I must be missing something.

Mark

[Velbert]

You need lotsts of young active nurse bees


Mr. Bush
I will check out those links when I get some spare time, it's been a while since I last read through them. THANKS.

But back to Mr. Cook...
He suggests:
Day 1... putting then queen on a comb of unsealed brood and in the middle of a hive body and then filling the remainder of that box with empty comb, and then an excluder. I would place a frame of honey and pollen in this box so stores will be at hand for feeding the brood in the bottom
He then puts bees and brood and honey/pollen over the excluder.
And then a feeder.

Day 8...about miday... put the upper box of bees and brood on the bottom board. ON DAY 7 I WOULD PULL A FRAME OF HATCHING-2 DAY OLD LARVA AND PLACE ABOVE THE QUEEN EXCLUDER TO DRAW UP ACTIVE NURSE BEES BEFORE THE REVERSAL ON DAY 8, I WOULD DO THIS IN LATE EVENING.THEN MAKE THE REVERSAL EARLY MORNING OF DAY 8, THEN PULL THE FRAME OF YOUNG LARVA OUT SHAKE OFF THE NURSE BEES BACK INTO THE BOX THAT YOU HAVE PLACED ON THE BOTTOM AND PLACE YOU A FEEDER ABOUT HALF FULL OF FEED, PLACE YOUR DIVIDER BOARD ON WITH BOX WITH QUEEN ON TOP (I WOULD LET THEM STAY LIKE THIS UNTIL LATE EVENING THEN DO YOUR GRAFT AND PLACE THEM IN THE LOWER BOX WITH A FRAME OF POLLEN ONE ONE SIDE OF THE GRAFT then feed again. then let the starter do their job for 24-36 hours.
Then replace the feeder, put the split board over that, and the box with the queen over that.
Day 8...about 4 hrs later ...give the bees in the lowest box the grafts.
if you do it this way you will not have enough active nurse bees because they will be in the upper box with the queen and brood that you have separated with your divider board.

Day 9...set up the finisher...put the queen back on the bottom board, then excluder, then the started cells, then the feeder. Take away the split board.

Day 17... remove finished cells,remove feeder, add supers.

Anyway, I guess what I'm asking is, why put the bees and brood (and grafts) when starting the cells on the bottom? BECAUSE A LOT OF WHAT THE BEES DO IN THE HIVE IS BASED ON 2 CONDITIONS (INTURNAL, STRONG PLENTY OF PROPER AGED BEES AND STORES) AND (EXTURNAL,IF NECTURE AND POLLEN IS COMING IN IT JUST MAKES THINGS GO BETTER kind like if you got a job making money compared to just a few dollars you will hold back in what you will do with what you have also the the worker that are of age will enter the main entrance when returning to the hive making a more crowded condition ( make sure you have an entrance for you box on top also make sure they have plenty of stores)

I must be missing something.

Mark

[mwjohnson]

That helps Velbert.
So then, what do you think of this as a "simple" way for a small sideline type operation to raise some queens, without tying up to much time or equipment on queen rearing?

Pros? Cons?

Mark

[tecumseh]

sounds like a slight twist on the cloake method described by sue colby in about 1980.

mwhohnson writes:
1)What advantage is gained by rearranging the colony 2 times, which while easy enough, seems to be unnecessary to me.
tecumseh> you are trying to shuffle the queen into one box (where she will later be isolated from the part of the hive that will accept the cells) and get the field bees to enter the queenless portion of the box. like velbert I would suggest when you make up the queenless portion and prior to inserting the cloak board or double screen you would want to have one frame of young larvae to draw up the nurse bees.

2)For true simplifcation, why bother with the grafting? This is after all, a system for the beek who is looking to raise a few queens, not a breeder with a order to fill and a schedule to keep. O.K...maybe I just need to get over the grafting issue....and try it?
tecumseh>you could of course do the above manipulation and use a technique that does not require grafting. do the above but tweak it by using the alley or smith method.

3)On the grafting...Mr. Cook recommends, at least for novices, to cut down the comb around the chosen larvae to almost the midrib to make grafting a little easier. Any thoughts?
tecumseh>I do this. I use an automatic grafting needle that has a flat side (you hold this end in the palm of your hand while grafting) and I use this side of the tool to knock the top off the cell which make retrieving the grafted larvae a bit easier to remove (you need not go straight down and straight up to remove a larvae). knocking the tops off the cells work fairly well on newer wax not so well on darker wax. for myself (who eyesight is gettin' old) knocking down a line of wax also id's exactly which larvae is ready for grafting when I peek thru the magnifying lens.

I am not certain if your book covered thisbut one major advantage of the cloake method descibed my sue colby was there was NO finishing colony. the primary advantage is you need not collect 8 to 10 pounds of bees for a swarm box and the unit can be return to a queenright condition and then be reused quite quickly.

[mwjohnson]

Tecumseh;
I appreciate your clarification.
Tweaking it to a non-grafting method, kinda of a Cook-Alley approach, was kinda what I was thinking...

The thing that appeals to me is exactly what your saying...not to much wasted time/resources setting up starters/finishers and such.
And best of all, I'm gonna think that I'm gonna get some honey from that colony in addition to my batch of queens.

Where can I read about Sue Colby's technique? I knew she had a DVD on I.I. , but was unaware of a book.

Mark

[tecumseh]

mr johnson writes:
The thing that appeals to me is exactly what your saying...not to much wasted time/resources setting up starters/finishers and such.
And best of all, I'm gonna think that I'm gonna get some honey from that colony in addition to my batch of queens.

tecumseh:
you have defintely defined 'la difference'. with a swarm box (whereby you have scooped up several pounds of bees and typically from your most prolific hive) you have to tell yourself that the queens you produce is the honey crop.

as far as I know Cobey did not write a book on queen rearing and the technique is not hers although she describe it after visiting New Zealand. Book and page... June 1979 edition of the American Bee Journal...page 421 titled... A New Zealander's Unique System of Queen Rearing.

Hope that helps..

[mwjohnson]

Tecumseh
U bet that reference helps.
I know a guy that has a collection going waay back...I'll ask him if he can dig it out.

BTW, Mr. Cook, whilst a Brit, was New Zealand's Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries, & Food National Beekeeping Adviser.

Apparently, N.Z.er's refer to it as the Cook method...

[Michael Bush]

Personally I think this method is an improvement over the Alley Method:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkins1886.htm

It is also from New Zealand.

But it's also a lot like this one:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm

Both are graftless and involve strips of brood. This one doesn't require the strips:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeshopkinsmethod.htm

[Velbert]

http://www.box.net/shared/pakjm8pk0c

DOWN LOAD FOR CELL BUILDER STARTER,FINISHER

[BeeAware]

Tecumseh;
I appreciate your clarification.
Tweaking it to a non-grafting method, kinda of a Cook-Alley approach, was kinda what I was thinking...

The thing that appeals to me is exactly what your saying...not to much wasted time/resources setting up starters/finishers and such.
And best of all, I'm gonna think that I'm gonna get some honey from that colony in addition to my batch of queens.

[/Where can I read about Sue Colby's technique? I knew she had a DVD on I.I. , but was unaware of a book.]

Mark

I use a Cloake board for queen rearing. I graft some and others I use the Hopkins Method and place the prepared frame in the top box above the Cloake Board. Both methods produce good queens. You can get a printer friendly version of Sue Colby's description of the Cloake Board method from the website of Leeds Beekeeper's Association. Just gooble it.

[mwjohnson]

Thanks Beeaware.
I really gooble this stuff up...:)

[mwjohnson]

Hi Beware
This the one?
http://www.leedsbeekeepers.org.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=225

Thanks again
Mark