Cutting Hand-Holds

[belt152]

Hi Guys,

Can someone explain to me how the hand-holds are cut in the hive and super boxes? How do the retailers do it?

I'm sure it is either cut by a router or most likely a shaper. Has anyone seen this set-up and is it something a person building his/her own boxes could do?

Thanks!

[riverrat]

I use a dado blade and a table saw

[belt152]

Do you have a jig to hold the board down and then raise the blade?
I have seen hand-holds as you describe.
The dado set up I use only has a width of 7/8" and I can hardly get my fingers in that space.
I have heard that some will clamp the board on the table saw with the blade set on a 45 degree and crank it up vertical to create the hand-hold.
Anyone done or seen this?

Thanks!

[alpha6]

Dude,

Just nail a cleat to each side. More to grip, easier to lift and heck of a lot easier to fabricate then cutting a handhold into the wood.

[belt152]

Dude,

My question is how are the commercial hand-holds cut. :)
I made 40 medium boxes today and in the midst of screwing on cleats I pondered how the hand-holds were cut.
I'm mainly asking for pollination purposes since the cleats take up more space.

[Michael Palmer]

I use a dado blade and a table saw

Me too. And, I clamp a block on the fence as a stop.

[brooksbeefarm]

Like river rat said dado blade.Myself I like to screw a 1x2 board across the front and back for handles.The way I see it if you cut a1/2 in. into the front,sides and back for hand holds you only have a 1/4 in. left and this weakens the hive in these areas and cuts down on insulation in these areas.But I have to say i!ve never had one break through.Jack

[SCFarms]

I also do the same thing, but I rob some of the chipper blades from a second dado set so that I am cutting handles that are 1 1/8” wide instead of 7/8”wide. Makes it easier on my fingers that way.

[Bizzybee]

A custom blade is used to make the scalloped cut at the mills where they are built.

There was a thread not long ago that described set up and cranking the blade into the stock. I'm sure a search through the forums will pop it up for you.

Personally I don't have the time to spend on it building as much as I tend to build, when I find the time to do that even. A dado cut is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. I have also been know to use cleats and like them best actually, but yes you do have a point when it comes to packing them up.

[BEES4U]

Making Hand Holds on a Table Saw
The most often asked question on making your own beekeeping equipment: How do you make professional looking hand holds? The answer appeared in the July issue of Bee Culture. You make a jig that holds the tops and sides over the table saw blade. Taking multiple light cuts, tilt the arbor while the blade spins, raise the blade a little more and return to the 90 degree position. Raise the blade again and tilt. Repeat until done. You are cutting sideways, using the saw’s set to remove the wood. The result is superior to the commercial molding cutters because there is no tear out. The disadvantage: it takes almost a minute to cut one hand hold.

In the near future, we’ll have the plans available at www.petersieling.com .
Box factories use an arbor that can cut out the hand holds
_______________________________________________

Hive making workshop at the EAS Conference

<>Taught by David Peregmon, one of the EAS Directors. This sounds interesting and I expect to attend, Thursday, Aug 9 at the U of Delaware. David works on hands in his spare time—physical therapy, I think. He sees a lot of hands damaged by woodworking machinery so you can expect a lot of warnings about safety.
Most of my power tools are 50-100 years old, so I don’t even know what safety guards look like. It’s a good rule of thumb, whether you have safety guards on not: make jigs that cover the blades so you can’t even reach them with your hands.

Regards,
Ernie

[riverrat]

I got acccess to a company that can build the special cutter to build professional looking hand holds. They will be on the expensive side for the initial investment but would come with replaceble cutting teeth. I would say it would be around 200.00 to 300.00 for cutter and body that would fit your table saw. How many would be interested in buying one. If there is enough interest I will check things out

[MapMan]

Search results:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223181&highlight=handholds


MM

[MapMan]

Making Hand Holds on a Table Saw
The most often asked question on making your own beekeeping equipment: How do you make professional looking hand holds? The answer appeared in the July issue of Bee Culture. You make a jig that holds the tops and sides over the table saw blade. Taking multiple light cuts, tilt the arbor while the blade spins, raise the blade a little more and return to the 90 degree position. Raise the blade again and tilt. Repeat until done. You are cutting sideways, using the saw’s set to remove the wood. The result is superior to the commercial molding cutters because there is no tear out. The disadvantage: it takes almost a minute to cut one hand hold.


Wrong! No way does it have to take a minute to cut a handhold. You don't have to raise the blade in increments - use only one tilt up to cut, and then back down to position another side of the box. Easiest thing to do - I don't understand why the concept of cutting handholds is so daunting to folks making their own equipment! For specifics see my procedure in the search link I just provided. Easy as pie!

MM

[BEES4U]

It was one of several suggestions to one persons question.
Ernie

[MapMan]

It was one of several suggestions to one persons question.
Ernie

Sorry, Eanie, didn't mean to offend, but your post from someone's blog suggested that making hand holds is difficult and time-consuming, when in fact, any chimp can do it.

This link lost the images, but here is at least a description of the process. If I wasn't so lazy, and had a means to post pictures, I would.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=1526.0


MM

[France]

Yes, that is the way it is done on a table saw.
Only don't try to do it in one shot - do it in small bites. . .



Do you have a jig to hold the board down and then raise the blade?
I have seen hand-holds as you describe.
The dado set up I use only has a width of 7/8" and I can hardly get my fingers in that space.
I have heard that some will clamp the board on the table saw with the blade set on a 45 degree and crank it up vertical to create the hand-hold.
Anyone done or seen this?

Thanks!

[MapMan]

Yes, that is the way it is done on a table saw.
Only don't try to do it in one shot - do it in small bites. . .

I haven't had any problems with slowing feeding the blade into the wood. You have to remember -- you are working at an angle, so the teeth are naturally taking slow bites into the wood. Don't expect to raise the blade angle quickly - take it slow and easy, and the cut will be clean. Pine is relatively soft, not like a hardwood which would bind and burn.

I would recommend only using this technique on a cabinet saw which has the horsepower to do the cut, and not use a thin kerf blade. Use a blade with an ATB (alternative top bevel), and you aren't going to burn the wood. Also, I have weights which I place on top of the box - don't ever try this procedure without either clamping or weighing the box down!

As a side note, running wood at an angle into a saw blade is a common way to produce wood cove molding, and if done correctly, is a relatively safe procedure:

http://www.woodworkerszone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cove_Molding_on_the_Table_Saw

In this case with cove molding, you should only raise the blade in small increments - working with the tilted blade on your bee box hand holds is a different procedure than hitting the blade at a 45°...


MM

[belt152]

MapMan, can you post or send me a picture of the jig. I have a pretty good idea of what it looks like but a picture it worth a thousand words!

RiverRat, could you post or send me details of the cutter. I'm picturing a tapered dado blade type device.

Thanks guys!!

[riverrat]

MapMan, can you post or send me a picture of the jig. I have a pretty good idea of what it looks like but a picture it worth a thousand words!

RiverRat, could you post or send me details of the cutter. I'm picturing a tapered dado blade type device.

Thanks guys!!



I am going to get in touch with my tool grinder at work and see what it will cost to grind the removble blades I will machine the body my self Can you open and look aat dxf file sif so I will send them to you when I gt it modeled up

The intitial investment of the cutter bodie is what will be costly

[MapMan]

MapMan, can you post or send me a picture of the jig. I have a pretty good idea of what it looks like but a picture it worth a thousand words!

RiverRat, could you post or send me details of the cutter. I'm picturing a tapered dado blade type device.

Thanks guys!!

I'll try to take some pics tomorrow after I plow my drive again! Looks like we are gonna get slammed with another foot. This season is beginning like last season, where we got ten feet of snow...

The jig is crude and simple, but a picture is a thousand words or something like that. I'll email it to someone who wants to place it on their image hosting site. I don't have the time or inclination to do that, as I had a project come in today which has a tight deadline, as usual.

MM

[Gene Weitzel]

......I would recommend only using this technique on a cabinet saw which has the horsepower to do the cut, and not use a thin kerf blade.....

I can second that recommendation. I use a 2 hp saw with a 3/8" dado blade and it does a very nice job of cutting the handholds in one pass. I start with the blade tilted all the way over and gradually raise it to vertical and then back down to full tilt (ok that's two passes, but there is no cutting taking place on the downward pass, I do it for safety reasons and it re-positions the blade for the next workpiece). If you turn the crank just right, you can almost feel the blade feed itself. If there is much resistance, then you are either cranking it too fast or your blade is dull.

[Josh Carmack]

As I have access to a fair amount of equipment, I intend to copy some supers myself. I have an old radial arm saw, hitting on 45 years old. You can find them on ebay for a C note plus shipping. Using a radial arm, you are able to turn the blade at 90 deg from normal. you can then lower the blade about an eighth of an inch into the lumber and slide the motor back and forth the width of the grip. repeating at 1/8" intervals until desired depth is reached. Remove the 10" blade and substitute an 8" or smaller to obtain shape as desired. After thinking about an idea came to mind. During winter the handholds may cause cold spots, so why not just use the scrap lumber used to build the supers, and nail to the outside to make handles. To get the standard depths of different size supers you'll have to use the next larger size of lumber which will give you a scrap perfect for making handles! This idea was bolstered by a book I recently read by an older former record setting beek that did the same thing. (nailing on scraps for handles that is)

[Josh Carmack]

If anyone would like to see this method I can post it on youtube. It'll take less time than the table saw method mentioned, but it will not look exactly like the factory ones but will be functional and take about 30 to 45 seconds per hold.

[bee crazy]

Hey Josh, great idea posting a video on you tube.
Please post the link
Thanks:)

[BEES4U]

:thumbsup:
Great idea and I can save it for future referance!
This will help the visual learners.
I like to see how other people sove a task.
Ernie

[BEES4U]

Hellow moderators and others.
Do you think their is value to a wood working "zone"?
I think so. But, that is my opinion.
Ernie

[odfrank]

I use a shaper blade holder on my table saw with cove blades. I made and placed a jig the correct size attached to my rip fence so that I can lower a side onto the spinning blade, move it around the opening of the jig, and it cuts a professional looking handle hold. I do have some problem with a bit of tear out on some cuts. It is even easier to do on the assembled super, more to hold onto.

[berkshire bee]

I got decent handholds by making a jig on hinges. There's no cranking of the blade up and down. You clamp the part to the fixture, lower onto the saw blade, slide it over and repeat. Since the fixture is hinged and has a stop, as you slide it over on the saw, the depth of cut changes. The handholds aren't curved like the commercial boxes but work as well. Once you're set up, it's probably 30 sec per.

Another thought: I have a motor off a delta radial arm saw. I've been wanting to rig it up on a pivoting bracket with a small side cutting blade and a handle. It could be set up for the one specific purpose of cutting handholds. Clamp the part, pull on the handle and in less than 10 seconds, it would be done. Just need to find time to get around to it.

[kyfarmer]

I use a 3 1/2 inch clock makers drill bit and a homemade jig on my drill press. It tales about 10 seconds to make a hand hold. My jig is simple, a wooden L with a 3/8 cleat on the top of the L to give some angle to the piece. slick and easy.

[Ravenseye]

External cleats attached to the boxes work fine but take up space. I prefer to be able to stack boxes side by side for storage, etc. Why not just cut the handhold with one rise of a dado blade so that the finished hold isn't "scalloped", it's just a wide groove cut into all four sides. Make the groove as wide as your fattest fingers, plus a little. I have a few old boxes that were hand built a long time ago and the holds are cut just like that. They look fine and are perfectly functional.

[belt152]

Thanks to all who have replied. I look forward to seeing pictures from mapman and riverrat. I have made a jig I think will work on the tablesaw and will try and cut some hand-holds tomorrow. If everything goes well I will post some pictures.

Thanks again!:)

[HVH]

I got acccess to a company that can build the special cutter to build professional looking hand holds. They will be on the expensive side for the initial investment but would come with replaceble cutting teeth. I would say it would be around 200.00 to 300.00 for cutter and body that would fit your table saw. How many would be interested in buying one. If there is enough interest I will check things out
I might be interested if the quality was there and the cutter head was one of the common heads that take different profiles.

[RDY-B]

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cutter_build.htm
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cutter_use.htm
;) RDY-B

[riverrat]

I might be interested if the quality was there and the cutter head was one of the common heads that take different profiles.

It will be quality cnc machined and yes it will take differnet profiles:thumbsup:

[cedargrove]

I have ordered a magic molder head for my table saw. I ordered profile P-5, but I think profile P-57 may be a better fit. I will report my results when the tools arrive.

http://www.bladesllc.com/cuttermagicmoulder.html

http://www.bladesllc.com/cuttermagicmoulder1.html

[Josh Carmack]

Hey guys, I made a video, but I got the aspect ratio incorrect so until I have time to correct it here is the skewed (squeezed on the sides) video, I'll post a new link as and edit to this post when it's finished

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUMfIgTbfKs&fmt=18


Also uploading higher qual if I can figure out where the qual was lost. I think it was YT that compressed the video bad enough to not be able to see detail.

[BEES4U]

Thank you for the video. It was informative and to the point.
Ernie

[odfrank]

I have old shaper heads (one is a Craftsman) similar to this one and use cove blades similar to 1149. My blades have a bigger radius. I put the super together, and then lower it down on the spinning shaper head, and move it around my jig.


http://www.toolkraft.com/Molding_Head_Cutters_for_Radial_Arm_Saw.htm

[belt152]

Hi Guys,

First, I want to thank everyone who participated in the thread.
I took a "Vision" on Mapman's jig and decided to try and make my own. I mainly use mediums so I made up 2 jigs for my table saw (one for ends and one for sides).

After having cutting hand-holds on 12 mediums today, I would challenge anyone to try and pick it from a commercial made one.

They turned out far beyond my greatest expectation. Once I had the jig set-up it took on average 1 minute to cut each one. This is probably equal to the time of ripping,cutting,painting, and attaching cleats!

If anyone is interested in some photo's or the jig set-up just let me know.

Thanks again!

[HVH]

It will be quality cnc machined and yes it will take differnet profiles:thumbsup:

I wish insert tooling came with more carbide blade options but if steel blades are all that is available then frequent touch up work will be needed digging into all that end grain. I have wanted a head for the table saw for years and think this would be a good time to justify it. I would like one for the radial arm saw as well but it has a 1 inch spindle and would probably be too expensive. My shaper has a 1.25" spindle and I already have a head for that.

[HVH]

It will be quality cnc machined and yes it will take differnet profiles:thumbsup:

I wish insert tooling came with more carbide blade options but if steel blades are all that is available then frequent touch up work will be needed digging into all that end grain. I have wanted a head for the table saw for years and think this would be a good time to justify it.

[tecumseh]

belt 152 writes:
This is probably equal to the time of ripping,cutting,painting, and attaching cleats!

tecumseh:
uhhh... probable not. and what have you done beside incorporate a hand hold that is not the least bit ergonomic and makes the box less of a thermal shield for the bees?---> you have made your job more difficult and the box a less substantial dwelling for the bees.

the small 'california' cleats I use cost nothing (because they are scrap) and they do reinforce the weakest part of a bee box (the rabbet). they also provide a small lip so when I seperate boxes it provides a nice level spot as a pivot point to tip the upper box without fully removing the box.

ps... an old verston of a hand hold cutter I use to use was constructed from an old raidal arm saw equiped with a dado head.

[Josh Carmack]

Ok guys, here is the new link to the same video, just higher quality and correct aspect ratio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUMfIgTbfKs&fmt=18

Ps, Using a dado or shaper setup would be tenfold faster

[Alex Cantacuzene]

Many of our homemade supers have the hand-holds made with a dado bit using a radial arm saw. We are quite satisfied with them. Then we were given some old full size sheets of 3/4" hard-wood plywood that was headed for the dump. Nomally I don't like to use plywood on the hives but this was too good to pass up. However, any exposed "headwood" invites rot and so I used a "Mitr Lok" router bit. Yes, a bit costly but an absolute beautiful corner joint. In this case, on the plywood hives, I used cleats as I did not want an area where delamination could start. The cleats are definitely a good alternative and there is no thin spot in the boxes. The radiused handholds are still a challengefor me, just for knowing how to do it, but other than that the above methods are good enough for me. Of course, this is just a hobbyist talking. Take care and have fun