Wood Glue in Hive Bodies?

[Musashi]

Hi all!

I have just taken possession of some medium supers from
Brushy Mountain. First off, I love them. The dovetail ends are incredibly accurately cut and fit glove tight. I can pretty much put them together by just pushing them together.

Which brings me to the wood glue. Is the glue necessary for LONG term longevity? Will the wood expand or contract in a negative way if I do NOT use wood glue?

Let me also add that I have a number of Cypress hive bodies from Rossman Apiaries and the wood is very very nice, but there are not dovetails ends. They are just kinda flat and I had to use 2 spanner tools to keep the pieces of wood together so I could nail it together. Needless to say, I used wood glue on these as they weren't tight to begin with.

That is to say, it's not a matter of me being lazy about not using glue on the Brushy Mountain, it's just that they fit so incredibly tight all by themsevles there isn't the tiniest room for glue. Obviously I could add it but it seems it would just leak all over and make a big mess, even if only a little drop is used.

If wood glue makes that much difference long term, I'll use it and just clean up the excess glue. If not I'll just nail together. I also use 3 coats of latex primer and 2 coats of latex paint on the exterior and focus on the joints as well with the primer and paint.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

[France]

Well, it is all about personal preference.
By my observation of hives in my 53 years among them and being a Cabinet Maker from the Old world, glue is actually not at all necessary. When hives are made as they should, (finger joints) they are ofcourse nailed on every joint/finger and to take them apart will take some force and than some. . .
Some find that a dub of glue on frames helps? But again, a well placed nail (on an alternating angle) is all that is needed.

[Musashi]

Thanks France,

I was highly suspicious the glue at least on these Brushy Mountain supers is not required. They fit together so well, it's frankly amazing to me. And they will take nails in all the fingers.

I also quit using glue on my frames. I put enough nails on the thing and they seem sturdy. As they're not directly subjected to the weather I found glue was just one more chemical I didn't need to add to the interior of the hive.

I still believe that cypress in Florida is a much better wood choice for me than pine, but there is no denying the Brushy Mountain stuff looks very well crafted. Of course the cypress weighs quite a bit more which gives it a long lasting perm nature to it but even that might be a bit of of hindrance full of honey.

[No_Bivy]

glue can't hurt.....I would use a waterproof glue though

[Musashi]

I have some gorilla glue for sale now lol.

Some pieces, like the telescoping top from Rossman advise to NOT use glue so the top can flex during weather changes slightly.

[HVH]

glue can't hurt.....I would use a waterproof glue though

I agree. I'm not sure what it means to say that you don't need glue because its obvious that people get by without it. The question is really, are there advantages in using glue. I use the polyurethane glues because an application of this glue with a cheap chemical brush allows just the right amount of glue to foam beyond the joint and dry as a solid barrier. When the glue dries the boxes can be painted over the joint and glue and form a perfect barrier to water. Wood expands as it takes up moisture and joint expansion/contraction is the biggest enemy to any wood project. So while nails and staples can work for years there is still good reason for glue. The boxes that I have that were glued with poly have joints that have not moved at all - they look like the day I painted them. My other boxes have signs of wear at the joints caused by wood movement (always the worst near the rabbited ends because fasteners don't hold up very well when applied through the thin rabbited edge. A glued joint leaves no openings for moisture accumulation while adding a lot of extra structural integrity.

Ask 6 beekeepers and get 7 answers.:)

[Michael Bush]

I often don't glue them. They hold together better if I do.

[Keith Benson]

Any nailed joint can become loose with the seasonal movement of wood. Even cross nailed joints. Glue should reduce this considerably. Many woodworkers on this forum and others have stated, particularly with frames but also with hive bodies that modern glues are the real source of strength in these joints. I have also read in many a woodworking magazine that this is the case. I do not have primary data to support the claims because A) I don't have the equipment to make the measurements, B) wouldn't make beekeeping kit just to break it C) have a full time job thank you very much and D) would likely hurt myself badly trying to do something like that. This is one of those cases where I put my faith in others more knowledgeable than I.

Now it may well be that your hive bodies don't last long enough for gluing to be worthwhile, but I think it is worth it and that the boxes I have glued have been better off in the long run than the ones I did not. Having said that I don't have many unglued boxes so there may be a bias there.

Keith

[Sundance]

I always glue....... frames and boxes. I used to use
urethane based stuff (like Gorilla) but have switched
to Titebond III.

[No_Bivy]

gorrilla ain't the best......:waiting:

[Michael Bush]

I use either the exterior Titebond or the exterior Elmer's carpenter's glue. Screws are well worth doing. Buy the 2" deck screws. Drill pilot holes with the countersink. Don't suck them up too tight or they will split. They will greatly outlast the nails.

[sds888]

ok this aybe off the subject a little but when you order complete unassembled hives from brushy mountain do they come with the nails or do you have to buy them seperate. If you do how many nails for two hives and what sizes for the hives and the frames. My first equiptment came assembled.

On the note for actually of what this is talking about. I use to do trim carpentry and while I didnt do cabinet work I have found glue has many purposes. Not only does it hold better it also closes the cut cells of the wood which lessens rot. JMHO.

[Keith Benson]

to Titebond III.


Good stuff that. :thumbsup:


Screws are well worth doing.

That too.

Keith

[Galaxy]

I glue and use Titebond III. It seems to me that Gorilla glue would require considerable more labor to remove the hardened glue that foams out of the joints as it sets up.

I use galvanized ring box nails and a palm nailer to drive them in. It goes very fast.

[NashBeek]

sds888;
It seems that I read somewhere that it takes 47 nails to put a hive body together(don't remember where) but Brushy Mtn use to provide nails with the complete hives but not the separate hive bodies and supers also the bodies are not dovetailed joints but are box joints!!

[sds888]

Thank you Lee placed my order tonight to make sure I got the free shipping.

[Musashi]

Ok, clearly I don't know the difference between dove tailed and box joints. Seriously I don't lol. Ohh..google where are you? ;-)

[Ravenseye]

I use Gorilla glue and staples. The foaming glue does fill in the inconsistencies and the double legs on those staples grab real tight.

[NashBeek]

:D Musashi; You're not the only one it seems that Brushy Mtn doesn't know either! I would use glue to hold the bodies better that sun get hot in NC and will pull nails out, Good Luck.

[KQ6AR]

If the nails don't come with the hive bodies, they are just 7penny hot dipped box nails.
You can get them at the hardware store. I've been told not to buy 8penny, they split the wood more.

[mwjohnson]

HI Musashi
Here is my 2 cents....

You said they fit so tight that there isn't room for glue....but you know that's the whole idea...glued joints are supposed to fit "perfect"...you don't really gain much strength when you glue up a sloppy joint.

I use polyurethane too, but mostly to seal the end grain cells inside the joint. I have thrown out 3 year old boxes that weren't glued...FWIW.

I use counterbored screws: 2" for the rabbet, opposed by 2 1/2" on the all other top and bottom corners (I build box jointed) and nail the rest of the fingers with 3" Maze Brand "splitless siding nails (MADE IN USA).

Rack the boxes square, and set your nails with the glue wet. You can quickly clean the dried excess foam off the outside with 80/100 grit sandpaper and a belt sander.

A sharp chisel is best to clean the inside corners, IMHO.

Fill holes after you prime with a latex caulk.

I know that many will think I'm going overboard...but when I have already got quite a little time (albiet little cash) invested, I can justify spending the little extra time it takes.

Mark

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I recommend gluing and screwing. I prefer the Gorilla Glue but I have switched to the Titebond III per recommendations from here. Never bothered removing the hard foam bubbles from the GG.

The best results I have had came by countersinking the screw holes and using #7 pine screws (tan in color) 1 5/8 long, use the 1 1/4 in the top finger as it is thinner wood.

I order my boxes from Browning Cut Stock as I like their style of finger joints and they don't pre-punch the holes. I get irritated that the others will try to pre-punch holes and are invariably not centered.

When considering the amount of humidity that the ends of the boards take up; boiling your boxes in para/rosin takes care of that. ;)

[Flyman]

Formally used Gorilla Glue but also switched to Titebond III. The exterior bubbles with GG come off pretty easily if you don't let it set too long...usually the next day. I leave the "bead of GG on the inside. I think the bees have a easier time with SHB if they don't have a tight corner to hide in.

Tom

[Musashi]

Interesting idea about the tight corner. Would make logical sense that the beetles couldn't hide in the tight corner. I was always worried about the bees having access to the chemicals in the glue.

Durn it you all. You pretty much have me convinced I at least need to brush on some glue. I'm only hesitant at this point because I already assembled the things and was just waiting to nail them. I suppose I have two months to work on this so I can undo and paint some glue on the joints.

Speaking of squaring them. I've just been using a t-square but as that only hits two sides at a time, any suggestions as to a way to make them more square prior to nailing?

[MapMan]

I always glue....... frames and boxes. I used to use
urethane based stuff (like Gorilla) but have switched
to Titebond III.

I used Gorilla on exactly one project, and then tossed the bottle...

I don't like the foaming and expansion of urethane adhesives. :( Also, they need to have some moisture present for a good bond to occur.

Titebond II for interior and Titebond III for exterior are the only choices as as far as I'm concerned, although I think I heard that Elmers has come out with a new exterior waterproof glue. I might give it a try, if it is cheaper than Titebond.

MM

[MapMan]

Interesting idea about the tight corner. Would make logical sense that the beetles couldn't hide in the tight corner. I was always worried about the bees having access to the chemicals in the glue.

Durn it you all. You pretty much have me convinced I at least need to brush on some glue. I'm only hesitant at this point because I already assembled the things and was just waiting to nail them. I suppose I have two months to work on this so I can undo and paint some glue on the joints.

Speaking of squaring them. I've just been using a t-square but as that only hits two sides at a time, any suggestions as to a way to make them more square prior to nailing?


Glue them. I see very few joints even in fine furniture where a tight joint at assembly maintains its strength with seasonal moisture fluctuations. Old furniture craftsmen relied on hide glues, and in restoring antiques, I have yet to see a piece of furniture which hasn't used some additional means of supporting a joint, be it pegs, wedges, nails, screws or glue - except sometimes in the case of dovetails, where the joint itself is designed to withstand pressure from racking. And, even though you mentioned that your boxes have dovetail joints, they are actually finger/box joints.

As to keeping the box square, see Michael Bush's site for information on an assembly jig for boxes. I use something similar to his design, modified to fit my process.

MM

[NashBeek]

Put a box together, square it up then nail a small strip of wood inside and outside. You now have a jig to align your box to make it square, also if you're going to use glue you need a hole for the glue to drip out at each corner. This holds it square untill you nail it.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

any suggestions as to a way to make them more square prior to nailing?

Cut a plywood board 20 x 24, set a perfectly squared box on it and GLUE AND SCREW 1 x 2 boards tight against all four sides of the box into the plywood. Remove box and behold a box jig!

I've been using the same one for years and wouldn't make a box without it.

[GRIMBEE]

Gorilla glue on all joints of hive bodies and frames for me. The bees glue is like wood glue and you can break frames trying to pull and pry them out. They need the extra strength and the joints are the first to start rotting.

[Durandal]

Glue is actually a batter fastener than nails when using box joints. The nails are simply holding the joints together long enough for the glue to do its thing.

A box joints strength is from the interlocking surface area. By simply nailing and not gluing you you waste the cut.

Almost any wood glue will work. Stuff like Gorilla glue works, but costs a lot more and requires more effort to clean up. You can use a wood glue designed for outside to cover your bases, but the seal a good box joint makes once glued should be tight enough to not matter. The non-treated wood will decay around the glue before even a regular wood glue will decay in a box joint.

On stuff I make (nuc boxes and repairs) I use a rabbit. Box cuts take too long even with a jig. The rabbits are strong enough. I crown staple them together.