another foundation question

[VanBeek in MI]

Fist of all I would like to thank everyone on your replies to my threads.
You guys are great!
Now I have another question on foundation, a few of you replied to my last thread and said go "foundationless". Are you saying just put empty frames in the supers? and if so, would it be 10 frames in a 10 frame super or hive?
Or would it be something else like 8 or 9?
Right now I am thinking using plasticell in my hives and wired wax in 6 5/8 supers but foundationless sounds interesting and fun.
Thanks again for all your valued input.


God Bless

Jim

[tecumseh]

not certain if everyone would agree (I assume some would not) but I typically suggest that when you begin that you need to do is to put the number of frames in a box for which they are designed (ie 10 in a 10 frame box or 8 in an 8 frame box). this gives you a better chance that the frames will be built and drawn properly.

no foundation: well some might suggest this.... although I suspect at least a starter strip would at least partially insure that the comb built and drawn in the box was not constructed in a totally random fashion (and thereby unusable if ANY manipulation was required).

[brooksbeefarm]

I agree with tecumseh, but might add that if you use plastic in brood box,make sure they draw it all out before you put wired wax foundation super on top, or they will go to work on the wax foundation and not draw all the plastic out.I also found out that if you mix wax and plastic frames together in the same super,they won!t touch the plastic or if they do they make a mess of the plastic frames.Unless someone says otherwise,I think if you don!t use a starter strip in your frames,your going to have a gummed up mess.Good luck. Jack

[Musashi]

Starter strip can be wood, foundation, wax (embossed or non-embossed), and you could probabaly put cardboard strips from a Cap't Crunch cereal box lol.

This is going to be my first time trying foundationless too, so I'm going to use two different kinds of strips, small cell wax, and thin surplus wax. I'm thinking thin surplus wax will be most of it. Small cell starter strip shouldn't have any real impact since they'll be making 90% of them comb themselves at whatever cell size they want but I like experimenting so I'm gonna see just to be sure.

Linda's blog on beekeeping has a video of her installing the strips which has been extremely helpful to many on the web. She seems like a great gal too!

Michael Bush's site would be my next visit for the topic of foundationless!

Musashi

[Michael Bush]

An empty frame does not work. As mentioned, you need a guide of some kind.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

[Musashi]

The other neat things about foundationless to me and why I'm pretty gung about it:

1. No need for an extractor
2. You can't screw it up. The bees are making the choices.
3. If the bees do "screw" it up the odd shaped comb can still be harvested using crush and strain.
4. Crush and strain gives you more pristine wax product to keep, sell in bulk or in candles and the such.
5. No foundation to worry about storage with wax moths
6. Cost savings not buying as much foundation
7. Crush and strain doesn't require an extractor obviously more $$$ saved
8. The natural comb with no foundation is just gorgeous to look at. If it gets travel stains just crush and strain. If it comes out nice, you've got highly desireable comb\chunk honey.
9. Harvesting all the natural wax from the frames avoids the issue of chemicals slowly building up in your reused drawn comb.

The main downside is drawn comb is definately a resource unto itself. You lose that. I'm planning on doing both for now. I'm going to see if I like foundationless enough to where I do only that. So I'm a bit of a traitor to my own cause lol!