Middle Entrance ?

[Musashi]

:sHey all! I'm thinking of converting my hives to "Middle Entrances". I want to have a deep brood box then a medium brood box on top, both with 10 frames, then a queen excluder, and on top of that the entrance for the hive. but how and what would I use for an entrance? I'll sometimes have a propolis trap just below my telescoping cover as well.

Also, I read somewhere that if you have brood boxes with 10 frames but supers with 9 frames that that alone will keep the queen from moving up. Is that true?
:s

[hfrysinger]

9 frames never stopped my queens from moving up.

[Bizzybee]

Excluders haven't slowed production in any that I've used them on and 9 frames hasn't stopped any queens either.

[Musashi]

Okie dokie..two strikes for 9 frame slowing the queens down lol

[dickm]

An upper entrance nd a lower one provide for air circulation. Your system will not, though a 3/4" hole in a super will not hurt and may help. Also, it will stymie the clean up crew that needs to drag out debris. SBBs will clog and be useless. Suggest you visit some before you decide this. There's a reason the older beeks do the things they do.

dickm

[Musashi]

Ahh...really didn't think of bees dragging stuff out. Pretty obvious ommission ..doink! I've seen a description of that though..but maybe it was just an Additional entrance. I am currently using SBB's. I guess I could have my traditional bottom entrance and also adding Imirie shims and see if the reports of getting gummed up are more hassle than the extra entrance hole is worth?

[tecumseh]

I suspect you are mixing two seperate ideas in regards to 9 frames and excluder plus middle entrance.

if you do the math then 9 frames should provide ample space for a queen to lay (this is as long as her per day egg production is approximately normal). I commonly use 9 frames in a box but this is more about the ease of removing a frame (typically from the center of the box) and not rolling the bees.

in the past I have never much used a queen excluder (except in certain part of rearing queens). this is one aspect of beekeeping that will change in the near future due to a test I did this past years which was based upon a study I reviewed in a 'very old' bee magazine. this article encourage me to try and run a reduced brood area with a limited exit on the bottom of the stack, a queen excluder on top of the brood nest and an entrance above the excluder and below the honey supers. my test results conformed to those published in the old bee magazine and altered my way of thinking about a queen excluder being (as my old mentor suggested) a honey excluder. for the middle entrance I use standard building shims (the wood kind) cut in half. I also have a top entrance built into my slightly modified migratory tops.

[Michael Bush]

>I read somewhere that if you have brood boxes with 10 frames but supers with 9 frames that that alone will keep the queen from moving up. Is that true?

IMO, no.

[Musashi]

I suspect you are mixing two seperate ideas in regards to 9 frames and excluder plus middle entrance.

for the middle entrance I use standard building shims (the wood kind) cut in half. I also have a top entrance built into my slightly modified migratory tops.

Yes, I think that's exactly right. I got two concepts crossed in my little pea brain. I'm not sure if I saw the same article you looked at, but somewhere I read an old reference to allowing the bees the ability to skip running through the brood box to get to the supers. How that was precisely accomplished I was not sure.

I am definately going to run propolis traps on all of my hives instead of an inner cover, as inner covers are a massive beetle hazard in FL anyway. So I figure I'll make some side cash from my "inner cover" anyway. The only one I won't use a propolis trap on is the one I put my sundance II pollen trap on (top trap type).

Which means I need somewhere else to let the bees come in. Then I bought some Imirie shims and was giving that some idea. I read some pretty negative stuff about them breaking bee space and the resultant problems, but when I got the shims from Brushy Mountain, it came with a little instruction sheet that was basically talking points on how to use it and it makes complete sense if you use only at certain points when supers are being put on. It did emphasize DRAWN comb as Mr. Bush clearly emphasizes on his website as well. As I don't have any drawn comb and may not have any, using foundationless frames, I think I will still try the Imirie method as I understand it to give the bees extra access when the supers are on to reduce travel stains etc.

Not sure if it will work and would welcome any feedback on this. At this point, I'm going to have one deep and one medium as their brood box, an excluder, shim, then supers.

One thing I can't decide is if I should just cut out a larger hole in the shim. I know it's easier for the bees to defend, but it's pretty narrow with just the one cut out. I suppose I could use another shim as I add supers if I want more access for the bees to use. My note on the shims says during a flow, the bees won't propolize the opening, but I guess I'll have to see that for myself ;-)

[tecumseh]

musashi writes:
'm not sure if I saw the same article you looked at, but somewhere I read an old reference to allowing the bees the ability to skip running through the brood box to get to the supers. How that was precisely accomplished I was not sure.

tecumseh:
the idea is to limit the entrance at the bottom of the stack (I think in the study they blocked off the bottom entrance entirely) where the queen is confined and to provide an entrance above the queen excluder for the field bees. the field bees quickly learn how to come and go without going thru the excluder. in this configuration the field bees don't have to transverse the brood nest (thereby limiting crowding) and they also don't tend to backfill the brood nest (and thereby limit brood rearing space).

shims place above the excluder will give you an approximate 1/4" slot along that side of the box or an imirie chim with a notch (in the same position) should accomplish the same task. if the hive is strong you would expect to get some comb build up in the extra space you created by using the building shims or the imirie shim.

for the pollen traps you will need to plug all entrance besides the pollen trap entrance itself.

[Joseph Clemens]

:sHey all! I'm thinking of converting my hives to "Middle Entrances". I want to have a deep brood box then a medium brood box on top, both with 10 frames, then a queen excluder, and on top of that the entrance for the hive. but how and what would I use for an entrance? I'll sometimes have a propolis trap just below my telescoping cover as well.

Also, I read somewhere that if you have brood boxes with 10 frames but supers with 9 frames that that alone will keep the queen from moving up. Is that true?
:s

Perhaps you were thinking of some earlier posts of mine:

hp=332284&postcount=5 (http://beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332284&postcount=5)

I tried what I described in my earlier posts and had some amazing results. I am continuing to use these colony configurations to see where it gets me.

[Musashi]

Perhaps you were thinking of some earlier posts of mine:

hp=332284&postcount=5 (http://beesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=332284&postcount=5)

I tried what I described in my earlier posts and had some amazing results. I am continuing to use these colony configurations to see where it gets me.

Thank you Mr. Clemens,

Those were exactly the threads I saw. Sorry I didn't recall the author. When I first saw them I wasn't exactly sure what you were doing with your bottom board, but now I see you use a SBB. That still doesn't seem to address bees moving stuff out of the hive? Do they just move dead bees and what not to the upstairs entrance?

I've decided the main problem to not having a bottom entrance, is the best method I've decided for the horrendous SHB problem we have here in Sunny Florida, is the West Beatle trap. I have some AJ's beetle eaters, but frankly can't figure them out without a video or something lol. So it seems to me at this point that the best compromise would be to use Imirie's idea as outlined in the handout I received. I'd have a normal bottom entrance with SBB, two brood boxes, queen exluder and then use the Imirie shims as I add supers. Still that one little hole seems awfully small for the foragers to use, but I'm sure I'll get a quick lesson in that once I use them.

?

[RayMarler]

A way that I've tried and seems to work well...

Deep brood box on bottom with bottom sbb with entrance.

Next comes an all metal Qxcluder with 3/4 x 3/4 boards stapled to the top of the excluder on sides and back only.

On top of the excluder is the supers.

This gives an entrance above the broodnest and excluder as well as an entrance on the bottom. The main field force bees use the entrance above the queen excluder. Seems to help with honey storage above the broodnest into the supers without so much bee traffic in the broodnest, and gives lots of airflow to the broodnest for ventilation. We can have some pretty hot weather here in the summers.

I've also used this design for cell building above the broodnest of a queenright hive. I put a migratory cover under the excluder for a day and a half to get cells started, then remove the migratory cover and the cells get built out well.

[tecumseh]

putz writes:
I've also used this design for cell building above the broodnest of a queenright hive. I put a migratory cover under the excluder for a day and a half to get cells started, then remove the migratory cover and the cells get built out well.

tecumeh:
I think the first mention of this technique was in an only bee magazine and was described by sue colby. the idea was one she picked up while visiting new zealand and she attributed this to a mr harry cloake. part of the idea was the cell builder was also the cell finisher. you could use a double screen in the same place that putz describes using a migratory cover (or a cloake board as descibed in the article).

[Musashi]

Next comes an all metal Qxcluder with 3/4 x 3/4 boards stapled to the top of the excluder on sides and back only.


This gives an entrance above the broodnest and excluder as well as an entrance on the bottom.



Putz, if I were to emulate that I am prepared equipment wise to do so as I have the metal only excluders. I had considered using the Imirie shims just without the front piece which is basically the same thing, above the excluder. My main concern there would be the bees having to defend two entrances that large. But then my Imirie small slot concern was having that hole propolized. The handout I have claims you're using the shims only during nectar flows so the bees are too busy doing their thing and consequently find the upper shim entrance useful as an entrance.

The main arguement against the Imirie shim was the sometimes reported propolizing of the space created by the shim just above the excluder. One thread stated the extra space was in itself a queen excluder as the queen wouldn't move un unless some comb bridging had been built. I still think the excluder is more necessary "just in case" esp as I'll be using primarily foundationless frames so I'm shooting for comb/chunk honey as much as possible, and can ill afford the queen laying up there.

Would the entire side opened above the queen excluder give the bees too much to defend?

[AR Beekeeper]

I have used 3/4 wide X 3/8 deep strips glued to the top of metal excluders with construction adhesive for years with no robbing problems. I do close the bottom entrance to a 5 in. opening.

I put my excluders on when the main flow begins and remove them when the flow ends ( end of June ). I have had no problems with brace comb from the top of the excluder to the bottom bar of the frames above. Because the bees are using the area as an entrance they seem to keep this space open.

[RayMarler]

Musashi...

I only use this setup on strong hives, hives that are 2 deeps with plenty of bees to defend the combs. I also use it during the spring to early summer here when the robbing has not started. In this area where I'm at, I won't use this method past the end of july on most years, as robbing is pretty determined in middle August thru middle October or so.

[RayMarler]

Musashi...
Another thing, you need the excluder, the space of the shims by themselves will not stop the queen from moving up if she and the workers decide to move or expand the brood up above.

Also, I've not had any issues with excessive burr comb or propolis buildup using this method. I do close off the bottom entrance to about 5 or 6 inches.

[RayMarler]

Musashi...
Here I am again!
If you are going for comb honey, I highly recommend you read A Year's Work In An Out-Apiary by Doolittle. It can be found at http://www.wicwas.com. It will give a very good description of comb and box management for getting maximum comb honey production as Doolittle did it, and may give you some insights for consideration.

[RayMarler]

tecumeh:
I think the first mention of this technique was in an only bee magazine and was described by sue colby. the idea was one she picked up while visiting new zealand and she attributed this to a mr harry cloake. part of the idea was the cell builder was also the cell finisher. you could use a double screen in the same place that putz describes using a migratory cover (or a cloake board as descibed in the article).

Putz reply...
I don't remember where I first heard of this setup, but it definately was not from Sue although I'm not surprised if she has mentioned it. The oldest literature I've seen with something resembling this setup but no where near exactly like this, is from Scientific Queen Rearing as Practically Applied, by G. M. Doolittle. He raised queen cells and also had virgin queens mate in the tops of queen rite hives, and this book was originally published in 1889.

Ray Marler (Putz)

[tecumseh]

putz writes:
He raised queen cells and also had virgin queens mate in the tops of queen rite hives, and this book was originally published in 1889.

tecumseh replies:
the 'colby' article I read was dated 1979. the technique (which is somewhat but not excessively elaborate) she attributed to harry cloake in the article... which 'I think' she suggest was the first time she had seen queens raised in that manner.

[Musashi]

Putz,

Thanks for the book recommendation. I'm going to order it. Also all very good points. Other than the size of the opening, Imirie's system with shims under each super as you add supers seems similar. It also says remove the shims as you remove the supers. No doubt if you're putting on supers then there is a flow which means they won't gum up the entrance.

As I'm in serious experimental mode, what I'm going to try to do, is put foundationless frames on early on for the first flow and see how the bees react. Later in the summer, I'll change to foundation frames of various types so that I'll have some drawn comb to use as well. This combo method might be folly and later I'll decide to go one way or the other. Storing drawn comb will be a big hassle compared to just going foundationless and I really don't want to have to use any chemicals to store the frames but I would have little choice not to. Still as I'm just trying all sorts of combination at first, helped along by our long warm weather to afford this luxury.