foudation question from the new guy

[VanBeek in MI]

I feel like a kid in a candy store with a thousand dicisions to make.
I need to know what foundation you use, plastic or wax.
I'm having trouble making up my mind, i would think that wax would be better in some cases but plastic in others.
I saw a guys hives last summer and he used wax, and a lot of them had some warp in them.
I'm leaning towards plastic but am unsure, I want to make it right the first time with as little regrets as possible so let me know what your opinion is.

Thanks so much and may God bless you and yours during the holidays

Jim

[iddee]

Wax is best for the bees.
Plastic is best for the beek.
Which do you want to make work for?

[blueskybeesupply]

I recommend plastic for the beginner. I think when you are getting started, there are enough things that can get you worked up, being unsure of what you are doing. Wax requires extra frame assembly, cross wiring and embedding. With the plastic sheets you simply snap in. No stress.

We have started hives side by side with plastic and wax. There is a modest difference in the bees ability to draw out the wax faster. However, if you brush a little extra wax on the edges of the plastic cells--the bees will draw out just as well. Also, anytime you have undrawn brood frames, you will most likely be feeding them to help them convert wax faster.

We also HIGHLY recommend BLACK PIERCO for your brood, as it will help you to better identify the small eggs. Also, when you get to the point where you add honey supers--do not put the queen excluder on first. You need to let the queen lay just a tad in the super, otherwise the bees will not cross the excluder to build. As the brood will attract the bees to the frames, put the queen below, then place your excluder on. As the brood hatches in the super, the cells will be filled with nectar and the foundation will continue to be drawn out.

In the long run, wax is the better (IMO). However, I would wait to try it in your next hive as you become more comfortable.

[brooksbeefarm]

Jim, your going to open a can of worms:no:.I have both but I like the wax better.The bees will go to work and draw it out quicker.I have some hives that swarmed before they would draw out plastic wax coated foundation and others that went right to work on it? The pastic foundation is easier and quicker to install than the wax foundation but I have less problems with it.:thumbsup:.Good luck Jack

[Chef Isaac]

The only problem, Jamie, is that there is not a fat way of applying the way to the plastic foundation. It is a great method for people hwo have a couple of hives but if you have a lot of hives, it is tough.

[Ravenseye]

There is no "best" way....but I only use wax. I don't like plastic anything.

[blueskybeesupply]

The only problem, Jamie, is that there is not a fat way of applying the way to the plastic foundation. It is a great method for people hwo have a couple of hives but if you have a lot of hives, it is tough.

Isaac, I agree. We don't actually add wax to our plastic foundation ourselves. We only use Pierco and they seem to have more wax on them than other coated plastic sheets. Time is a real issue. My friend, Roy Hendrickson, wrote an article in Bee Culture over a year ago about improving success with plastic and he used a foam brush to apply melted wax. He is retired and downsizing his operation, so he has a little more time now. Some just washboard the wax on from a block.

[RayMarler]

Plastic is better for extracting honey. No wiring and stronger so won't crack or damage during extracting honey. Bees draw them out fine, but do draw wax faster.

Wax is good if you want to cut queen cells out of them for transfer to other nucs for raising queens. Can't really cut cells out of plastic foundation comb. It's ultimately the choice of the beek.

Using no foundation and letting the bees draw all natural comb has similar advantages to wax foundation, except they are even weaker for doing extraction of honey but are great for doing comb honey.

[berkshire bee]

I prefer wax, especially if your just starting. Assembling hive bodies, nailing frames together and installing the wax foundation is part of the whole beekeeing experience. How can you beat a cozy winter day with the smell of pine frames and sweeeeeet beeswax?

[Broke-T]

I like black Pierco foundation for brood boxes. Am also using black Plasticell from Dadant. All are wax coated but the coating is not uniform on either type. Plan on going to uncoated Plasticell and coating with my own wax next time.

I have had good luck with plasic except for duragilt. Stay away from it.

Johnny

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hallo Van Beek,
lass die Bienen machen was sie wollen, ihr eigener Wachs ist für sie immer noch das Beste, sie danken es dir.:thumbsup:

Hello Van Beek, let the bees do what they want, their own wax is still the best; they thank you. Gruss, Hoschy

[Musashi]

I was installing deep brood small cell long hook wired wax foundation last night. I do find it fun so I don't mind the work at all. Of course it would have helped if I didn't order long hook when I only use groove top and bottom frames. Doink! Had to snip off all the hooks.

I'm foundation hybrid at the moment til I commit to one or the other. In my deeps I have some plastic, some small cell wax, some duragilt, and I'm contemplating no foundation, but in a deep would have to wire it up anyway.

Basically for their "living quarters" I'm going to settle one something at some point, but want to keep experimenting to see which I really like. At any rate, the brood box frames aren't going to be going anywhere anytime soon, so strength or uniformity or both are much more important than in the supers. That division of importance between brood box (only run one deep in Sunny FL), and super is because I am going to run primarily no foundation in the supers to focus on comb/chunk honey in some shallows. I still love the idea of all medium boxes for interchangeability, but at this point, I'm going with all three basic sizes as once a big flow is over, I'll put on the medium supers to have some drawn comb for future uses/extraction possibly.

So, like everything in beek world, choice of foundation affects a lot of things. For me the largest comfort was to decide to go foundationless for most of my supers. That simplified everything and produces that pristine product that is so easy to be proud of. ;-)

[Baloo]

To further complicate things... I would use small cell foundation, and then go foundationless as soon as possible. It is not hard and it will save you money and make healthier bees. Foundation wax has pesticide and miticide residues in it. You could get by with regular foundation if you have already ordered it, but I believe it is best to let the bees decide their comb structure. Do some searches on it. There are a lot of people who have great ideas that work well. Sorry if I made things worse.

[ScadsOBees]

Hi
I'm not too far from you either! Welcome! I have a Van in my last name too :) We can get togather sometime if you want to. send me a private message if you want to talk.

I use all the methods, but prefer plastic. However....

Plastic is a bit harder to manage. But once it is drawn out, you are pretty much all set. The frames will probably break before the foundation will.

The bees prefer wax foundation. However, once the comb is done, its done. For deeps you almost need wires in it, and that is a bit of a pain replacing foundation. I have a little problem with warp too, but that can be managed.

If you start out with brand new hives and all plastic, the bees should draw everything out just fine with plastic, although probably a little slower than foundation.

You can also go foundationless as mentioned previously. Not my preference either, there are some things that have to be managed there too.

It mostly comes down to personal preference, how you want to handle you hives. For me it comes down to cost (once again referencing the "Van" in my last name :D), plastic is just as cheap and cheaper in the long run.

You are going to get all kinds of opinions here (including mine) and you'll have to decide which way is best for you.

Rick

[Michael Bush]

I care about cell size, so that limits my choices a bit. The Mann Lake PF120's (mediums) I use a lot. They are 4.95mm cell size. They are also available in PF100s (deeps). But my favorite is no foundation.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm