Imidacloprid..aka:Merit

[No_Bivy]

Folks are trying to save Hemlocks in this area from the Hemlock Wooly Adelgid. Most are using Merit or Safari to treat trees by using a soil drench. The chemical becomes systemic......My question. I have heard this is playing a role in the decline of the Honey Bee. Is this true? Seems like almost all agricultural pesticides have Imidacloprid in them.....

[Dave Burrup]

This chemical is used in many formulations. It is labeled for use on most of the food we eat and is used very commmonly in the horticulture industry.

[No_Bivy]

so...negative effedt on bees? I hear it can disorient a bee if they feed from that trees flower.

[btr568]

Might be,Germany and France ban it's use,or at least the active ingrednets

[Bodo]

Folks are trying to save Hemlocks in this area from the Hemlock Wooly Adelgid. Most are using Merit or Safari to treat trees by using a soil drench. The chemical becomes systemic......My question. I have heard this is playing a role in the decline of the Honey Bee. Is this true? Seems like almost all agricultural pesticides have Imidacloprid in them.....

My advice: Do your own research. Use peer reviewed articles and stay away from 'questionable' sources.

[walking bird]

A good place to start your research is with Michael Schacker's new book, "A Spring Without Bees." It makes a pretty good case for IMD's possible role in CCD and bee survival in general.

[Constance]

Hi all,

concerning Imidacloprid bans in europe:
- France has a +/- total ban for neonicotinoids, the group of chemicals to which Imidacloprid and Clothianidin belong.
- Italy and few other EU countries started a +/- total recline of the accreditation of these chemicals in 2008
- Germany did NOT yet ban Imidacloprid. There's only a temporary recline of accreditation for Clothianidin-containing corn seed stains. It is still in use for other crops although german beekeepers are actively fighting this after the death or severe damage of several thousand colonies this spring.

the problems of neonicotinoids and bees are well known to the scientific community since 2004 at least (first conference reports are dating around 2001). Muscle tremor and death of many young bees is the most obvious, although rather late, sign of contamination. Delayed brood hatching and higher Varroa counts is one of the earlier ones.

If you're german-reading, http://www.berufsimker.de has a well compiled presentation on the history of scientific meetings on neonicotinoids in Europe and how this knowledge was kept back from beekeepers over years.
Else do a quick internet search on imidacloprid and bees and you get pretty many english pages on the french story.

Be warned, there is several additional neonicotinoids coming on the market soon. The risk of yet another CCD is high.

Greetings from lake constance

[tecumseh]

thanks for the link constance. please do keep us updated on what transpires on your side of the pond.

perhaps I can get mizz tecumseh to provide a translation.

[Constance]

Sorry,

I'd have liked to provide a translation myself but are too busy these days :-).
The direkt link to the document is
http://neu.berufsimker.de/files/Italien-Chrono.pdf

It basically cites papers by european scientists throughout several years. Another section is on pneumatic corn sowing machines. This is because german goverment and departments always told that the only problem would be the inappropriate sowing technology and a low quality seed incrustation with the insecticide. However, this is definitely just half the story

Constance

[Durandal]

I do know that there is Merit being prescribed to deal with Emerald Ash Borer here in Hamilton County and the rest of the effected Ohio Counties. Its being sold as a year application and is fairly expensive.

The problem around here is that roughly 12% of our trees in Hamilton County (Ohio) are Ash. Other than a quarantine and a county and city plan for using tax payer owned Ash for building material for schools and "green" structures, nothing has been organized. Most are probably going to die as in Michigan, which, if it happens over the next 20 to 25 years is not that big of a deal to me.

I am hoping that the use of Merit is less because of the cost, especially now. It ranges from 150 to 300.00 per treatment per tree.

That said, I have a 300 acre farm and my bees are smack dab in the middle of it. I have been experimenting with some organic labeled sprays for grapes (organic is by no means bee safe by any measure) and 160 of those acres are all planted with GMO corn or soybean. The corn has a Imidacloprid treatment to protect it in seed format.

I have yet to have a problem with my bees and the local feral (for lack of a better term) are fairly large.

I am torn on the whole thing mainly because, as a farmer I understand the benefit of these products but I think willy nilly use of them is simply asking for trouble. I have yet to see a scientific study that conclusively shows/proves/whatever that the neonics are the problems, nor do I see chemical or CCD problems around me or in the State of Ohio (could be wrong there and missed something) which is BIG corn and soybean state. I'll be more than happy to read any variety of material (especially now that we are slowing down on the farm for the year).

[Constance]

Thanks Durandal,

Yes, of course, there's been fields with Clothianidin (similar to Imidacloprid) treated corn which didn't cause trouble to bees in Europe as well.

I should have stated that this year's seed was incrusted with a especially high dose and that whether was extraordinary dry during sowing.

Nevertheless,
1. many neonicotinoids enrich over years (they have long half-life)
2. neonicotinoids (Imidacloprid, Clothianidin and many others) are going to interact
3. sublethal effects are not necessarily visible. For example, prolonged worker brood time is normally not recognized by "normal" beekeeping. Similarly slightly increased larval death is not necessarily visible to the beekeeper but causes damage, e.g. in honey crop. These things are scientifically shown both in europe and North America.
4. neonicotinoids at low dose are even in use as mite control chemicals (Amitraz).

Ash borers have been imported to europe as well. However, IIRC no treatment is applied so far although a significant portion is dying. I do think that this is becoming a real problem for some woods over here.

Kind regards

Constance

[Laurence Hope]

The nursery here locally recommended some imidocloprid based ground drench to get rid of the fuzzy white moths (I can't think of the name right now) that get on my Fuji apple trees. Of course, they told me that then I couldn't safely eat the apples. I sprayed them with the Bt I got from Sundance. Worked like a charm. And, I am enjoying my apples. I also used it to spray for the caterpillar of a butterfly that was destroying our passionfruit vines. It worked there also. I really liked the abundance of frittilary butterflies while the plant destruction was going on, but I like the vines also. This spring, I plan to plant a few passionfruit vines in another part of the yard so the frittilary butterflies may have all they want and to provide their beauty to our yard. Motto: One for the birds, one for the bugs, and one for me.

[No_Bivy]

does Safari work on EAB?....Interesting info here yall'. Maybe tree guys and bee guys need to swap notes

[Bud Dingler]

references little peer reviewed science. its mostly opinion backed up with news articles of more speculation.

to a scientist, university researcher or professor this particular book and also Dr. Joe Cummins

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/requiemForTheHoneybee.php

writings and opinions on neonictinoids are mostly hype and poorly referenced. neither of these people have actually done any research on honeybees or honeybees and neonictinoids. instead they have used non published science articles as citations and make it out like this is some serious research and new conclusion.

real research performed by published scientists does not show any direct connections between neonictinoids and bee losses. some new studies are due out in 2009.

also a poster claims that Amitraz is a neonictinoid is just plain wrong.
Amitraz is from a class of chemicals called "amadine"

[tecumseh]

constance writes:
3. sublethal effects are not necessarily visible. For example, prolonged worker brood time is normally not recognized by "normal" beekeeping.

tecumseh:
a similar 'problem' in the bee world is the effect of nosema (a disease casually associated with ccd) in that at my location the net results of nosema is a hive that does poorly and likely produces little... but for the bee keeper there is not an obvious clue that the problem is nosema. a bit further north this disease is quite evident and the beekeeper can recognize the problem and KNOW how not only to 'field test' for the problem but commonly and routinely intervenes to counter nosema.

secondly... you might suspect if the time required for brood development is extended far enough that the net effect would be increased problems with varroa. at least that is what I would suspect.

[walking bird]

I would agree with Bud Dingler that "A Spring Without Bees" is definitely flawed. I wouldn't consider it the final word; just more info, viewed (as with anything) with a critical eye.

In fact, I noticed towards the end of the book the author lists "Buckeye" trees as being very attractive to bees. Maybe they are--- but they're also poisonous to bees, aren't they?