Making a split, interested in foundationless

[Omaejel]

I currently have two hives. One is from a package that I purchased from a local beekeeper and the other is from a swarm I picked up earlier this year. They are both currently in 2 deeps each with fully drawn comb. I am planning to make a spilt in the spring and would like some advice.

I am interested in going foundationless for a few reasons. I have read that bees have different cell sizes for different parts of the hive and I figure what better way than let them build it the way they want to. I also figure I will save a little money by not buying the foundation. Plus I am not going to be treating my hives with anything other than powdered sugar. I don't use pesticides in my house and will not be using them in my hives. I figure if there is a chance that the bees will be better off building the cell size that they want, why not give them the chance to. I figure worse case scenario is they do not draw out comb straight and I have to manage them a little more until they get it drawn out straight.

Here are my questions:

I build my own woodenware from scratch. Can I just build the same frames that I am building now and just make the solid top bar a v shape on the bottom instead of cutting the piece out for the hooks for foundation? Will they be more likely to build straight comb on the edge if I run some beeswax on it?

When I make the split should I just divide each hive in half so each one has roughly half of the honey/brood/bees or should I just take out 3 frames and make a nuc? Or should I take out 5 frames with brood/bees/honey and put them in their own single deep with 5 other foundationless frames then just replace the ones I took out with 5 foundationless frames?

How should I place the foundationless frames in these hives after the spilt? I did read that you shouldn't just put a box of empty frames on top of a full box because they do not like that very much.

I welcome any ideas or comments. I appreciate any advice. I would love to hear some reasons not to go foundationless.

[KQ6AR]

Are you planning to do this in a langstron setup or, topbar?
I know topbar hive sides are sloped in to prevent comb attachment.

I'm curious if you could do it in langstrom with 4 sided frames, & wedge topbars.

[Joseph Clemens]

The "Father of the modern moveable-frame beehive" was
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._L._Langstroth. :D

[Omaejel]

I am planning this in a standard Langstroth hive. The bees can attach the comb to the sides of the frames and it's easier to remove. I think this will provide me with the best of both worlds.

bushfarms.com has some information on this type of setup. I think this is where I initially got the idea.

[Michael Bush]

>I build my own woodenware from scratch. Can I just build the same frames that I am building now and just make the solid top bar a v shape on the bottom instead of cutting the piece out for the hooks for foundation?

Yes you can. I prefer to make them a bit narrower as long as you're doing it:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm

> Will they be more likely to build straight comb on the edge if I run some beeswax on it?

In my experience, it makes no difference as far as them following it, but they make a better attachment if you don't put the beeswax on.

>When I make the split should I just divide each hive in half so each one has roughly half of the honey/brood/bees or should I just take out 3 frames and make a nuc? Or should I take out 5 frames with brood/bees/honey and put them in their own single deep with 5 other foundationless frames then just replace the ones I took out with 5 foundationless frames?

There are many ways to end up with a split. You just need to decide what your intent is and follow a plan:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

>How should I place the foundationless frames in these hives after the spilt? I did read that you shouldn't just put a box of empty frames on top of a full box because they do not like that very much.

They like it fine. In nature, of course, they build down, (they have to) and not up (contrary to popular belief), so if you do put them on top I would put a drawn comb in the middle of the box for a ladder so they will climb up and then work down. Otherwise put the box of foundationless underneath.

I think you'll have the best luck feeding them into the brood nest between two drawn brood combs when you can. But a box full as you move up is fine too, preferably with a drawn comb in them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#historicreferences

[Omaejel]

Thanks for the help.

I am sure I will be back here again with more questions.

I decided to start beekeeping as a secondary to making mead. I figured it would be cheaper not to have to buy honey. Then I decided beekeeping was so much fun that meadmaking would become the secondary! :D

[wayacoyote]

Incidentally, (well it always comes up in these discussions), you CAN prewire the frames if you like and the bees will simply build down around them. Make sure your hive is level, at least side-to-side, as they build DOWN, not necessarily centered in the frame if you hive leans a bit.

also, I do this myself, and just be aware that they sometimes don't attach the comb to the bottom bar. That makes extraction a bit trickier. Just be gentle with the speed.

[Omaejel]

Having the hive level does make sense. I will be sure to check them and level if need be. I hadn't thought of that. I bet they could make a mess in an empty box if they took a mind to.

[Musashi]

>
In my experience, it makes no difference as far as them following it, but they make a better attachment if you don't put the beeswax on.



Mr Bush. Could you clarify that. What are you using for a starter strip then if not a beeswax strip. I've been trying to determine what the best starter strip would be. I was thinking I'd use thin surplus, and then just harvest the whole frame as comb or crush and strain depending on the quality. Are you saying that the beeswax foundation strip doesn't offer a sufficient handhold for the bees to base the frames comb on? Should I use wax coated plastic foundation then? I've read about using a wooden strip, maybe on your website but then I'd have to go find wooden strips ...arrggh.. lol

Help! ;)

[Michael Bush]

>Mr Bush. Could you clarify that. What are you using for a starter strip then if not a beeswax strip.

Typically I cut a bevel on the top bar or add one. But you can turn the wedge sideways and nail it back on, put in popscicle sticks or split paint sticks, or even use wax starter strips. What I do depends on what I have. If I have a new unassembled grooved (or bettter, ungrooved) top bar I cut a bevel. If I have a wedge top I break off the wedge and nail it in turned 90 degrees. If I have an old groove top I put a strip of wood in. If I have an old frame with comb in it, I cut the comb out and leave a row of cells all the way around. If I need the frame in the middle of drawn brood comb, I put anything in with no comb guide at all sometimes. They all work.

> I've been trying to determine what the best starter strip would be. I was thinking I'd use thin surplus, and then just harvest the whole frame as comb or crush and strain depending on the quality. Are you saying that the beeswax foundation strip doesn't offer a sufficient handhold for the bees to base the frames comb on?

A beeswax strip works fine. A wood strip is more permanent. I'm saying I don't wax the wood strips.

>Should I use wax coated plastic foundation then?

If you get the right cell size (like PF120 or PF100 from Mann Lake) it can work.

> I've read about using a wooden strip, maybe on your website but then I'd have to go find wooden strips ...arrggh.. lol

If you have a wedge frame, you already have a strip...

[yoyo]

I have tried using popcicle sticks and they work just fine. I did not wax them or do anything besides using a dab of glue to hold them in place. I have heard of someone using nylon fishing string to pre-wire the frames, but I have not tried it. I hate the wire as it's hard on the fingers. Has anyone tried fishing line?

[Musashi]

No wonder I was a bit perlexed. I have ONLY groove top and bottom frames.

I'll try some popcicle sticks on a test basis, but mainly I think I'll still use the thin surplus foundation using melted wax to hold it in there. Popcicle sticks glued in would sure be quicker construction. I would imagine tongue depressors would work in a similar fashion?

[Michael Bush]

If you go to a craft store they are called "craft sticks". Cheaper than tongue depressors but the same thing.

[Musashi]

If you go to a craft store they are called "craft sticks". Cheaper than tongue depressors but the same thing.

That's a "crafty" solution sir, thank you!