Bees won't buzz in Hollidaysburg

[dug_6238]

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news?cid=44161

What a shame. It's sad to see this happen.

[Swobee]

That is a shame, so many communities encourage bee keeping, within reasonable limits. Some set a maximum number of hives allowed on any property, require fencing, etc.

It was two years before any of my neighbors knew there was a hive in our yard. Not one negative comment (so far). One thought it was a 'good thing' an commented that her garden seemed to be doing better and she now feels it was not her skills but the bees to thank. I've had requests from people to place hives in their back yards. Not sure if I want to take that step or not, but we're considering it. No local ordinances exist to directly deal with the issue. One or two may have a little "gray wording" that could be stretched into outlawing hives, but the city zoning and code enforcement office has no opinion at this time.

[Bizzybee]

The only reason the 3 bees would have had to sting the dog (alleged) would be if the dog snapped at the bees. I would open charges against the dog for attacking my bees.

Ignorance can only be squashed with ignorance! :)

I love that comment about their bees getting loose and encroaching on their property. Bet they wish they had put up that electric fence to keep those unruly bees in their hive now!! :doh: :D

[Ravenseye]

This is a good example of how we can get so shortsighted about things. The other day one of the folks that work for us had to run home but her car was in the shop. She asked to borrow her co-workers but then found that she couldn't drive it because the car was a stick shift and she never learned how to drive one. Her frustrated comment was: "I wish they would ban standard transmissions. What if it were a real emergency and I couldn't get home? What are people supposed to do?" Maybe it's a poor example, but it seems that so many people who are against backyard beekeeping never look past their own lack of understanding. In fact, they never even want to look past their own ignorance (ignorance as in lack of knowledge, not stupidity). Often, they think about their own world and how they interact with it and then apply that to everyone else. Just like the standard transmission complaint.

One thing to be said though, which is that all of the above can go both ways. Having a solid understanding of the value that bees bring to our lives doesn't grant a license to concern your neighbor. In our small world, we often push our living spaces together. Compromise, when worked at, can create rich social environments for everyone. Trouble is, we start at confrontation which seldom opens the door for compromise. Discussion about compromise also introduces knowledge, which creates understanding. A judge cannot decree understanding and seldom introduces knowledge. In the end, it's just a shame.

[Michael Bush]

I was working some hives in town when the neighbor came over, closer than I would want to be to an open hive with no protective equipment on, and asked me what I was going to do if the bees "got out". I said I didn't understand the question. She repeated it. I said they were out already. There was nothing keeping them anywhere except their own inclinations to live in the hive. I'm still wondering what she meant.

[No_Bivy]

I bet that dog got stung by yellow jackets......not honey bees

[Baloo]

That is really sad. I am just glad I have good neighbors. It seems like if the neighbors would have spoken with the beekeepers that they could have reached some conclusion. It's bad when people just call the cops because they are to shy (or lazy) to speak with their neighbor.

[Eaglerock]

I talked to one of his cousins in town and I left a message on his machine. Told him all we support him.

[Fred Bee]

This is a sad story and shows the ignorance of Holidaysburg officials. How about getting the assistance and support of the county agriculture agent for this county? Is there a local beekeeping organization or can someone from EAS or a related organization be of assistance to this beekeeper and also in educating the city officials regarding the interpretation of this ordinance?

"The ordinance says no home can have an infestation of insects, vermin, rodents, or other pests."

Would the county agriculture department consider beekeepers to be promoting "infestation"(s) of "pests?" How would the county ag agent interpret this ordinance? Something is way wrong with this folks. Wish some organization could come along side of this beekeeper and give him some local support. Geez!

[Bizzybee]

Everybody on Beesource goes up and pickets the courthouse!!!

Need a good excuse to get up to PA and go see the Powernapper anyhow!! ;) :) :sleep:

[dug_6238]

This is a sad story and shows the ignorance of Holidaysburg officials. How about getting the assistance and support of the county agriculture agent for this county? Is there a local beekeeping organization or can someone from EAS or a related organization be of assistance to this beekeeper and also in educating the city officials regarding the interpretation of this ordinance?

I agree. We first need to see if Mr. Nales will go ahead and appeal this further. Whatever his decision, we will stand behind him.

I wish the Ag Agent had some authority, but I don't think that they have any. I could be wrong, but I think that they are not really able to do anything more in this case than disperse information.

I think that a lot of supporters in our area would love to 'educate' them, but it sounds like they're already pretty confident in their understanding of how things work in their eyes...

I'm pretty sure that at the borough meetings, no 'non-residents' were allowed to speak or address the borough council. Mr. Nales and his son gave a pretty good presentation at some borough meetings as well as when testimony was given to the judge. Our organization's president said that Mr. Nales presentation was actually quite good, and I'm sure his presentation skills as a school-teacher aided him in delivering a very informative speech - it sounds like the deck may have been stacked against him though. Success was probably as likely as trying to talk the Board of Directors at Exxon into giving a donation for research into solar-powered-car development.




"The ordinance says no home can have an infestation of insects, vermin, rodents, or other pests."

I know - I think everyone is a little confused on how this can be applied, and I think we're all a little more confused on how this even made it past a judge. It really makes you think when you see local laws being interpreted in such a way as to (ok, I think I'd better watch my words here...). It's actually kind of scary...



Would the county agriculture department consider beekeepers to be promoting "infestation"(s) of "pests?" How would the county ag agent interpret this ordinance? Something is way wrong with this folks. Wish some organization could come along side of this beekeeper and give him some local support. Geez!

Agreed, but Mr. Nales fate really rests with the local government. Our local bee organization has pledged their support, and our president has even testified on Mr. Nales behalf. Our state bee organizaton has been involved as well, and has provided "subject matter experts", but this really depends on the open-mindedness of the local government.



I talked to one of his cousins in town and I left a message on his machine. Told him all we support him.

I'm sure Mr. Nales appreciates that. Our hope is that whatever decision he makes in whether he will appeal or not, he receives plenty of support. We need to stand together on this one.


Everybody on Beesource goes up and pickets the courthouse!!!



:applause:


If I come across more info, I'll post it. We do need to give our support - 1) for Mr. Nales because what he was doing was well intentioned and within the law, and 2) because all of these little towns that outlaw beekeeping will establish a trend that will have long-lasting effects on our abilities to keep bees in or around towns in the future.

[Fred Bee]

...all of these little towns that outlaw beekeeping will establish a trend that will have long-lasting effects on our abilities to keep bees in or around towns in the future.

Dug...
Thanks to you and your organization for showing some support in this matter. I think many of us worry that if more and more local ordinances get passed that sooner or later the problem will be on our door step as well. God bless and good luck to all involved!
Fred Bee

[Shadetree]

I don't usually have much time to read the forums, but this was brought to my attention. I am the president of the 2 Cs and a Bee Beekeepers Assoc. to which Mr. Nale belongs. I thank you each for your support and would like to let you know what has transpired up to this point. Mr. Nale and his sons came to our beginner beekeeping classes and multiple meetings prior to actually getting bees. He was advised to check local ordinances and zoning before hand. This he did and has a sworn statement from the borough manager at the time to that effect. This person is now a county commisioner. He had the bees on the property for about three years with no apparent complaints. He maintained a water source right by the bees and surrounded the bees with shrubbery making the bees fly up out of the line of travel of anyone close by. His bees were well maintained.
This July he was approached by the local codes enforcement officer saying there was a complaint and he was going to have to move his bees out of the borough. He tried to reason with them but it did not work. They offered him an alternate location outside the borough which he refused, as he felt there was no reason he should have to move them.
At this time they issued a citation under a property maintainence code.
607. Infestation, Prevention and Correction
1. Grounds, buildings and structures shall be maintained free of insect, vermin and rodent harborage and infestation.
The proposed fine at the time was $1000 a day and/or 30 days in jail for each day he was in noncompliance. That evening, Mr. Nale and his son, along with myself and eight other beekeepers went to the local borough council meeting. We presented a packet of informational material to each council member on the value of honeybees and various other educational handouts on beekeeping. Mr Nale and his sone addressed the council and ask them to consider this. They would not let me speak on behalf of Mr. Nale or beekeeping as I was not a resident of the borough. After the meeting we met with the council president and a few of the other council members privately. Many phone calls and private meetings were held, though they seemed sympathetic, the matter proceeded. We went to the next meeting and tried to get them to listen to reason but to no avail. They decided to turn the matter over to the magistrate.
After the hearing date and location was changed three times the hearing was held on the 20th of November at 3PM. The county commisioner who was to speak for Mr. Nale had a death in the family and could not show up and they would not accept her written statement into evidence. Dennis VanEngeldorp , Acting Chief Apiarist for the state of Pennslyvania was to attend but was involed in a car accident and could not attend. I did attend and attempted to testify in his behalf but was severely limited as to what I could get in by the format of a hearing. The magistrate made his ruling based on the definitions of the wording of the ordinance. He looked up infestation and it can be read as ,"presence". and harborage can be read as "providing a safe place of refuge". Both of which we can not deny, the bees are present and are provided a safe place of refuge. He fined Mr. Nale $50 and he must adhere to the order. He also advised him on his right to appeal. This is where it stands as of now. I am waiting on Mr. Nale to make a decision on how he wishes to proceed, He is the only beekeeper we have who has bees in that borough. I realize this is not fair or reasonable. But we must deal with reality as it presents itself. We are not done here, just trying to work within the system. We have been offered whatever help they can provide by the Pa State Beekeepers Assoc., Maryann Frazier from Penn State, Dennis Van Engeldorp, and many others. Thank you for your support.

[phil c]

before I kept bees I was an animal control officer in Cedar Rapids IA. The city had and still has an ordinance banning hives within city limits. Their excuse is allergic reaction to stings.
On several occaisions I had to tell people that they had 24 hrs. to move their hives out of town or they would be confiscated. we never had to confiscate a hive,good thing due to the fact that the department had no protective equipment.
I hated it because I had an interest in beekeeping, and understood that the bees were posing no threat to anything.
Interestingly the the guy that we called to deal with swarms kept a few hives in his backyard. with no complaints.
the ordinance was only enforced on a complaint basis.I had one bee call in a neighborhood just annexed by the city for a guy with one hive. after talking with the guy he realized that moving the hive out of town ment moving it 3 feet to the other side of his fence! no more violation! He said he couldnt figure out who would make a complaint, he said he got along well with the neighbors and everyone in the area got a bottle of honey at Christmastime.
The complaintant was his nextdoor neighbor, I couldnt tell him that but I think he got the idea.

[Eaglerock]

Regis called me today and told me that they lost in the District Justices office, and they were not really allowed to speak. He said he will never go there again without a lawyer. It was like the judge didn't want to hear it, and it was an open and shut case in his eyes.

So he will appeal it if he has the money to. He needs some experts to go with him and has two, one of which is Mary Ann, think he said she is from Penn State and another gentlemen, I forget his name and maybe it was him that was from Penn State. Nevertheless, I have his phone number if anyone wants to call and help him and his son. I am going to send him some money. I can't go there and leave my office, but I can help with the cost. I am not going to post his phone number, but if you want send me a PM or email me then I will give it to you.

Please, help if you can. I feel bad that someone does something good and wants to do something with his boy and they kick their feet kicked out from under them.


The legal fees is something he can't handle on his own, he said if would cost two hundred he can afford that, I told him the lawyer alone will cost more than that.

If you want to send him something his name and address is:

Regis Nale
210 Jackson St.
Hollidaysburg, PA 16648

Again, if you want to call, and can only give moral support, PM me and I will give you his number.

[Musashi]

[QUOTE=Michael Bush; and asked me what I was going to do if the bees "got out". QUOTE]

I have a friend at work who gets to hear some schrapnel from just being near me about beekeeping. He makes general inquiries sometimes when something piques his interest. He's a fairly young guy but very sharp, and all of a sudden it came up that somehow he thought the bees were "trapped" in their hive. I had to explain to him that if the bees couldn't get out how would they go about making honey?

He's no dummy so there must be something about bees or insects in general where humans turn off the logic gene.

[Musashi]

As regards Mr. Hale, offer those officiants a bottle of complimentary honey then when they accept it, arrest them for taking bribes!

What has happened to our poor country?

[Eaglerock]

He's no dummy so there must be something about bees or insects in general where humans turn off the logic gene.

It's just a missing brain cell... ;)

[Eaglerock]

I just wished the neighbors had a swarm in a tree or in their house so they would have to ask for his help... he would be a Hero and not the Villain.

[Eaglerock]

As regards Mr. Hale, offer those officiants a bottle of complimentary honey then when they accept it, arrest them for taking bribes!

What has happened to our poor country?

That was a good one...

Quote: What happened to our poor country?

We American's have turned selfish, lazy, and mean. We think we have rights that no one else in this world oe even neighbors. can or should have. When I was a kid, you played in everyones yard and no one ever complained. Now the Cops would be called and the parents fined. We would never go in one neighbors front yard because she asked us nicely, and told us we could play in her back yard and she even made us cookies and wanted to make us lunch. Bea is gone now, but her memory will live on in me forever, as will Dale, her husband and son and daughter. Dale and Steve (son) even gave me Baseball card collection, worth a few bucks.

[Eaglerock]

I agree. We first need to see if Mr. Nales will go ahead and appeal this further. Whatever his decision, we will stand behind him.

I .

Have you contacted him?

[CentralPAguy]

Great news -- Judge rules in favor of Hale's appeal. Hale's boy can keep his bees. Maryann Frazier provides credible witness that bees pose no more risk than normal dog. :)


http://www.altoonamirror.com/page/content.detail/id/529752.html?nav=742

[Eaglerock]

wow... took them long enough... LOVE those speedy trials. :sleep:


Glad it ended well though.