Jennifers SC Study

[tony350i]

can any one tell me if the bees are still going and what was the out come of the study




Regards Tony

[Bizzybee]

I think they have moved onto bigger better things now?

Bottom line they observed was that there was no significant decline in mite loads on small cell. It was ran twice with the same results.

beemandan is in tight with the gang over there. Maybe he'll catch the thread and say better what they are into. You may find something on their website as well.

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/index.html

[Chef Isaac]

Wasent the study inconclusive? If I remember right, not enough time was given to really see the final outcome. I might be mistaken though.

I find studies to be someone pointless as there usually are too many variables. Plus what works for some, might not work for others. Just a thought!

[longrangedog]

Jennifer spoke at the Metro Atlanta Bee Club earlier this year and in response to this question said that they could find no difference in mite loads in small cell.

[Barry]

So this begs a few questions. Were the SC hives "trashed" (treated, combined with LC, etc.) because the mite loads were the same? Were they allowed to continue without treatments to see how the bees would handle the mite load? Was there follow up study to see if the levels stayed the same or eventually shifted?

[Michael Bush]

I hope it is still going. I'd love to see what happens when the mites get critical. Also the mite reproduction curve may change over the course of the year if reproduction in workers is not so good in small cell but reproduction in drones is the same. IMO, it would take at least a year or two to come to any valid conclusions. Also bees often ignore something until it hits some critical mass so grooming behavior etc may not get triggered until some critical mass of population.

[Bizzybee]

Interesting chef......... I don't recall that being part of what they reported? Not having enough time or no conclusions being made?

Maybe that was others opinion of their study?

[Bizzybee]

According to dan's response in another thread, the first study was followed by a second with the same results. I'm sure it would have simply been an extension of the first using the same bees? Well maybe not so sure :) Maybe dan can enlighten us after gorging on turkey today. :)

[Oldbee]

What I would like to know is; what [the heck] am I supposed to do with all [well, 80 sheets] this small cell foundation I bought,..now?

Seriously:
"IMO, it would take at least a year or two to come to any valid conclusions". MB.
I agree; more like 3-4 or 5,....years.- OB. It seems [from Beesource] that many beekeepers that are sucessful with this have been on SC that long.

Why doesn't some scientist/researcher go and 'research' a beekeeper's operation that is on small cell; especially one where the 'inspector finds only ONE mite out of 10-16 hives'? Why doesn't a beekeeper invite a scientist/researcher to monitor their hives? There certainly must be some beekeepers on small cell in Georgia [Berry] or Minnesota [Spivak] who would be 'willing' to do this to,...'prove their point'. 'Prove',..'Proof'; two words associated with the scientific method.

[dickm]

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/index.php?id=51&option=com_content&task=view

This study by Randy seems like a redo of Jennifers using HSC. She had about the same number of hives. The outcome is a little different. I know that Jennifer started with small cell bees that were already regressed. I don't know anything about her second study. I think her bees died in the winter as well.

dickm

[Chef Isaac]

Bizzy:

could be my age.... dont remember :)

[deknow]

..running a less than 1 full year study (never mind 3-4) on bees seems silly to me.

let's say i want to compare a civic hybrid and a hummer wrt fuel efficency.

if i only drive each vehicle 200 miles (less than a tank of gas), i might be under the impression that the hummer has no disadvantages wrt to milage (as i never had to fill up either vehicle)...but of course, this would be a false conclusion.

unless you are into keeping bees for only a season, i don't see how a study that only spans one season is relevant to anything.

deknow

[Bizzybee]

Why doesn't some scientist/researcher go and 'research' a beekeeper's operation that is on small cell; especially one where the 'inspector finds only ONE mite out of 10-16 hives'? Why doesn't a beekeeper invite a scientist/researcher to monitor their hives? There certainly must be some beekeepers on small cell in Georgia [Berry] or Minnesota [Spivak] who would be 'willing' to do this to,...'prove their point'. 'Prove',..'Proof'; two words associated with the scientific method.

I think because then the conclusion has to drawn from the issue of whether the small cell comb was the reason for there being no mites or is it genetic behavior?

Then it's been said that it's because of the small cell that the behavior is expressed.

There's more than enough that make the claim of no or little mites using large or natural cell.

I could be mistaken but I was of the understanding that the point of the UGA study was to determine whether or not small cell reduced mite loads. Not that it ever had any intent of monitoring any behaviors. Small cell was examined purely as a mechanical device. It in itself is supposed to reduce hatching time for the bees in the cells ergo breaking the maturity cycle of the mites and bringing about their demise.

Their determination based on that premise was that there was no significant difference.

Looking at it from that perspective, why would it take any time past a single brood cycle? If small cell alone is the device by which to block mite production, then removal of mites from any hive would be instantaneous.

If other factors are then to be considered, then wouldn't that call for yet a completely different study?

[tony350i]

I think her bees died in the winter as well.

dickm

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was the colllapse of the hives mites.

Tony

[Radar]

Tony

How are your bees doing, if I remember correctly you got some Drawn plastic "small cell "comb from US.

[Michael Bush]

>It in itself is supposed to reduce hatching time for the bees in the cells ergo breaking the maturity cycle of the mites and bringing about their demise.

Then why not measure that. It's simple enough. Much simpler and much shorter experiment than the one they did.

[Michael Palmer]

Their determination based on that premise was that there was no significant difference.

I believe that the Georgia study showed an increase in the population of mites in the brood in the small cell colonies. It has been said by small cell proponents that this would happen, and the beneficial effects of small cell take longer than the tests done in Georgia.

Why?

[Bizzybee]

There were also more bees in the hives. So the mite to bee ratio was about the same.

Guess I would have the same question. Why?

[Bizzybee]

It would seem to be fair to take from the study that small cell alone has no effect on mites. I believe that was the intent of the study was to make that determination.

If it is in fact true that a longer study would need to be conducted to see results, then it would seem clearly that other facts are then going to be the deciding factor. Would there not, if it has already been determined that the cell size itself has no effect alone?

If the test is to be conducted without outside interference then that would obviously imply that the hives would have to be kept on their own accord without the use of any chemicals or pesticides. The bees would have no choice other than cope with the mites or die in the process. Would that not fall back to the premise that bees are able to adapt to their environment and survivors carry on the genetics just as every other creature does?

Can this only be accomplished through the use of small cell comb to trigger the behavior? There are plenty of people out there not having problems with mites that aren't using small cell foundation or regressing bees. Are they to just simply be ignored? Why are their claims any less valid than those of the small cell users?

I'm not saying that small cell has no positive affect on the bees. I do however think that is yet to be determined in light of other possibilities.

I don't find it prudent to discredit the study that was performed when the arguments include factors that weren't calculated into the tests and wasn't the focus of the study.

[Bud Dingler]

when a researcher creates a study a hypothesis is typically being tested.

thus any results of the study can only be compared to the hypothesis and a tightly drawn set of conclusions can be derived.

again showing respect for diligent and highly regarded researchers is important rather then making ignorant condemnations about how it should have been done different. a seasoned researcher would know how to create a study thats valid before some well intentioned beekeeper. listen to the experts.

i see numerous new hypothesis being tossed around in this thread. something about mite balancing and running the test longer is a completely different set of questions that unless anyone can show any literature references for are nothing but interesting musings from an observant beekeeper.

you can base your beekeeping on science or faith based ideas. since i make my living with my bees i go with the science and there is no science backing the SC theories. its all theory.....

I have kept bees for decades and was born with a hive tool in my hand. to beginners i would reccomend the following:

start with a resistant strain like VSH or Russian
do not use any hive treatments. No TM or miticides
use new or uncontaminated combs
do not take old combs from other beekeepers
use a sticky board or do mite rolls to gather data.
make decisions based on the data.
make splits/nucs or use drone comb removal to cut back any high mite loads
subscribe to bee culture and american bee journal
join a local, state or national bee club, attend the meetings and meet some researchers.
take a university or extension bee course
bee careful of what you read on the internet and hear from other beekeepers that is not backed up by science.
stay away form gimmicks, gizmos and stick with the basics.

[tony350i]

Tony

How are your bees doing, if I remember correctly you got some Drawn plastic "small cell "comb from US.


Hello Radar

bees doing OK thanks, i was 20 strong at one point this year but sold a couple and i am wintering on 16,
i sugar dusted up until last Xmas when i used O/A for the first time and this year i will not treat with anything as i have finally got smaller cell in all hives which i might add that it has taken me a good couple of year to get consistent good 4.9 comb.

Regards Tony