Apis mellifera mellifera

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi, liebe Honigbienen-Freunde in den USA,

mein Interesse gilt den dunklen, mitteleuropäischen Honigbienen Apis mellifera mellifera.
Honigbienen wurden um 1620 in Nordamerika ein wesentlicher Bestandteil der lokalen Faunen und lebten in den Wäldern von Neu England, Virginia und anderen Staaten, wenn ich richtig informiert bin.
Bei den eingeführten Honigbienen handelte es sich um dunkle Honigbienen, die nördlich der Alpen, von Großbritannien bis zum Ural weit verbreitet waren.
Kann mir vielleicht einer sagen, ob diese Unterart (Apis m. mellifera) noch irgendwo in den USA vorkommt, bzw. gezüchtet wird?
Ein vermischen in Deutschland erfolgte ab 1850 mit ligustica, nach 1900 mit carnica, massiv aber durch Verdrängungszucht ab 1950; heute gibt es nur noch einige winzige Reste in diesem Deutschland.
Bitte und freue mich auf eine Antwort.
Herzliche Grüße aus dem alten Deutschland mit den fremden Honigbienen,
Hoschy


Hi, dear friends honeybees in the U.S.,

my interest is in the dark, central Europe Honey bee Apis mellifera mellifera.
Honey bees have been around 1620 in North America essential part of the local fauns and lived in the forests of New England, Virginia and other
States, if I am correctly informed.
In the case of imported honey bees were dark honey bees, the north of the Alps, from
Britain to the Urals were widespread.
Can I perhaps one say whether this subspecies (Apis m. mellifera) is still somewhere in the U.S. occur, or farmed?
A blend made in Germany from 1850 with ligustica, with Carnica after 1900, but by massive
Displacement breeding in 1950, today there are only a few remains in this tiny Germany.
Please and look forward to a reply.
Cordial greetings from the old Germany with the foreign Honey bees,
Hoschy :thumbsup:

[db_land]

Hallo Hoschy, herzliche Willkommen am Beesource.

Do a search and I think you'll find many references to "German black bees". I have a hive somewhere within a mile of my home apiary that I've been trying to locate for years (the area is heavily forested). They are relatively small, shiny black bees with long wasp-like wings. I would like to have a full hive of these just to see how they handle some of today's bee problems.

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hallo Triamgle Bees,
danke für deine Antwort, ich glaube auch, dass es in Nordamerika noch Stämme der alten deutschen/englischen Honigbiene irgendwo gibt. Die größten reinen Populationen leben in Perm/Ural (Russland), eine Nahe Verwandte in Spanien (iberiensis, 80 % der Völker dort gehören zu dieser Form), Spanien hat 2.300000 Bienen Völker.
Ich würde gerne von deinen glänzend schwarzen Bienenvolk ein Foto sehen. Gibt es Fotos?
Vielen Dank,
und Grüße aus Nordrhein Westfalen, Hoschy

[summer1052]

Hallo, Horschy!

Ich lebe im Zustand von Texas, in einem Bereich, der ursprünglich von vielen Tschechischen und Bayerischen Katholischen vereinbart wurde. Jetzt gibt es sehr wenige Imker in diesem Bereich, aber ich habe wilde Bienen gesehen, die Ihre Beschreibung zusammenbringen. Ich habe Geschichten gehört, dass die alten deutschen Bienen tempermental sein konnten. Ich erkundige mich und sehe, was ich für Sie herausfinden kann.

Alles Guete!

Sommer
(Summer)

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Lieber Sommer,
ich bin gespannt was du herraus findest. Bitte mache ein Foto, Texas liegt aber auch im Bereich der afrikanisierten Bienen (scutellata), für mich höchst interessant. :thumbsup:
Viele Grüsse,
Hoschy

[Bizzybee]

Translation for this and other threads.................

http://beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=371705#post371705

Carry on :)

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

danke für den Hinweis, ich benutze Google oder Babylon zur Übersetzung.
Grüsse, Hoschy
Thank you for the note, i use Google or Babylon of translation. Greetings, Hoschy
:thumbsup:

[Alex Cantacuzene]

Welcome Hoschy to this Forum. It is amazing that so many responses in this short time came back in German. I too speak the language but as a courtesy to our other participants will continue in English. We are operating four hives with some Italians, Russian hybirds and two hives that were rescued from extermination, of which one looks like Italians but they are much smaller than normal. I keep my fingers crossed that they are a regressed tribe and will be successful with the Varroa. Those two colonies were rather small when they arrived here and we fed them vigourously until the weather became cold. During the late summer we also had humming bird feeders in the garden and as usual, the later in the year the more frantic the bees became, but that is logical. On one of the feeders we started observing bees that were totally black. At first they were being pushed aside by the others but increased their numbers at the feeder quickly. I could never find out where they came from but they looked very much like some bees that Michael Bush describes as Lus in one of his sites. At first I thought they came from our Russian hybrids that have many dark members but none were as black as the ones I observed. Hopefully, they will all make it through the winter and then we will have another challenge in the coming year. Greetings to all, take care and have fun. Alex in Kentucky

[summer1052]

Lieber Hoschy,

Ja hat Texas afrikanische Bienen. Aber sie sind nicht reine afrikanische Bienen. Wir rufen sie an, "africanized". Sie sind eine Mischung. Sie sind das Gelb, nicht schwarz. Sie kommen, Sie zu grüßen, bevor Sie zum Bienenstock zu nah erhalten! :pinch:

Der Mann, der mir das erklärte, "altes Deutsche" schwarze Bienen waren "heisse" ist 95 Jahre alt (!) und ist ein Imker für 85 Jahre gewesen. Ich sehe, wenn ich ein Foto nehmen kann.

Alles Guete,
(Frau) Kelly Ross, oder, "Sommer" ;) -- meine Gebuertstag ist im sommer.

********

Dear Hoschy,

Yes, Texas has African bees. But they are not pure African bees. We call them "africanized". They are a blend. They are yellow, not black. They will come and greet you before you get too close to the hive!

The man who told me the "old German" black bees were "hot" is 95 years old (!) and has been a beekeeper for 85 years. I will see if I can take a photo.

Best wishes,
(Mrs.) Kelly Ross, or "Summer" -- my birthday is in the summer. ;)

[summer1052]

Babelfish dot yahoo dot com will also translate text for free.

Babelfish Punkt Yahoo-Punkt-COM übersetzt auch Text für freies.

As it happens, I do speak and read German. The mother of my best friend was a war bride.

Während es geschieht, spreche ich und lese Deutschen. Die Mutter meines besten Freunds war eine Kriegbraut.

I congratulate Horschy for broadening our horizons, and his willingness to communicate. Thanks!
Best wishes to all. Summer.

Ich beglückwünsche Horschy für die Erweiterung unserer Horizonte und seine Bereitwilligkeit in Verbindung zu stehen. Danke!

Alles Guete, liebe leute. Sommer.

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi Alex,
leider spreche ich nur schlecht englisch, aber mit der automatischen Übersetzung ist ein kommunizieren gut möglich.
Ich bin auch erstaunt über die vielen Antworten und Hinweise in der kurzen Zeit in diesem Forum. Hier in Deutschland glauben viele Imker in USA gäbe es nur Berufsimker und gelbe Bienen (ligustica).
Für deine Bienen drücke ich dir beide Daumen und wenn diese die Varroa töten, Glückwunsch. Diese Bienen solltest du vermehren, kleine Zelle oder Naturbau erscheint mir auch wichtig, Michael Bush, ein guter Bienenvater schreibt viel darüber, er hat auch schöne Friesenpferde von dort wo ich wohne, so klein ist die Welt.
Ich habe 10 Völker Buckfast und eine ägyptische x monticola Kreuzung von Sven Ohlsson, Finnland, diese Linie kommt bei Ohlsson seid 8 Jahren ohne eine Droge aus. Ich werde diese testen.

Mein Wunsch ist aber einen natürlichen Stamm der Apis m. mellifera germanica, die dunkle mitteleuropäische Honigbiene, aufzubauen und in einem Schutzgebiet zu erhalten; es wird aber sehr, sehr schwer dieses Vorhaben. Die Carniolans beanspruchen alle Gebiete für sich, alle Institute propagieren diese Biene, obwohl es mal eine ökologische Rasse in Deutschland gab, die besondere Qualitäten hatte: Grosse Flugkraft bis 8 km, sehr Winterhart, lange Brutpause und ein langes Leben.
Wir werden sehen, erst einmal müssen wir jetzt unsere Völker über den Winter bekommen und ich wünsche allen viel Erfolg dabei.
Hoffe auf weiteren Kontakt,
schöne Grüsse,
Hoschy aus Nordrhein-Westfalen

Hi Alex,
Unfortunately, I only speak English poorly, but with the
automatic translation is a good communicate
possible.
I am also surprised at the many responses and
Notes in the short time in this forum. Here in
Germany believe many beekeepers in the U.S., there would be only
Professional beekeepers and yellow bees (ligustica).
For your bees, I hit you and if both thumbs
they kill the Varroa, congratulations. These bees
you should multiply, small cell or Naturbau
also seems to me important to Michael Bush, a good
Bees father writes a lot about this, he also has beautiful
Friesian horses from where I live, is so small
World.
I have 10 people Buckfast and an Egyptian x
monticola cola crossing from Sven Ohlsson, Finland, this
Line comes in Ohlsson're 8 years without a drug
off. I will test this.

My desire is but a natural strain of Apis m.
mellifera germanica, the dark Central European
Honey bee, and build in a protected area to
receive it but very, very difficult for this project.
The Carniolans claim all areas for all
Institutes propagate this bee, although it is just
ecological race in Germany was the special
Had qualities: Large air force up to 8 km, very
Hardy, long Brutpause and a long life.
We will see, once we have our
People get through the winter and I wish all
a lot of success here.
I look forward to further contact,
nice greetings,
Hoschy from North Rhine-Westphalia

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi Alex,
leider spreche ich nur schlecht englisch, aber mit der automatischen Übersetzung ist ein kommunizieren gut möglich.
Ich bin auch erstaunt über die vielen Antworten und Hinweise in der kurzen Zeit in diesem Forum. Hier in Deutschland glauben viele Imker in USA gäbe es nur Berufsimker und gelbe Bienen (ligustica).
Für deine Bienen drücke ich dir beide Daumen und wenn diese die Varroa töten, Glückwunsch. Diese Bienen solltest du vermehren, kleine Zelle oder Naturbau erscheint mir auch wichtig, Michael Bush, ein guter Bienenvater schreibt viel darüber, er hat auch schöne Friesenpferde von dort wo ich wohne, so klein ist die Welt.
Ich habe 10 Völker Buckfast und eine ägyptische x monticola Kreuzung von Sven Ohlsson, Finnland, diese Linie kommt bei Ohlsson seid 8 Jahren ohne eine Droge aus. Ich werde diese testen.

Mein Wunsch ist aber einen natürlichen Stamm der Apis m. mellifera germanica, die dunkle mitteleuropäische Honigbiene, aufzubauen und in einem Schutzgebiet zu erhalten; es wird aber sehr, sehr schwer dieses Vorhaben. Die Carniolans beanspruchen alle Gebiete für sich, alle Institute propagieren diese Biene, obwohl es mal eine ökologische Rasse in Deutschland gab, die besondere Qualitäten hatte: Grosse Flugkraft bis 8 km, sehr Winterhart, lange Brutpause und ein langes Leben.
Wir werden sehen, erst einmal müssen wir jetzt unsere Völker über den Winter bekommen und ich wünsche allen viel Erfolg dabei.
Hoffe auf weiteren Kontakt,
schöne Grüsse,
Hoschy aus Nordrhein-Westfalen, Deutschland

Hi Alex,
Unfortunately, I only speak English poorly, but with the
automatic translation is a good communicate
possible.
I am also surprised at the many responses and
Notes in the short time in this forum. Here in
Germany believe many beekeepers in the U.S., there would be only
Professional beekeepers and yellow bees (ligustica).
For your bees, I hit you and if both thumbs
they kill the Varroa, congratulations. These bees
you should multiply, small cell or Naturbau
also seems to me important to Michael Bush, a good
Bees father writes a lot about this, he also has beautiful
Friesian horses from where I live, is so small
World.
I have 10 people Buckfast and an Egyptian x
monticola cola crossing from Sven Ohlsson, Finland, this
Line comes in Ohlsson're 8 years without a drug
off. I will test this.

My desire is but a natural strain of Apis m.
mellifera germanica, the dark Central European
Honey bee, and build in a protected area to
receive it but very, very difficult for this project.
The Carniolans claim all areas for all
Institutes propagate this bee, although it is just
ecological race in Germany was the special
Had qualities: Large air force up to 8 km, very
Hardy, long Brutpause and a long life.
We will see, once we have our
People get through the winter and I wish all
a lot of success here.
I look forward to further contact,
nice greetings,
Hoschy from North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hallo liebe Kelly, ich sehe du bist eine Sommerbiene, bin hoch erfreut über unseren Gedankenaustausch. Ich hoffe noch einiges über deine Bienen, aber auch ein wenig zu erfahren. Meine Frage ist: wie kann man ein Foto an dieser mail anhägen, ich sehe Möglichkeit.
Alles liebe, "Hoschy", mein Name ist Horst Woydak

[tecumseh]

I don't speak a word of german... although I think it was perhaps mizz tecumseh's third laugage (she worked with conrad lorentz as a goose girl a long time ago).

back to the german black bees... apis millifera millifera.

abc-xyz states that the german black bee was originally dutch in origin. when it got here for some reason it's tag of origin was altered to german.

my original mentor (about 50 years ago up in the Applachian Mountain chain) kept german 'black' bees. they had the reputation of collecting small crops and being EXTREMELY defensive (the latter was definitely not rumors or urban legend). I had always wondered if the defensive nature was due to TRUE disposition or inbreeding. a lot of those old time bee keepers would never have spend a dime on a mated queen so inbreeding would have been entirely possible... if not highly probable.

I also seem to recall that the german's had morphological differences which meant that they were somewhat limited in the crop they could collect.

actually my mentors bees were so rank that I really have wonder later on what compelled me as a 12 year old to stick with it (I should add our veils and gloves were home made in those days). it would be about 20 years before I ran across some very yellow bees down on the Mississippi River that were equally (actually even more defensive) than my mentor's german blacks.

as Summer stated (she is a bit due south of my location) we do have some hybridized africanized bees here. it appears visually (to me) that the more a colony is hybridized an individual workers and any natural comb built will get smaller. all the intermediate are difficult to recognize visually... but the Texas State Bee Lab will identify these using lab techniques which keeps the guessing down to a minimum.

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

hallo tecumseh,
Konrad Lorenz ist mir wohl bekannt und seine ethnologischen Stutien an Gänsen, Enten und Raben auch.
Mit der holländischen Biene ist im allgemeinen die Heidebiene gemeint. Diese war über Holland, Nordeutschland, Dänemark verbreitet über viele Jahre. Eine Zuchtform der alten mitteleuropäischen Biene.
Als Hymenoptereologe und Faunist interessiere ich mich sehr für die derzeitige Verbreitung der Apis m. mellifera ohne irgendwelche kommerziellen Gedanken.
Im Vordergrund steht bei mir die Biodiversität "dunkle Honigbiene".
Mit imkerlichen Grüssen, Hoschy

hello Tecumseh,
Konrad Lorenz is well known to me and his
ethnological Stutien of geese, ducks and ravens too.
With the Dutch bee is generally the
Heath bee-intentioned. This was Holland,
Nordeutschland, Denmark spread over many years.
A breeding form of the old central European bee.
As Hymenoptereologe and I am interested Faunist
very much for the current spread of Apis m. mellifera
without any commercial thoughts.
The focus is on me the biodiversity "dark
Honeybee. "
With imkerlichen Sincerely, Hoschy

[summer1052]

Tecumseh, I can explain how German became Dutch. This happened with the Plain people of Swiss origin who spoke German and migrated to the US. We know them as Amish.

In the German language, dutch = Niederlander. From the Netherlands. Deutsch, pronounced "Doy-tch" is the German word for "German". They came here, and became Dutch.

Next time you play trivial pursuit, you will know the winning answer! LOL

Summer

[tecumseh]

hoschy writes:
Konrad Lorenz is well known to me

tecumseh:
well thanks for correcting my spelling hoschey. my spellin' is a genetic defect perhaps????.... although on occasions quite intentional on my part.

I should note here that Lorenz considered himself an Austrian and not German. I suspect a bit of this had to do with him being subscripted into the German army during the second world war. Evidently there was some bad feeling between Lorenz and some of his fellow 'ethologist' after the war over his 'service' in the German army.

and thanks summer for the 'language' lesson.

so hoschey... what motivates your interest in those 'black bees'? is this interest purely motivated by preservation concerns?

[Alex Cantacuzene]

Hello Hoschy and thanks for the notes of interest. The translation program seems to work well, although sometimes we will have to have a bit of imagination to follow the intent of the text. However, I think, we would not be beekeepers if we did not have a good dose of imagination. In my particular case, that is what my neighbors and friends think, they just use different words to describe my condition.........Take care and have fun

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hello Tecumseh,
ja, Konrad Lorenz war geboren in Wien Austria, was er mit dem 2.Weltkrieg zu tun hatte weiss ich nicht, interessiert mich auch nicht.

Mich interessiert die ehemalige, mitteleuropäische Biene, weil sie ein Ökotyp unserer heimischen Fauna war. Mich interessiert wo sie heute noch lebt. Ich bin überzeugt davon, dass in den USA es Imker gibt, die diese Biene pflegen.

MfG. Hoschy
Hello Tecumseh,
yes, Konrad Lorenz was born in Vienna, Austria, which he
the 2nd World War had to do, I do not know
I am also not interested.

I am interested in the former Central European bee,
because they have a ecotype was our native fauna. Me
interested in where she still lives. I am convinced
that in the U.S. there are beekeepers, these bee
Maintain.

Cheers. Hoschy

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi Alex,
mit der Übersetzung klappt es gut, jedoch besteht immer die Gefahr des nicht richtig verstehen. Aber du hast recht, wir wären nicht Imker würden wir nichts verstehen. Ich benutze Google oder Babylon und vergleiche, es wird verschieden übersetzt. Also Achtung!
Heute habe ich gelesen, dass auf einer Versammlung der CICAMM (Societas Internationalis Conservatione Apis mellifera mellifera) in Frankreich auch ein U.S. Amerikaner angereist war; man sieht auch in U.S. besteht Interesse für die dunkle Biene.
Viele Grüße,
Hoschy

Hi Alex,
with the translation work is good, but there is always
the risk of not properly understood. But you
rather, we would not be beekeepers, we would not understand.
I use Google or Babylon and compare it
translated differently. So Attention!
Today I read that at a meeting of
CICAMM (Societas Internationalis Conservation Apis
mellifera mellifera) in France, also a U.S.
Americans angereist was one sees in U.S. is
Interest for the dark bee.
Many greetings,
Hoschy

[tecumseh]

hoschy writes:
Me interested in where she still lives. I am convinced
that in the U.S. there are beekeepers, these bee
Maintain.

tecumseh:
I would not be surprised if there was not still some reminamnt up in the applachian mountain chain. A lot of those old time beekeepers use to get a lot of their stock from ferals in the trees (usually when stand of trees were cut for logs).

best to you and your pursuit..

[dickm]

If you are really looking for the black bee, here's a start.

Dickm

Protection of the Black bee
tirsdag 20. marts 2007
The situation for the protecktion of the Black bee (Apis mellifere mellifera) on Læsø


The background

On the isolated Island of Læsø, Denmark has a population of black bees Apis mellifera mellifera.

The black bees on the Island have been kept there by beekeepers for many years. They are gentle, productive with a high tolerance to adverse climatic condi-tions. The majority of beekeepers on Læsø, with the support of the Danish Beekeepers Association have for many years worked for establishing Læsø as a conservation area for the black bee.

We succeeded in 1993 when Læsø was declared a conservation area of the black bee, Apis mellifera mellifera. Only black bees should be allowed on Læsø, and no imports were permitted.

This was a huge step forward in the conservation of the biodiversity of bees in Europe, and one of the few situations where Denmark fulfilled its obligations to the Rio Convention.

The problems

A few beekeepers questioned the legal background of the regulation and obstructed the conservation. Legal battles took place through several years until the European Court and local courts finally i 2001 declared the conservation area legal.

Change of government in 2002 in Denmark gave new momentum to the battle against the conservation area. The liberal government does not support the conservation area. The new minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food Mrs. Mariann Fischer Boel was basically against the conservation. She asked the Ministry to prepare a new report on the rationale behind the conservation area.

The conclusion was: The conservation of the black bee is justified and an important issue in fulfilling Denmarks obligations to the Rio Convention.

But for political reasons the report gave several solutions to solve the problems.

The ministry decided to make a protected mating station for the black bee in the very eastern part of Læsø and allow other bee races on other parts of Læsø. With the further limitation that the area should only be protected until 20th of July each year.

Mrs. Mariann Fischer Boel became in 2004 the European commissioner of Agriculture, her predecessor as Minister Mr. Hans Chr. Schmidt continues the work to allow other bee races on Læsø.

The positions

The ministry and government owned Danish Bee Research Laboratory stated that this solution is viable and gives sufficient isolation to make a high degree of pure matings. Independent scientists and the Danish Beekeepers Association are convinced that this is not the case. Winds from the West are predominantly on Læsø. The distance from the western borderline to the mating station is less than 3 km. There will be an influx of drones from all Læsø to the mating station.

Strong support of the conservation

Due to strong support from independent scientists and organisations we succeeded to get some improvements into the new regulation.

The mating area on the easternmost end of Læsø is protected all year, and a large portion of the government owned plantations on Læsø are reserved for black bees. The government gave a very small grant to the Læsø Beekeepers Association to help them run the mating station.

The situation just now

The ministry took on the task to get all „non-black bees" removed from the „protected" mating area. This has not happened yet.

The Ministry promised to make DNA analyses of all bee colonies on Læsø to facilitate the selection of black bees. The bees have been collected but no results of the analyses yet, so no help for the selection this year. The Ministry promised to register all bee-colonies on the Island in order to facilitate the removal of „non-black bees" from the „protected areas". It ended up with a regulation that is asking for an annual registration of black bees, while the other beekeepers only need to register once, with no further follow up. The Ministry has moved a few colonies of black bees to another Island where they can be maintained with very large expenses.

The Danish Beekeepers Association have accepted to investigate the possibilities to have other bee races on the Island. But unless the Ministry fulfils it own regulations promptly this is definitely not possible.

The Beekeepers Association of Læsø does a huge effort to produce a high number of black bee colonies. But to make pure matings is very difficult due to the permission to have other bees on most of the Island.



Presented at the Apimondia congress in Dublin, Ireland 2005
Flemming Vejsnæs, Rolf Theuerkauf and Asger Søgaard Jørgensen

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Danke für die Informationen zur Situation der schwarzen Biene auf der Insel in Dänemark.
In Deutschland sind aber die Probleme Schutzgebiete für die schwarze Biene einzurichten noch viel größer. Unsere alte dunkle Biene wird mit Füssen getreten. Jetzt sind wir carniolans-buckfast-land.
Solange es aber in den Nachbarstaaten noch schwarze Bienen gibt, bleibt die Hoffnung auf eine neue Besiedlung der dunklen Biene in Deutschland.
Grüße, Hoschy
Thanks for the information on the situation of black
Bee on the island in Denmark.
In Germany, but the problems for Protected Areas
the black bee to set much higher. Our
old dark bee will be trampled. Now
We carniolans-Buckfast country.
As long as it is in neighboring states still black
Bee there remains the hope of a new settlement
the dark bee in Germany.
Regards, Hoschy

[Alex Cantacuzene]

Hello Hoschy et al. In another post I mentioned that this summer and fall I did have some black bees on our hummingbird feeders. I was pleasantly surprised but still don't know where they came from. Hopefully it is a feral hive and maybe someone has some suggestions of how to trace them. Finding a hive such as this would be very interesting, especially if they are really wild living Apis mellifera mellifera. Take care and have fun.

Hallo Hoschy et al. In einer früheren Nachricht hier habe ich gesagt das diesen Sommer schwarze Bienen an unserem Kolibrifutternapf waren. Ich war glücklich und erstaunt aber ich weiß immer noch nicht wo sie her kamen. Hoffentlich ist das ein wildes Volk und vielleicht kann mir jemand Vorschläge machen wie man sie finden kann. Einen Bau von so einem Volk zu finden wäre sehr interessant, besonders wenn sie wirklich wild lebendede Apis mellifera mellifera sind. Sei auf Hut und habe Spass.

P.S. Today it is about 22F and much too cold for bees, but then there are the books!
Heute ist es ungefähr 6C und viel zu kalt für Bienen, aber dann gibst ja Bücher zu lesen!

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi lieber Alex,
ich komme gerade aus meinem Garten wo meine Bienen stehen, einige fliegen, es ist sonnig und 9C warm. Ich wünsche mir eine Biene, die hier in Nordrhein-Westfalen um diese Jahreszeit nicht ausfliegt und das ist die dunkle Biene. Meine Kollegen glauben mir nicht, aber ich sage, seht euch die Ameisen im Garten an, diese sind nicht domestiziert und krabbeln nicht bei jeder Temperaturschwankung aus.
Was wir brauchen ist eine Biene die den Umweltbedingen standhalten bzw. angepasst sind an die ökologischen Verhältnisse.
Allerdings, was nutzt die beste Biene wenn uns diese durch Chemie (Gifte) kaputt gemacht wird. "Erst stirbt die Biene und dann wir".
Ich freue mich auf weitere Konversationen und nach deinen dunklen must du im nächsten Jahr suchen.
Hi dear Alex,
I have just come from my garden where my bees
stand, some fly, it is sunny and warm 9C. I
I would like a bee, here in North Rhine-Westphalia
in order not ausfliegt this season and this is the
dark bee. My colleagues do not believe me, but I
say, you see the ants (Lasius niger) in the garden, these are
not domesticated and are not crawling at each
Temperature fluctuation from.
What we need is a bee with the Umweltbedingen
stand or adapted to the ecological
Relationships.
However, what uses the best when we have this bee
by chemical (poisons) will be broken. "Only dies
the bee and then we, or rather we die? ".
I look forward to further conversations and after your
Must dark you are looking for next year.
Hoschy:thumbsup:

[Tom G. Laury]

In the mid 1970's I lived in the country West of Gilroy, Calif. A beekeeper friend of mine "took care" of the bees on an old estate on Hecker pass. Huge old Victorian mansion, vineyards, orchards, cattle etc. The old widow lived in the big house. The place had its own apiary natch. There were 12 or 15 colonies on a big stand. The bees were all the same: shorter but larger around than Italians. Dark but not black, more brown. They were really different. By the time the cover was off and maybe one frame pulled virtually all the bees were on the outside of the box, hanging in a nervous cluster. They would run at the slightest provocation and had an annoying way of getting on you and "buzzing" with their wings. The old lady dictated management: All kept in singles, allowing them to swarm. Fill empties with swarms. After swarm season, shallows were put on . It was a pretty good area for bees. She had her own extractor, set it up in the screened porch.

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Hi Tom, danke für die Information. Nach deiner Beschreibung handelte es sich um eine dunkle Biene. Das Verhalten ist typisch für Heide-Bienen. In Skandinavien gibt es diese noch.


Hi Tom, thanks for the information. After your
Description was a dark bee. That
Behavior is typical for heath bees. In Scandinavia
There is still this.
Kind regards, Hoschy

[odfrank]

In the mid 1970's, Gilroy, Dark but not black, more brown. They were really different. By the time the cover was off and maybe one frame pulled virtually all the bees were on the outside of the box, hanging in a nervous cluster. They would run at the slightest provocation and had an annoying way of getting on you and "buzzing" with their wings.

The feral bees were similar in San Mateo county at that time. Impossible to find the queen due to the running and stinging. We converted them by gassing with ammonium nitrate, shaking off in front of the hive, and running them back in with a queen excluder at the entrance. New queen introduced above a division screen, old queen painted, and squish and merge after acceptance of new queen.

[SantaCruzBee]

Where is Michael Bush? Didn't he talk about German black bees on occasion?

Doug

[Beemaninsa]

My question is do/did german black bees have a more of a propensity to nest in the ground (or caves) than Italians? I am doing a personal research project regarding an 1866 Mason County Texas incident. The story was that a fellow named James Smith, a honey hunter, was attempting to retrieve honey from a cave on the Llano river. He was climbing down from the bluff above when his rope snapped and he fell to his death. I assume the bees in the area were the German Black bees. I know Italians prefer to nest in trees, not caves. I know AHB don't mind nesting in the ground, but were obviously not present at the time. Any insight would be appreciated.

[Michael Bush]

I was finding a lot of dark survivors that had a lot of the qualities of the German bees. I haven't had time to collect them so much in recent years because of a change in jobs that ties up a lot more of my time and mine don't seem to have those qualities so much anymore. Such as making a lot of propolis and being runny in addition to being small and black.

[Hoschy vom Griesenbruch]

Thank you for the very interesting hints, I've noted. I have also heard of dark bee belongs, which nests in rocks, whether the ligustica do less remains to betested. I will after this Conduct research in Europe.
A special feature of the bee is that in France and Spain from bee keeper just empty Boxes are positioned in the shoals revoke (extensive mode of operation).
I hope for further instructions. Greetings from snowbound Westphalia, Hoschy