Bulk honey prices and market outlook

[jean-marc]

How is the packer going to get honey to sell.

That's pretty easy. He's just going to get more foreign honey like he has been doing for the past 15-20 years. Probably will be a little darker than he would like it to be, but don't you worry he'll find it.

The honey industry need to address 2 key issues. One being adulteration. This practise has to end. Somehow we need quick and inexpensive tests to determine if honey is pure. Somehow only pure honey should be able to make it to market. It is certainly not the case now.The other issue is the one of residues. Like Ron Phipps said producers need to be able to protect their livestock and consummers need to eat a healthfull food. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking that honey is pristine and free of any and all contaminates. We as an industry need reasonable tolerances for residues so that we can protect our bees from pests and diseases. Remember the chloramphenicol (sp?) issue. I always thought that the biggest mistake that the chinese did was using the wrong antibiotic. I also remember some honey being rejected because 3 parts per billion of chloramphenicol was found in the honey. Some honey was in the order of 200 parts per billion. Now at 3 parts per billion I'm unlikely to believe any arguement that this is a health issue. The mistake on the chinese part was the wrong choice of antibiotic to access world honey market. Had they used oxytetetracycline it would have been a non issue even at 200 ppb. Why the chinese used chloramphenicol, now that's another issue. I suspect resistance to other antibiotics.

Somehow the world honey industry need to address this. Lately it's been a case of finger pointing. I don't think anybody will come out victorious with that kind of strategy. There may be some temporary advantages/set backs but no long term gains to be had IMHO.

Comments?

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

In the famous words from Nancy at Dutch Bronze, when asked about the shortage of honey.
"I don't think theres a shortage, the honey always seEms to come from somewhere"

[kiwiBee]

I don't know about other parts of the world but for us personally here in New Zealand we struggle to get a fair price for every aspect of our beekeeping income from pollination to propolis to honey. I feel that as beekeepers we are undervalued and our industry is not taken seriously.
I get fedup with working so hard to turn around and sell honey at $4 a kilo and know that it's being shipped and onsold at 4-5 times that price.
here in new zealand we have a huge amount of food safety regulations to adhere too and until recently have been able to produce honey with no chemicals in the hive at all with the arrival of varroa we now have to treat with miticide. We dont treat for AFB the hives are destroyed, we can't sell honey thats been in supers treated with PDB so it's not used. The honey is as good as you can get it and yet the packers will not give you a fair price for it. Makes me so mad

[irwin harlton]

A little history of chloramphenicol in chinese honey

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/bees.htm

This article was written in feb. 2003, yet in 2009 chloramphenciol was still used to identify chinese honey

[Ian]

>The honey industry need to address 2 key issues. One being adulteration. ......The other issue is the one of residues

I completely agree.
Our honey traded on the open market will fetch its fair price.
but our honey right now isnt trading against itself, but rather adulterated honey and blends.
The consumer has to be able to recognize the difference between the honey they are buying and the honey they think they are buying.
If the consumer is able to recognize the difference, our honey will again trade against itself again

[John Smith]

I suspect the Chloramphenicol to be more to do with the trade war than with any concerns for public health. Here are some of the questions I wrestle with and (my own) trial answers:

How does it come about that the big users of Chloramphenicol (China and Argentina) are also the largest exporters of honey? Is Chloramphenicol more effective than Western Antibiotics? Is it about the honey or is this an effort to protect the market from cheap Chinese antibiotic competition.

If the Chinese and the Argentineans are consuming all this poison, why aren’t their people dying like flies from cancer? What country has the most cancer? It wouldn’t be one on the North American Continent, now would it?

Carcinogens............... wow! what a powerful word. Salt is a carcinogen! Oxygen is a killer! People drown in water! Now Tamiflu, that great product we want to make compulsory for folk suffering from Swine Flu Fear, it wouldn’t be a carcinogen, .................. unless, of course one was reading the Beijing Newspapers.

OK, so I suspect China could be seen as a major competitor of Western Medicine Companies. Give any laboratory in the Western Bloc countries enough funding and they could find valid (to their minds and in their language only) reasons to reject any Chinese medicine. I also suspect any lab in China could do the same with Western Medicines.

Governments have shown a distinct tendency to ignore any dilution of honey with cheap manufactured syrups, as they know the masses must be fed, and they sure don’t want food prices to rise. But let someone threaten the Pharmaceutical Industries, and governments worldwide will pounce on the offenders with or without legal justification and authority to do so.

Honey is also a threat to these massive and powerful industries, so if we can kill two birds with one stone, what a win - win scoop that would be.

Hence, it follows that if we beekeepers want to survive, we need to quit trying to compete with supermarket honey and start promoting REAL honey, our own honey; honey from flowers and charge the customer enough to make it worth our time. Smart honey packers will do the same. Britain's beekeepers woke up to this one maybe thirty years ago. They get premium prices for local honey BUT NOT BY MARKETING IT THROUGH SUPERMARKETS!

The simple fact that we fail to dignify honey and promote it to its proper level of respect in the marketplace will have to be ignored and forgiven, as that is our main weakness and one we are not likely to overcome in the near term.

When honey does receive its proper recognition for the superior health giving qualities it brings us, it will be because the public at large create that change. It seems quite unlikely that beekeepers collectively will have much input into making that wave.
One good honest Doctor (Dr. Ron Fessenden, in his book, “The Honey Revolution”) is more likely to trigger that wave than most of the beekeepers I know. There are some fine exceptions too!

In the mean time, Westerners continue to die from every conceivable malady, too blinded by the sales spin of modern medicine to accept a little help from honey, and this is all good for the economy. But it will not always be this way. The worm is turning.

Good Luck and Long Life!

JohnS

[irwin harlton]

Comments?

Jean-Marc

You are right the two biggest problems or challenges facing this industry are adulteration and residues

Adulteration has been around since the beginning , I think, I recall a test of grocery store honey in the early 70's coming up with a very high percentage of honey possibly being adulterated, the tests back then were nowhere as a accurate as we got today.So we can readily detect if honey is adulterated.The same applies to residues.

The USA's biggest problem is there is no clear precise definition of honey, as a food on the shelf

When a problem is found by a "Good" PACKER, the honey is returned to the seller, broker, instead of being destroyed,.... for whatever reason.... could it be the cost of destroying this product ? OR JUST easier to let someone else pack it and take the risk,( seems low) whatever the reason it just adds to the amount of cheaper adulterated honey or residue tainted honey

The honey police ,weather it be the industry or the gov't have been very lax,( very small industry) only pressure from AHPD and reputable packers competing with the bad product have brought forward the seriousness of the problem.This bad honey has also had a profound effect on prices, allowing the packers both good and bad the best of both worlds

The only honey I ever heard of being destroyed by FDA was a load from Canada,in old rusty drums containing lead paint chips,off the drums...... went down a empty mine shaft in Arizona, if my facts are straight

Just my opinion, like to hear others

[jean-marc]

So what is today price? Who's offering what?

Jean-Marc

[Beeslave]

Yesterday I was offered $1.40 for ELA and $1.44 for W per lbs. for 30 drums picked up at my place. Buyer pays shipping. I declined!

[J-Bees]

Yesterday I was offered $1.40 for ELA and $1.44 for W per lbs. for 30 drums picked up at my place. Buyer pays shipping. I declined!

That's Ok cause there is still plenty of overseas honey on the market.

[irwin harlton]

From Mid US Honey hot line 763 658 4193 report of SEPT 20 One load sold at 1.46, seller described his crop as fair .Speaker comments on the mid US crop.....not sounding like a good crop

[jean-marc]

Every one seems to know that except the packers. Then the conversation goes "I heard such and such area had a great crop, lots of honey out there, blah blah blah... some good Argentina, plenty of honey from China or blends or adulterated honey on the market so I can offer you this price", which is usually disappointing from the beekeeper's point of view. It would be kinda nice if they had another tune to their repertoire. I mean it's getting kinda boring hearing the same old song and dance.

Jean-Marc

[wbee]

Heard the hottest market right now is Asia-Japan paying well above current US prices

Japan is a very good market right now.....

[sqkcrk]

So what is today price? Who's offering what?

Jean-Marc

The annual question. I don't really have an answer. But the question always makes me think of the year that I called a Northeast Packer about their price. They said that they were paying something kinda high, but they weren't buying any at that time. So what's the point of saying that I'll pay you $X.XX for your honey, but I don't want any at this time?

How much can you sell your honey for Jean-Marc? I'm offering $1.30/lb.

[jean-marc]

I sold a load $1.60 Canadian, sorta had too, it was sitting outside under tarps in a not so secure place. I was not desperate for the money but I wasn't looking for work that would have been required to get an extra shipping container, move bees to make room for it. Then move the honey wait a whole bunch of time and maybe get an extra 10 cents or perhaps 25 cents. I'm sure the market is going upwards but how high and when will it move upwards? $1.60 sounded fairly reasonable at the time.

Jean-Marc

[Ian]

A good marketing plan has to involve selling "some" honey ;)

[themrbee]

mark
wixons paying 1.45

[wildbranch2007]

mark
wixons paying 1.45

if wixons is paying 1.45 then the other packers should be checked as he is usually the lowest around

mike

[sqkcrk]

mark
wixons paying 1.45

Jerry has more capital than I do.

[sqkcrk]

if wixons is paying 1.45 then the other packers should be checked as he is usually the lowest around

mike

Not so much so since Roscoe died. From what I have heard. I think Jerry's prices are pretty competitive w/ Dutfch Gold and it's subsidiary McLures, in NH.

[irwin harlton]

HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF September, 2009,issued oct 15 2009


http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/statistics.asp

see USDA Price Reports, click on National honey report


Maybe the honey "bubble" has burst and prices will be trending downward.Maybe demand has fallen off and the so called shortage will become a oversupply

[irwin harlton]

Using the inflation calculator at http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
and using some past historic honey prices, bulk honey sold for .50/lb in 1973= 2.40/lb in 2008
Prices varied over the following years, influenced by large crops, imports, from a record high of $0.61 per pound in 1981 to $0.54 in 1993.

.61/lb in 1981=1.43/lb in 2008 .54/lb in1993 =.79/lb in 2008

[jean-marc]

Irwin, I just scanned quickly over the NHB report. I'm not sure why you speculate that the honey bubble has burst or why demand is decreasing? I didn't see that there but I wasn't paying attention too closely.

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

Just seems to me that looking at the prices reportedly being paid in sept,in USA, are not reflecting a world shortage of white honey.Plus we have a short US and Canadian crop.No doubt packers are waiting for the official report on these crops
Current Canadian prices are higher than US,compliments of our strong rising loonie.
The US prices I think have something to do with the present economic conditions in the US where some commodities are still in the deflation mode.If we look at the last 3 years of prices ,honey has come along way, doubling in price from 2006, and personally I think it has along ways to go, but I could be wrong

[John Smith]

I think you are right, Irwin.

I think the big boys are trying to sell the idea that prices will ease because that is what they want to see happen.

No problem. I am doing the same just in reverse. I want to see prices increase, so I talk them up. One simply has to consider the source to decode the message. Buyers used to call any such talk about rising prices “Beekeeper Talk.” So I consider the “Buyer Talk” to be just as tainted.

I’m reading a new book about the healing power of honey now. Surely I am not the only person in the world doing that. (Healing Honey by Dr. Lynne Chepulis http://www.amazon.com/Healing-Honey-Natural-Remedy-Wellness/dp/1599424851)

I see no way but up for world honey prices, even if only as a result of inflation. But with honey being grossly undervalued for what seems like a century, I can’t imagine the price falling substantially. On the contrary, if the trend towards natural sweetness continues, which I feel certain it will, the relative price of honey should keep climbing too.

By relative price, I mean despite the inflation component, honey’s value relative to glucose, oil and toothpaste: honey will be VALUED more, regardless of what it is compared to. Just a rise in price due to failing values in currency does not guarantee honey is keeping pace with inflation. If we lose too much more ground from inflation, we are off the map.

With honey having only about 1 % of the sweeteners market, we sure don’t need many more mouths to embrace it and the demand will have doubled. We don’t need the entire 6 billion people on earth on board. All we really need is a simple test the consumer can do at home to test whether the product is real honey or has been cut with some manufactured syrup.

Cheers.
JohnS

[Wee3Bees]

I have a copy of an old bee magazine from the late 1800s (US) and it has a 17 year diary of a beekeeper whose records showed all of his expenses, sales and pounds produced each year. I will have to find it and post his data soon.

However, based on his experience with honey production, cost and sales (from over 125 years ago) my thoughts are that the price of honey was pretty well stable in the last one hundred years. My opinion is based on the fact that I used his prices and plugged them into an inflation chart from the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Bank and came up with an inflation adjusted price of slightly over $1 per pound.

The bad news is that I don't know whether this gentleman sold his honey at a wholesale or retail price (which makes a difference). Honey prices appear to have remained constant to the US Dollar and inflation rates. This makes perfect sense whilst we were on a gold standard (until 1971).

Now, I believe that the most important factor in determining what prices we could get for honey at the wholesale (bulk) level is how much our dollar appreciates or depreciates to a basket of other major currencies.

The US Dollar has decreased by 44% since the beginning of 2000 against the EURO (ending May, 2009). This would mean a price increase of honey to maintain the status quo of about 79% since the year 2000.

What was the price of honey in the year 2000? I'm not 100% certain, but was it around $0.80 per pound? If so, then the price of $1.50 US Dollar is just keeping up with the US Dolllar's depreciation against our major trading partners.

The question that I would be asking myself is how much higher or lower is the US Dollar going to go in the next 5 to 10 years? The answer to that question will shape the focus of my bee operation. I believe that the US government has no choice but to deflate the US dollar to pay back all of our nation's debt.

Looking back to the year 2000 how the US Dollar has declined against our major trading partners as a base year and projecting a similar decline in the next ten years, then honey prices should be well over $2.25 per pound at the wholesale level IMHO. On the other hand, we could see $2.25 per pound during 2010 or 2011...

P. S. I am not an economist, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[The Honey Householder]

I went back over my books to see what the 2000 crop paid. I had two semi loads that sold for $.62 a pound for wht. honey.
The US is in a big honey shortage right now. If you are a producer in the US, you are the one setting the prices. I only produced 49 ton this year, which is a short corp for me. The 2009 crop is a thing of the past for me. The packers didn't like my prices but they paid them. I had to hear how they couldn't make anything this year because of the high price of honey. They was just trying to keep there customers. And I'm just one selling my crop to stay in business each year. It's OK that the producer make out some years too. If it wasn't for the producer producing honey, the packers wouldn't have anything to pack. And if it was for you packer packing and selling our honey we would need to produce it.
I can't wait to see what 2010 crop is going bring. I just hope 2009 wasn't the peek year.

[John Smith]

I can't see any reason why the 2010 crop should fetch any thing less than the 2009 one is fetching.

Those poor packers (oh dear, I'm out of tissues to wipe my eyes with) would do better to stop crying about not making any money and start selling honey at prices they too can benefit from. If they can't do that, they might as well go broke as far as I am concerned. They are not good for the industry, nor for me. Anyone who can't sell honey in today's marketplace is not a salesman, he is a supplier only.

My prediction is though, that by the time 2010 is over, everyone will be wishing they had held over the 2009 crop, or part thereof anyway.

The Eastern States of Australia are experiencing drought like you wouldn't believe. Honey flows are just not happening, well, maybe one day per week, but my bees are living day to day, week to week. We get an hour or two of spring every day as the weather goes from frost to fierce dry wind and piercing hot sun. In the evening, we may get another little touch of spring, but there are less bees alive then.

Meanwhile, the retail market's awareness of honey continues to expand. It is only the people within the industry who refuse to change their rhetoric! Bad Luck for them!

Cheers,

JohnS

[The Honey Householder]

Just checking on the honey price. I've had packers call me in the past two days looking for honey. I know when the packers start calling the price is getting ready to go up. I only wish I still had a load of honey to sell. The load quotes was above $1.50+. Which for me I sold everything sofar this year early for $1.65 an up, to the smaller guys. I think the shorage is starting to show.

[suttonbeeman]

Had a call today....two large packers offering 1.60 for ex la.

[Wee3Bees]

I'm liking it as I have 13 drums of extra light amber and 8 drums of white left. :popcorn:

Anyone out there thinking that the year 2010 will usher in $2 per pound of ELA? I will go out on a limb and speculate that we will see that kind of price somewhere in 2010.

[Wee3Bees]

BTW my wife got a quote from one of the largest producers in the USA last week for $1.60 per pound of clover. Would that be ELA or white? I don't really see any clover honey down here... at least as a monocrop.

[irwin harlton]

"So, this year our predictions are that 2.223 million colonies (down from last year because of colony losses to colony collapse disorder and last year’s poor honey crop) will produce 53.7 pounds of honey each, for a total of 119.37 million pounds of U. S. produced honey ... this is, friends, the worst honey crop ever. EVER!"

Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/honey-beekeeping-47102806#ixzz0VXApIIPX

[jean-marc]

So what's the current market price? I think there is not much movement of honey in Canada. The US currency has softened so I think that US buyers are hesitating to purchase Canadian honey as it costs them more. The longer they wait though, the less honey there is, the more price goes up.

The other side of that coin is the incentive for cheating increases. So what will the cheating chinese rascals come up with next?

Interestingly Kim Flottum points out that Europe is now purchasing all kinds of chinese honey. He questions the residue issue and doubts that chinese beekeeping practises have changed to the point where residues would not be an issue I would reply that residue issues diminish with many packers as the price diminishes.

Jean-Marc

[JohnK and Sheri]

So what will the cheating chinese rascals come up with next?
Jean-Marc

This isn't a "Chinese" problem. It is a problem with some U.S. (maybe Canadian as well?) packers. If they were really interested in policing tainted honey imports, circumvented honey or mislabeled "honey blends", instead of colluding with them, there would be no market.
I suspect the honest beekeepers, importers and packers in any country are appalled by the bottom dwellers amongst them and find competing on an uneven playing field increasingly frustrating.
Sheri

[suttonbeeman]

well said sherri!

[JohnK and Sheri]

Oh, almost forgot! A local beek was offered $1.68 for half a load of white, by a medium large packer. Who knows, maybe prices will start reflecting the actual supply situation for a change. Maybe this is the year we pay down the trucks, update that old equipment and buy a new Swinger. :applause:
Sheri

[JohnLaurino]

This isn't a "Chinese" problem. It is a problem with some U.S. (maybe Canadian as well?) packers. If they were really interested in policing tainted honey imports, circumvented honey or mislabeled "honey blends", instead of colluding with them, there would be no market.
I suspect the honest beekeepers, importers and packers in any country are appalled by the bottom dwellers amongst them and find competing on an uneven playing field increasingly frustrating.
Sheri
chinese "funny" honey is a nightmare for anyone serious about selling genuine honeys. I think most of you already know but few days ago we had a chinese executive pleading guilty in a fraud/circumvention case from Chicago, still a consequence of Alfred Wolf's process : http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-fri-honey-1030-oct30,0,7537759.story?track=rss

[JohnLaurino]

This year has been a disaster in various important honey sourcing countries, it is unlike that such horrible crops will repeat next year. At the same time the economic situation is still far from a comfort zone thus i believe there are chances to declining prices from March to September 2010. In Brazil we have an overall production of app 38,000 tons (2009 estimative) for a domestic consumption of app 12,000 tons. I think brazilian output will continue growing next year what will certainly help to mitigate the supply shortage.

[JohnK and Sheri]

JohnLaurino, welcome to the board!
Yes, the funny honey is a nightmare but not if packers would refuse to buy it.....honest beekeepers, packers and importers/exporters should all be yelling for better policing and higher penalties. Labeling sugar as honey is fraud afterall.
I see you are an exporter from Brazil. What is the current color profile of the Brazil honey you represent? With Brazil's huge growth potential, do you foresee that profile changing? I have heard there are diminishing amounts of white coming from both Brazil and Argentina, and much of that white will go to Europe.
Sheri

[JohnLaurino]

Most of brazilian honeys are LA, I would say 50%. 20% ELA, 15% white and 15% amber or darker. I think such distribution should stay stable in the next years. Brazil is set to be an exporter as large as Argentina, it is a question of 4 years or less. Argentina transformed huge areas into soy plantations in the past 3 years. This pushed beekeepers to areas where the climate is adverse to the bees almost every year (dry). I think Argentina will have hard time to export 85,000 tons of honey as they were used to do until couple of years ago.This year they did 45,000 or so. That's why white honey prices are skyrocketing. Because the exchange rate advantage the german traders took the majority of production from Argentina. Same happenned with mexican output. As crops in Canada and US were also very bad, US packers are just desperate for white honeys what explains current pricing.

About the funny honeys : the cost of circumventing is increasing every day. Sooner or later I think we will see more people being charged and behind the bars. Presently I see that honest importers and packers are still depressed because the industry chain is completely disrupted by the crooks.

[jean-marc]

Sheri I agree to a point that without a buyer there would be no market. I don't think it's the packers role to police what comes out of china.

The reason I point the finger at china is because a very large percentage of "funny honey" if not all of it comes that country. It is after all a communist country so I think much of the policing work should be done by them not american or canadian packers. I'm hoping that china is approching that point. With so many alarm bells going off in regards to chinese honey it must be getting increasingly difficult to operate for them to be able to access the US market. I'm pretty sure they have some other card up their sleeve, I can't really imagine what it is. In any event it'll be interesting to see when they play it.

Mr Laurino: Bom dia.

Jean-Marc

[JohnK and Sheri]

Sheri I agree to a point that without a buyer there would be no market. I don't think it's the packers role to police what comes out of china.
Well, I think it IS their job to police what they bottle. It is called quality control and they sure inspect our honey and run our honey through a battery of tests. If they don't know what is in the Chinese honey it is because they don't want to.

I agree that circumvented honey and the blends is a customs responsibility. Some countries are making it more difficult to use them to launder their dirty honey, and the blends labeling somehow needs to be addressed. But here again, with the "blends", are these sent in without an order? Does the customer pay what "honey" should go for? Perhaps a little less due to the ability to come in without the tariff? IMO, a lot of people are blinking at the right time.

Yes, I am hopeful that China will address these issues as well. Their credibility is being called into question and certainly can hurt their access to the markets through punitive actions such as implemented here in the US. Those actions turn into a bad joke when there is no enforcement, not only hurting us here, but the beekeepers, packers and exporters trying honestly to compete with these bad actors.
As for who should enforce the rules, usually that comes down to who is negatively impacted the worst from non-enforcement. So far, that has been first, the North American beekeepers, second the packers. But in truth, the world beekeeping industry is effected. Should China clean up it's act? Absolutely, but until they do, we need to cut them off at the borders.


I'm pretty sure they have some other card up their sleeve, I can't really imagine what it is. In any event it'll be interesting to see when they play it.Jean-Marc
Well, the fact they hold a dangerous amount of our debt doesn't help. The mitigating factor is we are their biggest customer, but the more we limit access to our consumers the less attractive that debt is.
Sheri

[Ian]

Argentina has planted a huge soybean crop, and they are getting rains. The cropping news is that the crop is off to a great start, and they are expecting rains through out the rest of the growing season due to the change in the ocean currents.

How will this affect the honey pricing here? Soybean will not give them a white honey, but will give them honey to sell.

[jean-marc]

The acreage that has been dedicated to growing soybeans previously had pasture. Apparentlyn the pasture had clover which produced more honey and whiter honey. This coupled with the drought dramatically reduced honey production.

I would think that after 3 years of drought, colony numbers must be down and the overall shape of hives should be poor. I would think that even with good conditions it will take them at least 1 season, perhaps more, to get back on their feet. 3 years of drought must rattle your nerves and break your confidence. They probably don't have a whole bunch of cash to throw at their bees.

Invariably the packers will say bumper crop or lots of honey in Argentina in an effort to suppress prices.

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

from http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

2009-11-04

ARGENTINA- A LARGE AREA IS AFFECTED BY DROUGHT
Paradoxes of climate. While in Entre Rios producers rush to impulse the evacuation of cows due to the flooded of Parana river, in a vast region of the humid pampas are praying that the rains come. At least 40% of the Pampas region continues to face a situation of severe drought. Ten million hectares of arable land in the country are affected by the drought, a total of 30 million hectares. According to Cesar Rebelo, director of Climate and Water Institute of the National Institute of Agricultural Technology (INTA) Castelar, the most affected areas are in central, west, south and north of Cordoba, north of Santa Fe, Chaco, southern and western Buenos Aires, La Pampa and Santiago del Estero part.


2009-11-05

ARGENTINA- WEATHER FORECAST FOR THE LAST QUARTER OF THE YEAR
Conducted by the National Weather Service.


2009-11-08

ARGENTINA- HIGH TEMPERATURES AND LACK OF RAINS, ARE DESTROYING THE CHACO PROVINCE APICULTURE
The journalist specializing Federico Petrera (s) interviews Mr. Carlos Villavicencio from Juan José Castelli in the province of Chaco, who says that due to the high temperatures melt the hives, besides the loss of live material by drought conditions, which has made the current crop fail



After our summer, and or what one might call the last 6 months of seasons, I wonder what is called normal or seasonal weather, it was 18 Celsius (64.4 degrees Fahrenheit )here yesterday.Bees were out flying, nothing for them to get, but every nice day now shortens the long winter

[irwin harlton]

Argentina production doesn't bother me as much as the possible increase of honey production in Brazil,their subsidies and increasing production capability.....Eucalyptus and year round honey flows




http://www.docstoc.com/docs/13829070/Caio-Eduardo-Zanardo-and-Jose-Maria-A-Mendes-Filho--VCP-Brazil-%282%29

[jean-marc]

I've been visiting Brazil for the last 7 years and you are right Irwin, this is definitely where the next major competition will come from. The area where I've been at is mostly small and sideliners, in the Northeast is where a lot of the production comes from. Apparently they as a nation are gearing up. The bees are somewhat fiesty but in my limited time there I've not seen the horror stories you hear about.

I visited a research station that has been selecting for honey production good temperament and a lower swarming impulse. They've been doing that for 30 years now. Those bees were manageable from what I saw, but they were not harvesting honey. They had varroa but no medications were used to control them. I was able to stand beside 5 frame nucs in shorts with no veil and that was not possible when they started their breeding efforts.

I would hate to have to work those bees in 90 F weather with a high humidity factor, 2 sets of coveralls on, as a northener it would kill me and most others I know.

The good news is labour is relatively cheap, so is land and beehives. People are mostly kind and I think it would be a nice place to live.

Jean-Marc

[ArtD]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-fri-honey-1030-oct30,0,7537759.story?track=rss
Notice a $250k fine and maybe 5yrs for $4 million. Sounds like a deal to me.

[Bens-Bees]

Only if he manages to stay out of China. The Chinese govt. would probably execute him at this point (not for doing what he did, but for getting caught).

[irwin harlton]

Heard from a reliable source that a major Canadian buyer has dropped his offering from 1.60 to 1.50............... all part of the game packers play., this will make his 1.60price offering 2 months down the road loOk really good( so he thinks), HE must have got enough at 1.60 to last him awhile and enough to blend into his Argentina honey to lighten it up .Maybe he was getting a little flack from his US packer friends over his higher price offering .I have this feeling that gold is not the only commodity that is going to soar within the next couple of months,white honey is sometimes referred to as liquid gold when in short supply and its definitely in short supply

[123456]

Heard from a reliable source that a major Canadian buyer has dropped his offering from 1.60 to 1.50............... all part of the game packers play., this will make his 1.60price offering 2 months down the road loOk really good( so he thinks), HE must have got enough at 1.60 to last him awhile and enough to blend into his Argentina honey to lighten it up .Maybe he was getting a little flack from his US packer friends over his higher price offering .I have this feeling that gold is not the only commodity that is going to soar within the next couple of months,white honey is sometimes referred to as liquid gold when in short supply and its definitely in short supply

Irwin, you western folks need to get a warehouse in Ontario. There is a good demand for honey among smaller beekeepers here. At 5-20 barrels at a time it is selling for $1.80 lb CASH!

[jean-marc]

123456:

I have honey, don't need a warehouse , just need a truck to put it on and a check, it's really that simple.

Jean-Marc

[123456]

123456:

I have honey, don't need a warehouse , just need a truck to put it on and a check, it's really that simple.

Jean-Marc
I know a couple of dozen guys that move about 50 barrels a year but they are not beekeepers. None of them buy it by the truckload and a 'check' is a dirty word.

[John Smith]

Honey Packers are not 'bad' people. They are having as much trouble making a living out of honey as we are. They just look bad to us because they are next up line and are the ones paying us.

The best and most workable reason why they put the price back down is that they know as well as we do that putting the price up will not produce any more honey, not in the short term. And if your bank was threatening to foreclose on you, would you be worrying about the long term state of the industry?

If they were really 'bad' people, we could get rid of them all (perhaps overnight), by simply refusing to sell them any honey for twelve months. The reality is, however, that the bank is breathing down our neck too, so we play the game. The glucose makers will do well filling in where we leave off, assuming they can get some wheat.

It is you guys who bother to market your own honey who are winning. The convenience of sending it all off on one truck to one packer is fatally habit forming, and those who persist with that one pay the price in the long term. Honey prices are great, at the retail level and the small wholesale level too.

There is not enough honey in the whole world to warrant anyone doing big advertising, promoting and really selling honey. There hasn't been enough to warrant that for maybe 30 years or more. It is only the public who can (AND ARE NOW) pushing the price up, so we the producers need to promote our own product in our own locality. We do that part better than anyone else, anyway, as the public love a good bee story.

All the people between us and the consumer in the supply chain will never promote honey, nor will they gain anything by trying to push the price up. They only eke out a living by increasing their volume, which is pretty hard to do these days (with real honey, anyway). However, they will all come on line as quick as a spreadsheet recalculates its bottom line once the demand is in place and the supply can match it.

Inflation being what it is, any product must keep pace with it or perish. Honey has had its moments to surge ahead and catch up with inflation and is overdue for another one. Inflation being what it is (again), makes it doubly hard, however, to actually keep up, as like osteoporosis, inflation eats away at the very bones of our civilizations until they collapse.

There are always those who contentedly cry "GREED" when we mention pushing the price up, and good luck to them. If they have supplemental income, a working wife or a good inheritance coming, they are OK. But to get more honey produced we need to consider the young fellow, with a pregnant wife, no farm, no truck, no hope. If he cannot get a few beehives and start capitalising a business, then the industry dies and civilization as we know it goes down with him.

So we must fight to keep pace (as much as humanly possible) with the constant failings of our currency. This present shortage is the best opportunity we have had for 30 or forty years to make that work. If we don't push up our prices now, who can say when again the opportunity will present itself?

The bee underpins the very foundations of our civilization. If saving the whale can attract billions of dollars, there must be plenty out there too for the bees. I want my part of it, and you deserve your part of it too. But as long as we are happy to lie down and die silently, there are plenty of others waiting to take over the microphone.

So we can change our perspective on honey packers by becoming one ourselves!

What are they doing about the price of honey? What are YOU doing about the price of honey? You had it first!

Cheers,

JohnS

[Bens-Bees]

I think we do our own selves in by not setting our own prices a little higher. We have a quality product, and we should treat it as such.

[jean-marc]

123456:

Whether the fellows you know purchase a truckload at a time or not is unimportant. Somehow it's gotta get to them, hence trucks. If they have a hard time paying for honey or think check is a dirty word, I now understand why they have a hard time sourcing honey.

Jean-Marc

[John Smith]

Uh, um, oooo.
Jean-Marc, check is a dirty word to the vendors, not the buyers.

How much gold did you buy yesterday and pay for it with a check? Not much, I'll bet.

The SgtMaj has it right. We shoot ourselves in the foot when we let other people tell us what our very worthy product is worth.

Maybe all North American beekeepers are young people, and I show my age by remembering some things of yesteryear, but here in Australia, lots of beekeepers got stung when a honey buyer went bust.

In God we Trust. All others: please pay cash.

When I part with real honey, I want real money in return. Why should that be considered immoral?

Cheers,

JohnS

[JohnLaurino]

John,

We have the same situation all over the world, it belongs to the nature of business. As far as I know the packers are very much necessary elements of the chain, they manage different levels of risks which beekeepers or coops would not be able to sleep with. Also, they have the capability of regulating the market as long as they are able to blend different types of honeys from different countries in order to fulfill the needs both of the retailers and industrial users all over the year. The industry faces a big issue with the "glucose" makers who are flooding America with a product that everybody knows comes out from assembly lines, not from hives. This is what is disturbing the whole market ALL OVER THE WORLD, not only America. On the top of this we have the economic crisis and the consequent apreciation of the dollar. Thus, we are living in a not friendly world and it is normal people to get more defensive and bitter. During difficult times the concept of supply chain is naturally more questioned but, from my point of view, should be more protected and improved. Our common enemy, the glucose guys, are as strong as the russian winter. We all may take years to overcome this issue as we will need support and coordinated efforts from different governments and authorities. About the formation of prices I have to say there is only one type of price I know, the doable price. There is no expensive nor cheap honey, there is the honey that you can sell or not in a given moment. If all beekeepers in North America decided to not sell anything to any packer during one year, the price of honey would skyrocket all over the world. This would make beekeeping more and more attractive for brazilians, uruguayans, chileans, viets, indian, aussie, mexican, kiwis, etc. In one or two years the production of honeys in other countries would be greatly increased and prices would then start to accomodate at lower levels. This is the history of the brazilian honey exports. Until 2002 we were not exporting significant volumes. It was the chinese crisis (when chinese honey was banned in EU) that gave the external push up to the business. In 2001 I was happy selling light amber @ USD 0.45/lb and had to fight to get buyers. Because China's problem, pricing then move up to USD 1.20/lb. The excellent price of honey motivated increase of production not only in Brazil but also in India, Vietnam, Chile, etc. As a result we had the price collapse in 2005-2006. I sold brazilian light amber in 2006 as low as USD 0.43/lb. In 2009 brazil will be the biggest foreign source of honeys to USA. It is the market !!!
The good thing for less developed countries like Brazil and Vietnam is that the governments realized that beekeeping can be a good tool for generating income in poor rural areas. So, presently there are official programs dedicated to educate and form beekeepers and improve thye quality and the yield of the hives. In other words, these countries are now established as important honey players and will gain share as the time goes. Argentina will be always an important player but you can be sure they will not be the largest exporters in very few years. By cultural reasons latin american people see honey much more as a medicine than as a food, the per capita consumption in Brazil is less than 100 gr. So there is a huge market to be explored in Brazil, Argentina and all countries in South and Central America ! By the way, we welcome foreign investors !

Cheers from the honey broker/

[123456]

123456:

Whether the fellows you know purchase a truckload at a time or not is unimportant. Somehow it's gotta get to them, hence trucks. If they have a hard time paying for honey or think check is a dirty word, I now understand why they have a hard time sourcing honey.

Jean-Marc

Who said they have a hard time sourcing honey? In fact they are much sought after by producers.

[jean-marc]

123456:

Just assumed that if you suggest to Irwin to purchase a warehouse down east that it was perhaps because those potential buyers were having difficulties sourcing honey. Apparently not.

Jean-Marc

[123456]

John Smith;

'Check' is a dirty word for all parties involved, as is receipt. There ia a LOT of honey bought and sold that doesn't show up in statistics. As you pointed out, depending on packers is a fools game. Lots of smiles in 04' when they were paying $2.30, lots of tears in 05' when they were paying $0.85.

As long as producers sit and wait for their phone to ring, things won't change. Sadly we're a year or two away from $0.85 honey again.

[123456]

123456:

Just assumed that if you suggest to Irwin to purchase a warehouse down east that it was perhaps because those potential buyers were having difficulties sourcing honey. Apparently not.

Jean-Marc

Just pointing out a possible marketing approach for larger producers. Billy Bee will always sell a barrel or 10 or 20.

[irwin harlton]

http://skamberg.com/



Honey Update:

November 2009

Raw honey prices are still very firm. A smaller than expected USA crop, coupled with a lack of surplus raw honey in the world market have kept prices strong. Some available raw honey in the world market is being held for better pricing. At the same time, demand has been very strong from the consumer level through the food service and industrial levels. U.S. packers also struggle to compete for honey on the world market with the US weaker dollar versus other world currencies.

U.S.A. - The California raw honey crop was very poor, with continued drought in that state. Raw honey from the Southern part of the U.S., which produces much of the nations Light Amber honey, was also short. Very cool, wet conditions in the Upper Midwest (which produces most of the honey in the U.S.) reduced the crop substantially. The final 2009 crop numbers are not in, but some have projections indicated at 15% below last year's crop of 161 million lbs.

Canada - The weather was also very cool and wet in Canada. Their crop will be comparable to the U.S. in diminished production. Canadian honey prices usually parallel U.S. prices and are actually higher so far this year.

South America - Projections for the Argentina raw honey crop are dismal as drought continues to be a factor. Brazil, which produces almost year round, should be in better shape, but as Europe competes more and more for that honey, those prices remain strong.

India - India's crop is just starting to come in, and offerings from there are few. Demand for this honey will be high. Conditions are favorable for a good crop, but competition will be heavy and prices will be strong.

[irwin harlton]

No where does the above commentator talk about rising prices
Prices are"firm" and "strong".......I hate to admit he's right but I have to agree with him
However he is a large food broker closely tied to one of the largest US packers, Sue
I think his US honey crop estimation is a little high, but maybe Kim Flottum's is a little low.

"Some available raw honey in the world market is being held for better pricing. " I would say a lot of honey is being held off in anticipation of better than current prices.The packers know this.

Firm and strong prices at www.marketnews.usda.gov/portal/fv Phone: 202-720- 2175 FAX: 202-720-0547
www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf,........ No, I call it low balling the market

[suttonbeeman]

Now that you've mentioned Sue I have never ever been able to figure out why anyone would be a member of sue! Whats the benefits? You call and a truck comes to pick up your honey and leaves empty barrels. whats the down side? well where do we start....First off they retain 10%(if my memory is right)of your crop for 10 years for operating capitol. ( THis may have changed as I havent checked in 8 yrs)So If you produce 100 barrels of honey after ten years sue has 100 barrels of you honey(100k$$) that you could use to buy equipment, pay off debt, send your kids to collage or draw interest on. Now I realize interest rates are low now but historically will cost you 8-12 % for operating loan. Then you get paid X% on delivery, some more 60 or 90 days later and the balance use to be about a year. So a year later you got your money less 10%. So lets compare apples to apples. Packer "A" pays you in 30 days....sue pays over a long period of time less 10 %. When interest was at 8 percent back about 8 yrs ago I figured YOU were 10 cents a lb in the hole if you were a coop member.
Now for the biggie WHY on earth would a growers COOP import honey from CHINA? How do you support US producers doing that? If you read the articles in honey laundering in the seattle times(google seattle times honey laundering) Sue denied they imported honey from china....then admitted when he traced a container from china to sue that they "sometimes" found chlorophenicol....a give away as to chinese honey. If he (reporter) could figure out where the honey came from dont you think any packer could if he wanted to? According to my sources there were numerous comtainers of chinese honey sitting at Jacksonville port a few months ago headed for Sioux City Iowa. I dont know what packer but I do know of only one there to my knowledge! When a grower coop buys this crap..well why would you want to be a member? I think we need a new coop!!

[jim lyon]

Never have been a Sioux member but our family has been years ago. We got out for many of the reasons that you mentioned. As far as importing honey particularly honey of questionable quality the reasons are quite simple, they have a market for it and it improves the bottom line of the coop .......... at least in the short term. I know that power has always tended to reside with a few there but all members should not be afraid to speak up and let their voices be heard, after all it is a member owned cooperative.
I will throw out one more little caveat that you may or may not have considered. Your retains (that they hold interest free) represent your stake of ownership in the company, a company that has considerable assets. In this day and age of fewer and bigger it is hardly out of the realm of possibility that a large food conglomerate with a large distribution network and efficiencies of scale far beyond what Sioux can do as a stand alone company could make an offer that can't be refused. In that case what would a 1% stake in a say $100 million dollar sale (Burt's Bees, I believe, sold for 180 million) be worth hmmmmmm.

[irwin harlton]

Everything in this world seems to have its place,..... even Sue selling Cheap Chinese honey to increase the bottom line for its members.It would have to have been unadulterated,not contain antibiotics( They test) and would or will be cheap, I heard such a commodity exists but is rare
Good old Sue and Beemaid here in Canada sometimes have a hard time retaining their membership when prices soar and the open market gets crazy ( occurs once every 13 decades or less) These price peaks are relatively short lived and members flock back to the security of the co op........can't say I blame them for the risks are high.This trade seems to have more than its fair share of crooks , but security always comes with a price.

Someone, John Smith I think from Australia, also pointed out in the Skamburg blurb that the wording" lack of surplus raw honey" was used instead of shortage. Shortage entails rising or higher prices usually.....they certainly don't want to convey that concept , it just might get some world producers thinking about what their product is worth when there is very little to be had

[mike farms]

why slander the hand that feeds irwin sioux is the largest most respectable packer in the world....just because doemstic honey supply is 30% higher in price then imports there has to be something wrong. I have been in manufacturing overseas in many different industries and its pretty similar across the board. Cheaper labor = cheaper prices. Gasoline in the sadui arabian peninsula is under a dollar a gallon and here in NA its almost $3.50 why???

[suttonbeeman]

Two weeks ago pepper honey in fl offer from a florida packer was .90. This week 1.35. Pepper is not I repeat NOT a bottling honey!

[irwin harlton]

honey offerings in Canada continue to fall, we are are at1.40......I think very little will move at this low balling price, but this will certainly lower these buyers average cost if any is sold at all.
Canadian honey imports for 2009 are up 22% from 2008 ,up to August 2009..... so apparently they got lots of foreign honey to sell,blend

From Bee Culture magazine ,nov. 2009,November price report and 2009 crop estimate.

"This will undoubtedly lead to increases in imports to meet demand, and, with available overall global honey on hand at best average,there will be some probably dramatic price increases.
If you have honey in a tank somewhere this Fall...guard it carefully and sell it cautiously."

Canadian honey broker is quoted as saying that there is so much cheap ,adulterated,imported honey on the US east coast, packed into warehouses that the entire US East coast has sunk and it may actually disappear into the ocean.......prices are reflecting this

"why slander the hand that feeds irwin sioux is the largest most respectable packer in the world."
I was not slandering, the sale of cheap Chinese honey by Sue,it benefits Sue bee's bottom line, their members and most important their customers,this honey is probably going into their industrial market and giving their competition a good run for their money in this market.This industrial market is a major influence on all prices and sets the price for the packed market and the price you and I will receive for our product. Sue selling,Why not, everybody else is doing it, but it clearly will be "good " Chinese honey. Sue has been assessing the Canadian honey market for whats available for export

[irwin harlton]

(img)http://s43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/buzz1356/?action=view&current=peak_honey_chart.png)(img)


world honey supply is on a slippery downward slope

Yes feLLow beekeepers ,we have surpassed Peak HONEY world production,just like peak oil, the only place for prices to go, are up and prices will be better than just good.


Q : What happened to Brazil's honey production as a result of the introduction of killer bees?

Brazil went from fourth in world honey production to twenty-seventh by the early 1990's.

[jean-marc]

We have passed peak honey production, well maybe , maybe not. I'm wondering how Mr or Mrs. Hubbard came up with the graph? At this point I'm not convinced.

Brazil is trying to gear up so is India and a whole bunch of other countries. As prices rise then countries that have a low yearly average all of a sudden see beekeeping as profitable/attractive.

Jean-Marc

[mike farms]

irwin most of the chinese honey in america is used for industrial purposes that why no one really cares too much....are you going to go up against General Mills, Kraft Foods and all the deep pockets that Sioux is selling to. Take all of Suiox honey off the shelfs at your local supermarket and send it to applica gauranteed almost all of it will not pass.....this is the world we live in. Money rules all!

[irwin harlton]

Jean Marc, I hoping the prices coming in the new year will make you a believer......if someone is paying a 1.30 for pepper, what SHOULD white honey be selling for...Not a 1.40, I thinks, but I have to agree higher prices will bring higher production from these countries... and as usual reduced world prices.

In the mean time we gotta play the packers game....... I was just pointing out that world supply has dropped, it is way short of demand in the Peak Honey theory.Dropping or suppressing prices will only lead to a overly higher price down the road.This latest 1.40 price is a ploy to make their next offer look real attractive and they didn't get enought at 1.60 so they use the old we are in control drop the price play.

Not really understanding these new people at Billy Buzz, they definitely don't have the same banker the last owner had, he bought honey in vast quantities and sold it, packed and bulk,all over the world,not just Canada.Beemaid has squeezed them in wally world( rarely on my local shelf) and I wonder where else, their pack is darker than the competitions and suffers granulation problems I hear.New packing plant problems maybe?

[jean-marc]

I'm pretty sure we will bew seeing higher prices in the new year. It's interesting to see the lower prives now. My feeling was many beekeepers had not sold at 1.60, hoping to get more. I don't think they'll be getting much at $1.40.

Has world honey production dropped? I'm not sure. India and brazil are gearing up so is Vietnam. I'm not convinced that the world honey production has peaked. That would mean that world honey production has dropped off in the last few years. Any recent drop off in total world honey production could be explained by odd weather patterns.

At today's honey price I don't too many people will get very excited. I can't really imagine the guy with 1000 hives going to 2000, nor can I foresee someone with 2000 going say to 5000. The prices are too unstable and usually too low from a producres point of view. I can see guys replacing some older stuff but not really gearing up. On the other hand if prices were double what they are today and if producers kinda knew that prices would stay there for 4-5 years then there would be a lot of incentive to produce honey. I can almost guarantee that if those conditions existed than total world honey production would increase. There would be incentive to produce. From where I sit it doesn't seem to exist today.

Jean-Marc

[knorm]

Hey guys - I think this $1.40/# talk is not realistic. I just had offers this week for $1.45 and $1.55 can (delayed payment) for white honey picked up, and the buyers are calling me. I think at least some of the packers are getting short of honey.

[irwin harlton]

The only thing unrealistic was the 1.40 offer to buy, being made at the Alberta beekeepers convention.........funny the price is going up......none or very little was sold at this low end offer, as the offer did not exist for long

Re: Peak honey or is it Peak cheap honey.The latest world honey production figures, that I can find are for 2004


•2004 Honey world production is about 1.3 million tons. Six countries concentrate 50% of the total. In the last decade, there has been a slightly growing tendency. Asia is the main producing continent, followed by Europe and America in the third place.

Continent % Tons
Africa 11,2
Central America and Carib 1,2
South America 10,0
North America 13,2
Asia 38,3
Europe 23,3
Oceania 2,7


•2004 World exports are around 350 thousand tons. Argentina participates with just over 20% of the total, taking the second place as exporter, after China, and escorted by Mexico, which is in the third place. Argentina competes with China for the price and with Mexico for the quality. .noted that the imported honey coming to Canada and USA comes from a wider range of countries , usually different from year to year

Production has dropped in USA for last 10 years.Argentina's 2008-2009 crop was down 30%. There were droughts in China and Mexico in 2009,dropping production in both countries. World honey production especially if you consider production in the largest honey exporting countries has to be down, but by how much?

A little history from 1997 -98

U.S. honey production in 1998 from producers with five or more colonies totaled 220 million pounds, up 12% from 1997. There were 2.63 million colonies producing honey in 1998, up slightly from 1997. Yield per colony averaged 83.7 pounds, up 9 pounds from the 74.7 pound average for 1997. Prices for the 1998 crop averaged 65.5 cents per pound, down 13% from 75.2 cents in 1997.

Historically, beekeepers have produced honey that was graded and priced at the market. Producers knew the attributes that the grading system used, and provided samples to potential buyers. Basically, producers always had to take the price offered, and most marketing decisions centered on when in a crop production cycle to sell. Supply and demand were seen as driving the prices, and producers recognized that periods of high supply would likely lower prices and low supply would likely raise prices. Moreover, it was assumed that some relationship existed between the price of the commodity and the price the consumer paid at the retail level.

Over the past two decades honey has become a global commodity, and regional or even national supply fluctuations no longer drive the market. In addition, the relationship between the commodity price of honey and the retail price of honey has become very small. In early 1999, the spread between the retail price of honey and the commodity price of honey became historically large. At the same time, the demand for honey in the U.S. market increased. This same paradox has affected many other farm commodities. Some producers have tried to adjust to the market by cutting costs and increasing volume. Another approach to marketing is to seek niche markets. The theory is that one can find attributes for the commodity that will make it specific, and that consumers will pay more for those attributes. For honey these can include creamed honey products, comb honey, marketing honey from specific floral sources, value-added products, and packaging that identifies the product with a specific region.

As honey packers become fewer and larger and honey trade on a global scale increases, regional and national supply and demand may become even less useful in predicting market prices. Producing bulk honey, offering it for sale and accepting the price offered is currently not providing an adequate return to producers. Most beekeepers enjoy working with their bees but do not enjoy marketing. Unfortunately for those beekeepers, all indicators point to creative marketing as the best opportunity to enhance profitability in the new millennium.

I think at today's prices for bulk honey there is a huge difference( 1.50 verses 5.00) between the bulk price and the shelf price ( good opportunity here to pack your own and make good money, IF YOU HAVE THE MARKET) and currently a vary low price paid for industrial or bakery trade honey....this industrial market (SUPPLIED BY LARGE PACKERS) price must rise and lift the bulk white honey price with it

[suttonbeeman]

While I still have honey to pack and sell to my retail customers I sold the last of my honey that I will sell bulk this week. 70 buckets @ 2.25/lb in their bucket.

[John Smith]

Congratulation to you Mr. Suttonbeeman!

If profit is the objective, produce less, retail more!

Cheers,

JohnS

[irwin harlton]

Argentina outlook not good




From http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm

Google translation( not the best)


Between January and October 2009, local honey exports fell 21%, although the value of products shipped increased 8%, with 45,964 tonnes shipped au $ s 2739 each. Also according to data from Senasa same period in 2008, had dispatched 58,392 tonnes by 2542 u $ s each.

In fact, the next downhill since 2005, the year the country shipped more volume: 105,940 tons. The following year was 99,208 in 2007 80,437, and last year totaled 69,086 tons.

According to Sebastian Muñoz, coordinator of the Commission Beekeeping Federation Agraria Argentina, the debacle is influenced by several factors. Is that the drought came in a context of huge decline in yields, because the bee leaves the hand of livestock (bees feed on the flowers in the pastoral livestock Yuyito), but the estate is run every time farther north, displaced by soybean and glyphosate.

Without pollen, bees produce less honey, which is their food, and supplement required, which reduces quality. "Today the business is not viable: we give up 15 to 20 kilos, and 17 to 18 kilos of cost. Calculate, because there are no official statistics, nearly 7,000 producers of honey (about 20% of those enrolled in the Renap) left activity, and the hives were lost, "said Munoz.

To make matters worse, for fear of taxation, the vast majority of beekeepers do not enroll in the Renap. Munoz estimated that in total there must be some 90,000 beekeepers in the country (three times the bleached), and this, together with the disappearance of official statistics from the conflict with the field, not aid diagnosis or to the solution. "In Santa Fe when the emergency was declared, appeared to recover from all sides, all had hives," criticized.

Above, the change of status from the Agriculture Ministry of Secretariat left the sector without partners to discuss the strategic plan, which is financed with 50% of export taxes (5% for honey and 10% for fractional the bulk product, as will the vast majority). "The $ 22 million for the strategic plan are supposedly in the bank, but the field bee is no longer under the Food. The industry is not represented in the Ministry, do not know whom to talk."

For the specialist, could be generated, for example, a government project to split, thereby increasing value added, and also help the younger ones, who do not have the capital to fill nas move north with the cows.

(Cuenca Rural)

[John Smith]

My comments on this paragraph in the apitrak report:

“””””””””To make matters worse, for fear of taxation, the vast majority of beekeepers do not enroll in the Renap. Munoz estimated that in total there must be some 90,000 beekeepers in the country (three times the bleached), and this, together with the disappearance of official statistics from the conflict....................”””””””””

Beekeepers and fishermen, belong in the Hunters' and Gatherers' classification, as they are the foundation stones of any economy. Farmers and Graziers are in the next layer of bricks in the edifice known as civilization. Gold miners are in that mortar there somewhere too.

Governments of all eras and persuasions have drawn a line above a certain level of commerce and declared all above that line as taxable, all below that line exempt. For instance, in Australia, babysitting is not considered a taxable income. Neither is gold mining.

So it isn’t the size of the industry, nor is it the moral or human value of it, it is more about the impossibility of controlling, policing and defining. Some goods and services are just so primary they defy governance. A tax on air, or if you like, an emission trading scheme, may also fit in there somewhere. How do we prove a person actually breathed in and out? And was it as halitosis or flatulence?

If two thirds of Argentina’s beekeepers are below the tax line through whatever contrivance, wouldn’t you think the government there would go ahead and declare the business tax exempt? Perhaps there is some pressure on the industry as a result of the economic turmoil of the past decade in Argentina? Are the beekeepers under pressure to get bleached? And is the government withholding their own statistics in an effort to avoid confronting this issue?

I read that ‘bleached’ word to be a corruption in the translation. Perhaps it should read ‘audited.’ In the Spanish, it might have been sanitised, or cleaned. I think those beekeepers simply have failed to get 'registered.' In Australia we use the term, Seasonally Adjusted. In other words the raw data has been groomed up a bit to simplify it and put the desired spin on the conclusion. But when we know the official data would belie our intended conclusions, we like to use estimates, and expert assessments.

When governments everywhere get serious about promoting any activity like beekeeping, their best move would be to declare it tax exempt. But, no, so far they only want to hand out pallatives at their own discretion. This always fails in the long run, especially with the primary industries, as they are the ones underpinning the whole edifice of society. The fall of the USSR being a current example of this failure. So the more we give the beekeepers in handouts, the more we have to take off them next week to cover the loss in transit of the cash. In other words, the activity is not sustainable. Simply too much cash is lost to ‘administration.’

Charities and tax exempt foundations are required to spend a minimum of 6% of their intake doing the actual job mentioned in their charter. Unfortunately governments are under no such obligation. If governments spent 1% of what they take in looking after the edifice of civilization, especially the very foundation stones, beekeepers and fishermen would be the richest people in the system.

The cumulative effect of ignoring these issues only creates a bigger correction when it does come. Gold is at the moment highlighting that phenomenon.

Commercial Fishermen are under enormous pressure now for the simple reason of overpopulation of the human and depletion of the ocean’s fish. A situation like that is not easy to fix. However, honey production in the overall sense has unknown limits, given the correct encouragement. More honey remains in the forest than what is taken out, as all beekeepers understand. It is only the way we manage the issue that limits how much honey we can produce. And the more primal the honey source, the more sustainable it is.

If honey were tax exempt in more ways, especially ones that encouraged big business to participate in the industry, if the general public were encouraged to value honey, and if honey were to be lifted to its rightful level on our priority list, there need never be a shortage again. Unfortunately this easy a result does not exist with ocean fish and fresh water for agriculture. Honey is as transportable as gold is, nearly as time proof, and a hundred times more valuable for food and health, but no, mankind prefer to develop substitutes and imitations, and thereby limits the potential of the entire edifice of civilization. Everything must be cheap. Give us bargains. To hell with tomorrow.

Honey production is tax exempt in China although I do not know just how this is brought about. Oh that Western Cultures were so wise!

However, in the more immediate sense, the longer we postpone a paradigm shift in these attitudes we apply to honey, the stronger will be the wave that ushers it in. That paradigm shift will come about eventually. It could be brought about by a positive move; it could be brought about by a tragedy for our civilization. Only time will tell.

No economic advantage for honey, no pollination. No pollination, no abundance of food. No abundance of food, no big cities. No big cities, no civilization. We will be back to the hunting and gathering stage real quick! Well, the survivors, that is.

Happy Beekeeping!

JohnS

[Bens-Bees]

No economic advantage for honey, no pollination. No pollination, no abundance of food. No abundance of food, no big cities. No big cities, no civilization. We will be back to the hunting and gathering stage real quick! Well, the survivors, that is.

Well there is still the economic advantage of pollination contracts. Although honey production has traditionally always been the backbone of beekeeping economics, I think our business is changing to the point that eventually as much as 80% of our revenue might come from pollination.

[alpha6]

As long as the packers keep importing more and more honey and keeping the price low for US honey producers I think the only way commercial guys can cover their costs is through pollination. That is the problem is that the price of honey is kept low by importing cheap, crap honey from who knows where and the packers and those rats at the National Honey Board who are in bed with them don't care if it is tainted honey...it's about money not quality. So until we institute standards throughout the US and really go after those crooks who are selling the swill to the American people I don't see things changing much.

Ok...rant over. :rolleyes:

[Bens-Bees]

We could just adapt to the changing market conditions.

[123456]

Pollenation isn't an option here. I went from 1600 hives and depending on whatever the packers would offer me to 500 hives and selling my crop for $2.75 lb (cough, cough, CASH, cough). Lets face it, beekeeping is one of the very few industries where there is little or no effort from the producers to marketing their product.
Personally, I'm not willing to let the tail wag this dog.

[Birds&Bees]

until we institute standards throughout the US and really go after those crooks who are selling the swill to the American people I don't see things changing much.

The key word is "we", it certainly won't be government agencies such as the USDA or the FDA, these departments are staffed by former members of the food industries they are supposed to regulate, essentially large food companies can now regulate themselves as they see fit through the veil of government regulatory agencies, giving the consuming population the illusion that the food they are purchasing is safe and healthy. We need to educate the consumers about the food they are buying. The honey market will only change with consumer demand. If they want cheap, they'll get adulterated honey, if they want quality, they'll open their wallets.

[JohnLaurino]

To Birds&Bees: <added by mod>

This is the very TRUE. We know efforts are being made in various fronts, including official ones and this may take years and even so results may be not sufficient nor effective. The key to fight the assembled sweeteners sourcing is to include the quality of the honeys in the public agenda.

this needs to be done very carefully otherwise it may damage the whole industry , bad and good companies. #challenge.

[irwin harlton]

Not only does the ACTUAL shear volume of this swill kick down and hold back the price of good honey ,I think some buyers are stating there is a lot more swill around then there actually is, ..............funny how the price is stagnated and not much difference between all those packers......but then the import figures for rice syrup ,ultra filtered,packers blend swill do not match what is reportedly being told to us to exist in warehouses, perhaps a new circumvention is being used and hasn't surfaced yet.....this I doubt.

Canadian honey imports for 2009 are up 26.3% over 2008 up till Oct 1,2009, a total of
$14,561,583 ,VALUED IN CANADIAN DOLLARS,from a total of 53 different countries.

Don't know what that dollar figure would be in lbs but it would be in excess of 10M lbs,if average price was 1.40 /lb... somewhere around 1/5 up to 1/4 of Canadian production for 09.I am sure a lot of the imports are less than 1.40/lb so the poundage goes up accordingly

Stats available at http://www.ic.gc.ca/sc_mrkti/tdst/tdo/tdo.php?lang=30&headFootDir=/sc_mrkti/tdst/headfoot&productType=HS6&cacheTime=962115865#tag

keyword search or code is 0409 honey natural

Because Canada is A NET EXPORTER OF HONEY( we produce more than we consume) FOR EVERY LB WE IMPORT WE MUST EXPORT THAT MUCH MORE

[Wee3Bees]

We have talked and talked and talked (or written and written and written) about why honey prices should be higher and that they ought to go higher in 2010. The market is set by the packers. :scratch:

Let's just revolt and 1) not sell any honey until the packers beg us to buy it from us at $3 a pound (okay, I couldn't hold on to my honey without selling it either; I'm not wealthy or a bank), or 2) spread propaganda around that says so and so just sold his/her honey for $2.25 a pound and the packer was willing to go as high as $2.50+ in the next 3 months... :eek:

Maybe if we start brainwashing people into thinking that prices are $2.50 per pound in the drum, then they will start believing it (perception is reality).

Or, I just thought of a number 3) producers can collectively hire a hypnotist (sp?) to go around North America hypnotizing all of the packers to start buying honey at $2.50 per pound for resale...then $2.75, then $3.00 per pound, etc. :lpf:

Then we can all chip in and buy an island, like, say, Australia and enjoy retirement! :D

[Skinner Apiaries]

Could just form an "american" honey coop, and smear out sue. I mean... Americans WILL pay premium for American product. Too bad most of my honey goes to latinos and arabs. haha

[DigitalBishop]

Could just form an "american" honey coop, and smear out sue.

That's the best idea I've heard yet. Refuse to sell to sue. They'll have to import more cheap, crap foreign honey. Sue shrugs it off until they're not selling honey because the word is out that they're selling crap (not that the average American knows what quality honey is until they're re educated about it, easier said than done) or the world supply is in a dearth and they're forced to come to terms.

Didn't I read that Sue Bee started out as a coop? If so, then isn't it supposed to benefit its members so that they could make a living? Apparently they've wandered away from that if they're still considered a "coop".

Re education takes marketing and money. Something that everyone has been crying is in short supply. The marketing that the AHB has been doing? Zilch, I've seen no comercials or attempt of any kind to promote American honey. If they do any at all, it's to no benefit of any honey producers. It's all done for the biggest packagers.

So what if producers do form a coop to go against Sue Bee and other packagers. What kind of response could we expect?

[JohnK and Sheri]

Please try to keep your posts to the point of the world honey market and prices.
Thanks,
Sheri

[irwin harlton]

Mid US honey hot line 763 658 4193

Report dated Nov. 15, states honey moving at1.50, 1.52 and 1.55.......9 loads sold from S.D.
"white honey is in short supply"
Canadian producer in eastern Canada offered 2.10 (no volume mentioned)

Hardly what I would call "short supply prices", non the less the trend is upwards.

[Trevor Mansell]

I just sold a load of Brazilian Pepper ELA for $1.30. And I was happy to get it.

[Beeslave]

Mid US honey hot line 763 658 4193

Dated Dec. 6th. 2 loads out of Oregon for $1.75 lbs. 1 of those loads went to Canada. It doesn't say if seller or buyer was paying for transportation. I think we will see in Jan./Feb. how high it will go.

[jean-marc]

Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm Ron Phipps latest report december 09
just a short part here

When a study is made of the dramatic changes in export patterns over the past 7 years, and of the productive capacities of newly emerging honey exporting countries, stark aberrations appear. We can compare U.S. imports in 2009, 2008 and 2001 from several countries as follows:
Country 2001 2008 2009 (9 months)
(million pounds)
India -0- 27.8 23.2
Malaysia -0- 9. 12.
Indonesia -0- 4. 8.7
Taiwan -0- 3.2 8.2
Thailand 2.7 2. 3.
China 41.4 24.7 0.1
Source: National Honey Report
The changes are not merely quantitative but qualitative. For example, some tropical countries are exporting vast amounts of “white honey,” which is very difficult to find in the latitudes where the countries of origin are located, barring some botanical “miracle.” We note that in 2009, 100% of the honey imported from Indonesia is white and 42% of honey from India is white. Import values indicate prices much lower than white honey from Canada, the United States and Argentina. Published reports from Indonesia indicate that consumption of honey in Indonesia exceeds its production, which provides only 30% of its needs. Similar reports exist from Malaysia and Mongolia.
The phenomenon of blending or falsely labeling products is contributing to the confusion. Numerous trade samples have been evaluated and found to be either blended from several origins or ultra-filtered honey, which the FDA holds to be illegal to sell as honey. It is clear to all members of the honey industry that many emerging honey exporting countries do not have the technical capacity to ultrafilter honey, nor any economic reason to suffer the expense, even if they have the capacity. And yet huge amounts of this product are being offered to U.S. buyers.
It is interesting to note that the price of Chinese white honey imported into the United States in 2008 averaged $0.22/lb. (less than $485/MT), according to the National Honey Report. Canadian white honey imports during the same period averaged $1.41/lb. Chinese honey prices reported to Customs in 2008, were 30% lower compared to 2001, when the antidumping case was effected. The unbelievably low valuations, no less the subsequent transshipments, have taken the sting out of the antidumping rulings of the
6
U.S. Department of Commerce. Chinese honey imports decreased dramatically from 25,000,000 pounds in 2008 to zero in 2009.
It would appear that the availability of extremely cheap Chinese honey worldwide has contributed to the 2-tiered price structure for honey which has persisted and increased throughout 2008-2009 in the United States, and that honey laundering continues unabated until today. This phenomenon has aroused concern among American beekeepers and American honey packers throughout the country North to South, East to West and all regions in between. If honest members of the industry are to be left standing, a timely and comprehensive solution to honey laundering is imperative.
During the period March-August, 2009, domestic and imported honey transactions were 29% and 71%, respectively, according to the NHB. The consumers clearly need imported honey to complement domestic production. But the industry

[The Honey Householder]

Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?

Jean-Marc

Hey, Look even the Canadain like cheap US honey!!!!!
There is still those beekeeper that have to sell off the're crop to pay back the banks loans each year you know.

[irwin harlton]

Now isn't that interesting. Wonder why someone would buy honey from Oregon destined for Canada when there is honey left in the country?

Jean-Marc
Reply With Quote

Hey, Look even the Canadian like cheap US honey!!!!! lol Packers are the same on both sides of that border

Strange things happen in this bee buissness, and even stranger things in the honey industry.
Maybe this could be explained by no honey was available in Canada at or below this price...........or some nice packer needed some really good fireweed to blend with some swill
Imports from USA are up over 2008 but I think they are packed honey and or bakery industrial semi loads going to specialty markets.( no doubt at ultra cheap prices)

[jean-marc]

If I were buying honey at $1.75/lb US and if I had to pay freight, I would not be calling it cheap. I'm not sure what the exchange rate is on the dollar but say there is another 10 cents maybe even 15 cents more, then we are looking at $1.85-$1.90 Cdn. The freight 's the tricky part because if it's FOB, I think there is still plenty of honey around that would go at that price.

If it was a high quality fireweed honey then I would not grumble about the price. I don't know of anybody around here who got any, so $1.75 US is Ok. I for sure would not blend it with any other honey though. For those who don't know fireweed is a very white honey that is extremely slow to granulate. The flavour is mild. It is quite popular in these parts of the world but because of different logging practices it's a little harder to get nowadays.

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

I know of buckwheat honey selling in Manitoba for 2.40/lb, in small lots, to small packers
The price of 1.90Cad, plus freight for one semi load of fireweed sounds kinda low, depending on alot of factors.....probably more buckwheat around than fireweed? These are rare and specialty honey's commanding premium prices......I think all real honey is special and should be selling at more than what is being currently offered

[irwin harlton]

http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com/ Google translation ( not great)

Rains in Argentina are providing beekeepers with potential of a much better crop, than what last years crop was.

But you can't count nothing till it's in the drum.......even then the exchange rate of honey to money is quite often not that good......but I hear it is getting better on the US side of the border

[JohnLaurino]

It is certain the world will have a better crop not only in Argentina but in various other important honey production countries, including Brazil. This combined to the still unstable economy recovering (credit shortage) plus the continuing flow of adulterated/circumvented honey which is destroying the legit industrial honey field in US (also in place in UK , France, Spain, The Netherlands, etc) will drive prices down, except for the white color honeys.

India offers legit LA @ USD 1.08/lb delivered to American ports. Argentina offers LA combined to ELA @ average USD 1.25/lb FOB and buyers both in Europe and USA are not paying too much attention to it. I am selling from brazil LA @ USD 1.13/lb FOB and ELA @ 1.21/lb. :cool:

I dont think this is good news for most of you but it is what will happen according to my crystal ball which has been more right than wrong in the past 10 years. :lookout:

[irwin harlton]

Reading from American Bee Journal, dec 09 issue, pages 1127, 1128, "honey prices"

"In real terms,it can be seen that honey prices have declined overtime at a rate of about one cent per year" .......So shouldn't the price be for white honey over 2.00 /lb USA ?

[irwin harlton]

John Laurino your crystal ball may be a little cloudy

taken from http://www.honey.com/honeyindustry/

XXIX - #11 Issued Monthly December 15, 2009
HONEY MARKET FOR THE MONTH OF November, 2009
IN VOLUMES OF 10,000 POUNDS OR GREATER UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED
Prices paid to beekeepers for extracted, unprocessed honey in major producing states by packers, handlers & other large users, cents
per pound, f.o.b. or delivered nearby, containers exchanged or returned, prompt delivery & payment unless otherwise stated.
- REPORT INCLUDES BOTH NEW AND OLD CROP HONEY -
(# Some in Small Lot --- +Some delayed payments or previous commitment)


Prices paid to Canadian Beekeepers for unprocessed, bulk honey by packers and
importers in U. S. currency, f.o.b. shipping point, containers included unless
otherwise stated. Duty and crossing charges extra. Cents per pound.
Province Not Reported –
Too Few to Report
Prices paid to importers for bulk honey, duty paid, containers included, cents per
pound, ex-dock or point of entry unless otherwise stated.
Argentina
Mixed Flowers white $1.49
Mixed Flowers extra light amber $1.36 - $1.49
Brazil
Mixed Flowers extra light amber $1.34
Mixed Flower light amber $1.16 - $1.22
Vietnam
Mixed Flowers light amber $1.12 - $1.14

Also at http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm

shows current prices paid per kilogram to Argentina keepers for extra white honey for export
I see no downward trend in any prices of any honey

[wildbranch2007]

according to the financial network yesterday(one analyst) the price of sugar will double in 2010. also china has allready released large amounts of sugar from reserves. brazil and india will have smaller crops this year. this will definitely impact your inputs if you feed sucros, what will it do to the honey prices??

mike syracuse

[irwin harlton]

National Honey Board has revamped its Web site, http://www.honey.com/

Quotation marks are taken from the board minutes of April 23, 24, 2009

"consumer-friendly navigation, and the need to beautify the Web site. She noted that
industry materials and information will stay on the Web site, but with less emphasis."

They only meet 2-3 times a year and then they approve the minutes of the last meeting hence we are in big time lag.

Seems they also dropped some interesting stats on honey imports, ie: four largest importing countries and average price paid to those importing countries............oh well it has been maybe decided by the Board that it is best we don't know this?

"both import and domestic assessments, as both are substantially
down for the first quarter. There was extensive discussion about the issue."

Definitely a shortage of honey........dropped 0.3M from the proposed budget

"By several measures, AC Nielsen and the PTS, retail sales of honey increased in 2008."

I would be more interested in 2009 sales , are they up, down or stagnant



"Moved by Charles Kocot, seconded by George Hansen and carried to change Strategy
1.4.1 to read "Support industry efforts to maintain honey purity,” and Strategy 1.4.2 to
read “Support industry testing methodologies to improve quality assurance as needed""


Don't worry about purity anymore, we packers will just test to assure quality as needed


You can address any concerns you have about the Web site to Andrea Brening
| andrea@nhb.org | (303)776-2337

[suttonbeeman]

I am wondering if anyone has read the latest issue of the ABF newletter. According to it(and what I've been told by those who know)a major packer with a good reputation(I question this at least in my opinion) and well known name was(is) importing honey from china labeled as less than 50% honey for bee feed. According to the article evidentually less than pure honey went in the in door and us grade a honey came out the out door. This is going to play out shortly accordingly and I expect a few hot beekeepers, some could loose alot equity if the Govt really puts down the hammer. This has allowed them to circumvent the tariffs and honey board fee which is more than a few pennies. MIght be time to form a new coop!

[The Honey Householder]

The way the market is going, I think the beekeeper are better off with out the coops. Maybe this was an off year for the small beekeeper. I wholesale all my tonage to the smaller beekeepers that are tell me there sales are up 20% this year. I'm sorry if the beekeeper can retail all their honey locally for a good price why wouldn't they.
As you can see the big packers don't need our honey. The people are getting educated slowly about what they are really buying in the stores.

IF YOU WANT REAL HONEY, BUY IT FROM A BEEKEEPER.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks to all those beekeeper that sell my local honey!!!!!

Wish you all a Marry Christimas!!!!:banana::popcorn:

[Bens-Bees]

I wholesale all my tonage to the smaller beekeepers that are tell me there sales are up 20% this year. I'm sorry if the beekeeper can retail all their honey locally for a good price why wouldn't they.

This is just my opinion, and as such it is likely wrong; but in my opinion, if someone is retailing their honey, and they sell out prior to the next extraction, they are undercharging for their honey.

[suttonbeeman]

Ron I wasnt serious about a new coop....was throwing some rocks! Sgt Alot of beeks didnt have a crop at all...bad year. DIdnt have any to sell at any price. Plus you can build a good market faster than you can increase bees even if you are selling at 15-20/qt if you are in the right area.

[Bens-Bees]

Yes, and getting surprised by higher demand than you guessed is one thing, going back and selling again in the same market at the same price the following week/month/year is another thing.

[John Smith]

Funnily enough, most supermarket and big brand name packers tell us honey is hard to sell. Is there a chance these people really don't want to sell honey? If anyone knows of marketing campaigns anywhere in the world, could we have a report on it?

The higher people climb the ladder in all organisations, the more they seem to be against honey, and this includes honey co-ops. And as far as getting the price up to a level that stimulates production, the beekeepers are the ONLY class of people who want that, and it would appear even some of them don't.

Real people buy real honey. More and more of them are attempting to source it direct from the beekeeper too. They don't seem to mind paying more for it either, and why should they? If they want real honey make them pay real prices.

If beekeepers want to survive, they have to go around the system and serve their customers directly. The system people PREFER to sell substitutes, as they are far more profitable.

Cheers,
JohnS

[123456]

Overestimating the importance of honey will just contribute to the boom and bust cycle. I have a friend that manages a large national grocery store. Honey is on the shelf for 12.50 a kilo. Sales are down 80%. He told me matter of factly that customers won't pay that for honey. Multiply that by the 1,000's of grocery stores in Canada alone.

Of course as we all know, (and certainly have seen in the recent past), this will lead to packers offering .80 in a year or so.

Sure, there are people that will pay 12.50 kg for honey. Unfortunately you run out of those customers in a hurry.

As beekeepers we somtimes can't see the forrest for the trees. If honey is demed too expensive by the consumers, they'll live quite fine without it.

123'six months til the new crop'456

[The Honey Householder]

This is just my opinion, and as such it is likely wrong; but in my opinion, if someone is retailing their honey, and they sell out prior to the next extraction, they are undercharging for their honey.

As a comm. honey producer, my problem is always under selling. Everyone wants there money back at the end of the season. It's worst then playing the stock market. When is a good time to sell? I sold a load last Feb. for $1.29 a lb. The price at harvest time this years was $1.65-$1.70. Finished extracting on Sept. 15, and was sold out around the first of Oct. In 30 years of business I have never sold honey that fast. Since then I've had big packer that nornally buy from me calling. I haven't told them I was sold out, just keep dragging them along. They just keep quoting prices, and I just keep telling them to low.:D I would like them to know how it feels to be on the other side of things.:no: The beekeepers pulled though for me this year, and that I am thankful for.

Happy Halidays to all!!!!:banana::banana:

[Ian]

>>Sales are down 80%. He told me matter of factly that customers won't pay that for honey.

I hear the opposite,

>>Of course as we all know, (and certainly have seen in the recent past), this will lead to packers offering .80 in a year or so.

Ya, but the other bigger factor is honey coming out of the southern hemisphere.
Packers are still paying 1.5$ cnd for the honey, the ones buying right now anyway.
Time will tell what we will see in prices for 2010.

with the market now, little snips of news moves the market
with the market now, solid factual production reports will swing the market
time will tell

[Beeslave]

A WI packer only offering $1.44 lb. for ELA(10 drum load). I deliver. I have been getting $1.60 lb to $1.70 lb(depending on color) on 1-5 drum lots picked up.

[123456]

Packers aren't offering much because a high shelf price is killing their retail sales. When honey becomes a luxury as opposed to a staple we all feel the effects.

Beeslave, networking is the way to go. Beeks that need honey to keep their customers happy gladly pay 20-40 cents a pound more for the convenience of not having to buy a truckload.

[suttonbeeman]

I dont think the store shelf price is killing their sales as much as the crappy tasting liquid they call honey some are putting in a jar! Prices on the shelf are not too high ether in Ky of Fl. 1# jar at wally world around 3-3.79 dollars. I went in WalMart in Fl two weeks ago and there was NO i repeat NO honey on the shelf, totally empty. I asked the cashier and manager and both said it was selling like crazy..coming thru register constantly! couldnt keep it on the shelf. I told them they need to be selling my honey and they would sell even more!

[deknow]

I dont think the store shelf price is killing their sales as much as the crappy tasting liquid they call honey some are putting in a jar!

ding ding ding....we have a winner!

we have the NHB telling customers that all honey is the same, and the NHB is run by those who benefit from buying the worst honey possible at the lowest prices, and is hurt by superior honey selling for premium prices directly from the beekeeper to the consumer. do you want to support the NHB? do they support you (no, they use the cheap supply of inferiour imported honey to lower the price they will pay you).

so, is your honey the same as some of the crappy supermarket product? should you be competing in the same market with that stuff? is the NHB working in your interests?

what we need to work against is the idea that honey is a commodity like refined sugar. good honey is special, and will only be treated that way by the customer if it is treated that way by the producer.

deknow

[sqkcrk]

what we need to work against is the idea that honey is a commodity like refined sugar. good honey is special, and will only be treated that way by the customer if it is treated that way by the producer.

deknow

Right you are deknow, but I sure hope all the beekeepers that I know don't take to bottling and selling honey, or I won't be able to make the meager income that I do. There will be too much competition.

[deknow]

well there is a two sided coin here. part of the problem is first convincing a potential customer that what they think of as honey is not "good" honey.

at least in our neck of the woods, the county fair honey competitions are all about looks. the judges will give all honey the same score for taste (unless there is a noticeable off flavor), leaving crystailization, bubbles in the glass, and fill level as the major critera that people are competing over....with different classes for different sized jars and colors of honey.

imho, this is just plain stupid. it furthers the agenda of "all honey is the same", which is exactly what local beekeepers who compete in these things should be working against!

if more of the large commercial beekeepers did bottle and market their own honey, they would be more concerned about quality and taste rather than color...or at least their bottom line would reflect their concern.

once people start to realize what good honey tastes like, the bar gets raised, and better honey is available, the demand grows, and the price goes up.

fwiw, this isn't just some abstract economic theory, it is how we run our business, and it works. we only sell honey that is produced without treatments and without artificial feeds, and we get a lot of interest in our "story"...but what sells the honey is the taste.

deknow

[Barry]

once people start to realize what good honey tastes like, the bar gets raised, and better honey is available, the demand grows, and the price goes up.

This is exactly the same as beer. Unique brews from all over the world demand a price that is usually 2, 3, even 4 times the price of the average beer (Miller Lite, etc.) sold here in the States. There is no comparison in taste, which is a reflection in quality, care, and unique elements of any given location that the beer comes from. I agree, local honey needs to be elevated to the place it deserves to be.

[Ian]

>>Packers aren't offering much because a high shelf price is killing their retail sales. When honey becomes a luxury as opposed to a staple we all feel the effects.

You may be right, as your friend suggest. He sell the honey retail, so his perspective is relevant.
The perspective from a packer I deal with is not as gloomy with their sales. In fact they are the same if not up from last year, as far as I would understand.
For argument sake, they definitely dont have a reduction in sales by 80%.
Their tone towards the price of honey wholesale is movement is slow, but still trading.
One particular substantial trade was above 1.5$/lbs wholesale.
Their look on the honey market place is bullish, basically because of poor north American crops and small inventories in South America, but the watch is on the upcoming south American crop, their production WILL influence the market one way or the other.

My hedge would be take the 1.5$ now.
Historically this is a good price.
you will have next years crop to deal on if the prices rocket , and if the prices plummet, you will have already taken the good price when was there,

[Ian]

I hear what your saying John,

I know you already realize the commodity of honey is also just that, a commodity,
one way to market that commodity is to value add,
the other way is to market it though packers who add the value,
your not going to get away from the overwhelming fact that the value of the packer is crucial to the honey industry.
we as beekeepers cant possibly manage the packing capacity that is needed to market the overwhelming crop we produce. That's why we sign up contracts with packers to provide the service for us.
And because we trade internationally, we will aways have the influence of foreign honey, and world honey trade. It is a commodity.

I strongly agree with statement on the whole adulterated honey situation and honey substitutes. But not all foreign honey is adulterated.
We have to realize that

[123456]

I'm a better marketer than beekeeper :rolleyes:, and that is because of dealing dirctly with the end consumer for 30+ years. Of course we all take pride in producing a quality product. But quality is a very subjective term.

I had a lot of treefoil honey this year. I mean I was filling barrel after barrel with yellow honey. One custome told me it was the best honey I've had in 5 years. Couple of hours later, another customer said the honey wasn't as good as last years. So I guess I'm not sure if I produced a quality honey or not this year :scratch:.

Sadly, most customers are not honey coniseurs. If it's not foul tasting, then it's fine honey.

[sqkcrk]

I hafta disagree.
If my honey is 'the best' with a blue ribbon from some county fair to prove it, how do I buy 20 barrels from a neighbouring beek to meet my demand? Do I tell my customers that it is inferior honey to mine?

There's a big difference between honey promotion and self promotion.

I don't have award winning honey. And yet I know how good it is because my customers tell me that it is the best honey that they have ever tasted. That is part of the reward of selling all of my honey in jars instead of barrels.

I don't sell honey, I sell Squeak Creek Honey.

Do what you do best and what you enjoy doing the most. If you enjoy keeping bees and producing honey more than you enjoy marketing honey then sell your honey to someone who enjoys selling honey and is good at it.

[Wee3Bees]

What's the latest price for light amber and white? Keep in mind, I'm not looking to sell my excess honey as my retail business is growing (at much higher prices than $1.40 per pound), but I do have some extra between now and the summer.

I had an offer today for 5 barrels at $1.40 for light amber from a small commercial beekeeper looking to help out some of his customers that were out of honey. My impression is that $1.40 is low since they are the ones that don't have any honey left. I'm expanding my outfit from internal splits, etc. this year and it will cause me to produce less than I would like.

If I sell them 4 or 5 barrels, then I'm concerned that I'll be short this time next year with my customers. So the question is what is the current price (picked up at my dock not shipped)? Since, they called me I would expect to be paid around $1.50 to $1.60 Light amber.

Also, I guess that I could provide the honey now with the understanding that it is to be replaced during this spring's harvest from the commercial beekeeper's operation (I'm a sideliner) so I don't go short in the future... you know, good will, etc.

Any thoughts?

[Beeslave]

I spoke with 5 packers in and near WI this last week. 3 wanted honey and were offering $1.42(30 days)-$1.48(90 days) per lb for ELA and $1.38 per lb and up for LA. They would supply shipping.

[John Smith]

Wee3Bees, forget the goodwill. There is about as much honesty in the honey business as there is in gold bullion. Go for the 1.60 or no sale. It won't rot! When you run out there are plenty of them out there waiting to supply your customers, and when the producers are out of honey, there is little hope that anyone else will have an spare! And yes, if you ring them they will add on fifty cents. So if they ring you, add on fifty cents. It really is simple arithmetic, aye?

Your provisioning for your own faithful customers will pay off in the long run. A year is a long time, and a year without a crop is an eternity.

Cheers and good luck. If the first buyer doesn't want to buy it, the last one will!

JohnS

[JohnLaurino]

In 2009 Brazil exported 26,000 tons of honey, app 65% to USA. Average price for US was $ 1.16/lb FOB US ports. This includes both conventional and organic honeys of all colors. In 2010 Brazil may continued to present a growth in the produced and exported volumes so sales to USA may be at least 19,000 tons.

[JohnK and Sheri]

John, could you provide a percentage breakdown on color profiles coming out of Brazil, ie how much white, amber etc??
Thanks,
Sheri

[JohnLaurino]

You ca get color volumes @ http://www.fas.usda.gov/gats/ExpressQuery1.aspx by selecting the HS code group 0409

[suttonbeeman]

Look like the price of honey has dropped since first of Yr. Pepper now being quoted in Fl at 1.15 down from 1.30. I was told at ABF meeting that a HUGE amount of CRAP honey had came in and pushed down price. Seems from what I've been told only two of the large Packers are not packing this crap(chinese honey that may or may not be pure but is labeled at less than 49 % honey and avoids tariffs ect and is coming in at under .35/lb declared value) Also from my information from a reliable source is that the packer who in the media has been referred to as bringing in less than 49% honey labeled as bee feed in the back door and pure honey going out the front door just happens to be beekeeper owned! GREED!!! One of the most respected packers when it comes to pure honey told me that a few years ago McDonalds wanted US light amber honey, then were they allowed to use light amber but no chinese and the latest deal from what I was told is that as long as its says honey on the cover and is light amber thats all that matters! So I guess alot of kids will hate honey when they taste that crap. BUT McDonalds cuts cost, packer makes a profit and comsumer/beekeeper suffer. The mind set of big chains now is to totally disregard quality of the product, buy it as cheap as you can regardless if it has something in it or how bad it taste and make your profit. Big business and greed are what has got this country and beeks in this financial mess! GREED GREED!!

[Joel]

Of course we all knew this was going happen. I was ready to give up driving 500 miles a week to sell honey, be home on the weekends, increase hives and sell more wholesale.

Is it safe (not that safe is the best choice of words maybe) to assume the chinese honey is ending up in the food industry aspect where the taste and quality is hidden or is there a sense this getting sold directly to consumers for table use? The food industry must do testing and know this stuff is coming in under the wire right?

[Roland]

Joel, I have good reason to believe that some of the trans-shipped "honey" is going directly to the grocery store in jars, blended with other honey, or not. I believe it is Mt Sutton(correct me if I am wrong) that agrees with me, that the first step of marketing is to re-educate the new generation as to what REAL honey tastes like. Some days I feel like a drug pusher. Most of the time , once they buy the first jar. they are hooked.

I do not see the trans-shipped "honey" as competition. I will not try to compete with it. Rather, I try to show the consumer what they have been missing for so long.

Roland

[John Smith]

No, Roland, you are not off topic. You are spot on.

Maybe it is the beekeepers who need to understand that they are selling real honey at imitation maple syrup prices!

The Kiwis quit letting the big buyers bad mouth their Manuka honey, started creating their own market for it, and now they get big dollars for it. The same goes for the Tasmanian Leatherwood honey. I don't doubt it applies to myriad other honey types worldwide, especially the Sidr honey from Yemen.

The big honey packers will not promote your honey. Why would they want to waste money promoting a product they are having enough trouble keeping up with as it is?
Then when push comes to shove, they will sacrifice each of us for the sake of their own neck every time. If it takes dilution, they will dilute. If it takes turning a blind eye, they will turn a blind eye.

Honey is on the shelf in my supermarket marked, 'Contains imported and Australian product.' No percentages, mind you. For all one would know there might be as little as ten percent of real honey in that bottle.
Cheers and happy wholesaling!
JohnS

[sqkcrk]

When i start selling, i'm going to put on the label 100% Pure honey no corn syrup added.

May I recommend that you just leave it at 100% Pure Honey? That says what it is. Any mention of "no corn syrup added" would just throw some folks off.

[sqkcrk]

Joel, I have good reason to believe that some of the trans-shipped "honey" is going directly to the grocery store in jars,
Roland

Jack from Mann Lake said that a couple of years ago. It costs the same to send a container of empty jars to America as it does to send a container of full jars. Do the math.

[deknow]

i can't read "no corn syrup added" and not think of the NHB's recent propaganda.

is that "no corn syrup is present in the honey" or "no corn syrup added to the honey after extraction"?

deknow

[Joel]

I like your upbeat attitude Roland and for me, Mark who I know and consider a friend and many others who sell direct I guess we have to look at this as an opportunity. It's hard to think about how many people must try this ultra filtered low grade "sweetner" and see honey on the label and it's the last jar of honey they'll buy. That's what burns me. I bought a jar in China Town just to see what it was a year or so ago. Thin, tasteless, nothing that even hinted honey to me. Threw the rest away. Of course we all have those customers who say tney don't like honey, get a taste of the real stuff and become addicted. Word of mouth there is our best ally.

Bad enough still this stuff goes into our beer and our honey cerals though, I thought of it out there on the shelf ruining the good name of real honey. I guess it truly is a world economy and may the "Best" product win.

[deknow]

i'm really happy to see this discussion. in addition to the chinese imports, there is of course _some_ domestic "honey" that is basically hfcs feed run through the bees and extracted.

seems to me that beekeepers that focus on producing quality honey are in a bind. the NHB wants the consumer to see all honey as the same (their contention that honey from the farmers market is exactly the same as honey from the super market), producers and importers of low quality honey want all honey seen as the same.

who's interests are served when beekeepers DON'T educate their customers (and the public at large) about such issues? perhaps this is a worthwhile campaign for local bee clubs?

one thing is for certain, producers of a quality product must go against the NHB and differentiate their product from the bad stuff. this cannot be done without badmouthing _some part_ of the beekeeping industry.

deknow

[suttonbeeman]

Roland there is a packer up in your neckof the woods that I hear is using trans shipped honey adn some are putting rice sugar in it....not a good test for it, so thats something new! You are right we have to educate our customers, however the dad thing some people never get to talk to a beek and kids that eat this crap will not know what "GOOD" honey taste like and may never eat honey again.

[StevenG]

It all comes down to marketing, doesn't it? How we present our product, how we provide information to educate people who might buy our product. Plus samples... label comparison with what we sell compared to the Big Boxes... Most folks don't read the labels, until it's pointed out to them. Doesn't seem like honey will sell itself any more, we have to make the case for it, for OUR pure product.

[sqkcrk]

Bad enough still this stuff goes into our beer and our honey cerals though, I thought of it out there on the shelf ruining the good name of real honey. I guess it truly is a world economy and may the "Best" product win.

Saw a Food Network Show on honey in food. Why aren't most products that use honey labeled "Corn Syrup Cheerios"? All of the items that they showed being made w/ honey had 50 to 100 times more HFCS than honey. The up side is that HONEY is in the publics eye where it wasn't in the past. Which is sorta free advertising for us.

[Ian]

Just wondering , how exactly is honey suppose to taste?
I produce some of the mildest honey on the planet, I have many buyers
I also produce amber honey, and sell onto the market,
I also produce dark honey, and sell onto the market,
I also produce buckwheat honey and sell onto the market,

So tell me, how exactly am I to move all my honey produced if the consumer expected all my produce to taste as the mild honey?

All I am saying, there is a reason why we blend honey. They blend it lighter, and they blend it darker. Its all marketed by scale,

[sqkcrk]

" seems to me that beekeepers that focus on producing quality honey are in a bind. the NHB wants the consumer to see all honey as the same (their contention that honey from the farmers market is exactly the same as honey from the super market), producers and importers of low quality honey want all honey seen as the same.

who's interests are served when beekeepers DON'T educate their customers (and the public at large) about such issues? perhaps this is a worthwhile campaign for local bee clubs?

one thing is for certain, producers of a quality product must go against the NHB and differentiate their product from the bad stuff. this cannot be done without badmouthing _some part_ of the beekeeping industry."

I'm not in a bind. I sell a good quality product. People who buy it tell me so. I don't try to educate them about "the bad stuff", unless they bring the subject up to me.

I don't have anything to do w/ the NHB, except to use the literature that I have left. I don't have to differentiate my honey from the bad stuff and I don't have to badmouth anyone else, competator or not.

Squeak Creek Honey speaks for itself and so should yours. Sell your honey.

[Roland]

Ian - with all respect, you have illuminated my exact point. I purposely show my customer that this honey, what ever it is, is unique, and will not taste exactly like any other honey. Similiar maybe, but not exact. Culture their tastes. Had some Wild Cherry Tree honey this spring. I had never tasted anything like it. I sold it on how unique it was, and found several people that liked it best.

There is a parrellel(sp?) in wines. Do you want to sell a "jug wine" that always tastes the same, or a varietal that reflects the local variations in flora and climate? Anybody can blend to create a bland product, but only you can provide a local product with distinction.

Roland

[sqkcrk]

Roland, your post is exactly what Kim Flottum spoke about at the ABF con. His point was "Call it what it is." Make it unique and attractive to your customer so they will come back to you for that honey. Also date it. Such as "Squeak Creek 2010 Buck's Bridge Bamboo". Sell honey like wine is sold and at a similar price.

Good on ya Roland.

[123456]

Wine is enjoyed for it's stand alone taste. Honey is primarily used in conjunction with other foods, thus altering it's flavour somewhat. I don't see any comparison at all.

Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.
There doesn't have to be a choice between education and listening to what they want.
I usually have several different varieties for tasting, and since it is not the generic honey they might be used to from the grocery store, I encourage them to sample each one. The customers LOVE this.
Many customers, once they realize there ARE differences, buy several different "flavors". Additionally I now have customers asking for a particular variety every year.
Sheri

[sqkcrk]

Wine is enjoyed for it's stand alone taste. Honey is primarily used in conjunction with other foods, thus altering it's flavour somewhat. I don't see any comparison at all.

Instead of 'educating' customers, try listening to what they want.

One can develope and expose to customers food pairings. Which honey goes well w/ which food or in which food. Such as a product that I saw at the ABF conference. "Cheese Honey", this honey goes well w/ cheese. Other examples would be perhaps Honey X goes well in your tea, honey Y goes well in bread baking, honey Z is a good honey to use in BBQ sauce, etc.

Sure, listen to what they want. But if they don't have an idea that you could do something w/out someone suggesting it, shouldn't you make the suggestion? It couldn't hurt.

Sell your honey. Tell people that it is good. Tell them what it is good for and with.

For those of us who bottle and sell honey to stores or where ever, how many of you sell a sample pack, a set of small bottles of different kinds of honey? I'm thinking about doing this. I bet it would sell well at Xmas time.

Have you ever thought about marketing honey at each holiday season? Valentines day Honeys for your Honey? Just thinking out loud. Sorry.

[Ian]

>>Ian - with all respect, you have illuminated my exact point. I purposely show my customer that this honey, what ever it is, is unique

I agree, I sell alot of honey house honey for the exact same reasons that have been stated here,
but I sell alot of the milder honey, no sunflower honey and some buckwheat honey.

As a commercial beekeepers point of view, we have to be extremely hard how critical we are of the packing industry. Set side the debate of foreign adulterated/strained/diluted honey.
Look at one of the issues being stated over and over again here. Blending.
If it were not for blending, I would get paid more for my white, less for my amber, and very little for my dark. My packer will have to run 5-6 different packs just to keep consistency in thier many product lines and cost would rise overall.
Bottom line, less for me.
If I have a bad year of beekeeping and I collect alot of amber and dark honey, I will be out of luck when it comes to selling that honey.
Blending not only helps keep consumer spending habit, it also streamlines production, saves costs and provides a larger market window for the beekeeper to sell their honey into .

Let the small packers take the niche market with variety honey,
let the larger packers handle the volume.

Our packer explained to us the bear bones of variety honey.
the money simply isnt there for a large packer to cover cost.
Dollars and cent, contracts and customers

[wolfpenfarm]

You know what, the average consumer doesn't know they are spending 3.85 for that bear bottle of honey and it isn't even pure honey. It says honey on it and it doesn't even have on its label that it isn't pure honey. Anyone that would give you 60% honey and 40% corn sugar is a thief when they do not disclose that the corn sugar is in there.

You can buy honey from producers at 5.00 -9.00 a pound depending on the type of honey. Thats still cheaper than watered down honey in wally world.

IF your saying honey x y or z is better in a b or c product, your advertising there is a difference in x y or z honey. Thats a different story.

I definately agree with you on the marketing ideas.

[123456]

Perhaps it's unique to my circumstance, but 95% of my customers just come in, stock up on honey and go on their way. They already seem to know how to use it to their liking.

[StevenG]

123456, it sounds like your customers are already educated! :thumbsup:
As I grow and try to expand my market, I run into people who know the value of what I sell, and want it. Others don't understand why my honey is worth more than supermarket honey, which frequently isn't pure, but a blend with HFCS or some such.

Part of my "education" program is to explain how my honey is produced different from the supermarket honey, and why that makes it more healthy. Also I like the look on their faces when they read the supermarket honey blend label for the first time, and discover it isn't pure honey. They see the word "Honey" and think it's pure. For example, one day at the local Wal**** I decided to read the label on the steaks my wife was getting ready to buy. Needless to say, beef wasn't the only ingredient. We haven't bought beef there since.

While I don't want the person who wants to pay 99 cents for a pound of blended sweetner labeled 'honey' as a customer, I do want MY customers to know what they're getting, and why it's good for them. By doing this in a tasteful, non-threatening way, I'm hoping to expand my customer base. And if they show one of my brochures to a friend, yep! I'll get another customer! :applause:
Regards,
Steven

[123456]

StevenG

I think what I was trying to say earlier in this thread (but did a poor job of it) is that those folks that buy 'honey sweetner' from grocery stores will be
90+% of your customer base. Selling honey to people who care about honey is like shooting fish in a barrel.

If you want to expand to sell 10's of thousands of pounds I think you'll find that the vast majority of your sales will be due to:

Price, location,convenience.

When I say 'listen to the customer' I'm saying the majority buy honey from stores. Gate sales don't amount to a drop in the bucket in the honey industry.

Folks who want to sample 5 different types of honey are already sold, you're wasting your time preaching to the choir.

The trick is, how do you convince people who don't give a **** about 'quality' honey to stop at your honey stand. And believe me, you'll need thousands of them.

[ACBEES]

My inlaws invited my wife and I to taste some bread made with ARTIFICIAL HONEY :eek:. I looked at the label on the bottle of artificial honey.....bunch of chemicals I had a hard time pronouncing. The funny thing is, it had the same amount of carbs/serving as a label for real honey.

We declind to taste the bread being the true blue beeks we are. Why in the world would anyone want to buy artificial honey and ingest a bunch of chemicals which each tablespoon full???

I too am trying to expand my local market through education. One of the local restaurants serves honey clearly cut with HFCS. Hopefully I'll have a good crop and get them on board this year.

StevenG to add to your comment about the beef.....I'd give anything to be able to find a chicken in a grocery store that wasn't injected with a "flavor enhancing" solution that made up as much as 15% of the weight of the package of chicken.:(

[deknow]

mark, i respect your viewpoint here...without a doub the best way to deal with a problem is to be too busy making money to make it worth your time to even notice it is there :D

i want to make sure you understand that the NHB spends the money it collects from first handlers that go through more than 250000lbs of honey a year (a penny a pound) to tell the public that there is no difference between imported/heated/blended/tainted supermarket honey and your honey. we know that _some_ supermarket honey is lousy, and it's irresponsible (at best) to equate that with quality product.

i'm not advocating "badmouthing" someone because they are a competitor, i'm advocating telling the public the truth when they have already been lied to.

...and i don't think i'll ever get over the NHB spending a million dollars co-promoting the bee movie...as AN EDUCATIONAL FILM!

deknow

[Roland]

Ian - I understand your point. We all have different "rows to hoe". I do not think we could get amber honey here if we tried. I am lucky to get a little ELA from Aster and Goldenrod for a little variety.

Roland

[Ian]

Different floral and tastes types is one point in the honey industry that truly makes marketing a real challenge.
Its not like wheat, canola, or beef, where you can simply manage the operations to bring in one consistent product from anywhere in the world.
Honey quality hinges largely on the floral it is pulled from.
consumers are a creature of habit, and they tend to settle their habits on predictability. They reach for the honey jar, they want it to taste the same as it did last week , last year, when they were a kid. I am not saying thats a bad thing at all. Its just the way consumer act and react. I think the honey industry has done a great job suiting to consumers habit. Being able to take honey produced all around the world and placing it in the consumers hands affordably.
I dont like it when the packer continue to get hammered by us for providing the very service we ask of them to do. We are in a world market place. We do trade our honey world wide, wheather we export or not doesnt matter. World trade dictates the price we get for our produce. We all benifet on that exhange. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Now, from a beekeepers point of view, lets educate that consumer and make them realize where the honey comes from, and how its produced. Lets get them in the habit of buying our honey because of its quality, and lets get them in the habit of providing the chance line our pockets with gold!

[sqkcrk]

Perhaps it's unique to my circumstance, but 95% of my customers just come in, stock up on honey and go on their way. They already seem to know how to use it to their liking.

Sure, that makes sense. Do you suppose that if you put a hangtag of recipes on some of your jars or a pamphlet in their bag that they might use a little more or the same in a different way? You might sell a little more honey. You may sell out.

[sqkcrk]

The trick is, how do you convince people who don't give a **** about 'quality' honey to stop at your honey stand. And believe me, you'll need thousands of them.

You probably can't, until you get them to try your honey.

Every now and then I see one of my jars or honeybears on the shelf in the grocery store next to the other honey that the store also sells. My honey is in the produce section, not the grocery section, so I know they picked mine up first and then chose the cheaper stuff. It doesn't bother me. I just say to myself, "I'll get you next time."

There's nothing wrong w/ the more cheaply priced store brand honey. But mine is better. I'm not going to sell it at a price that will make the store owner sell it for less than their store brand. Fewer sales at a higher price result in more profit per pound.

[sqkcrk]

One of the local restaurants serves honey clearly cut with HFCS.


If this is so, and especially provable, someone should take them to court for adulteration of honey.

You need to get Texas to adopt the FL Law on Honey Purity.

[sqkcrk]

mark, i respect your viewpoint here...without a doub the best way to deal with a problem is to be too busy making money to make it worth your time to even notice it is there :D

i want to make sure you understand that the NHB spends the money it collects from first handlers that go through more than 250000lbs of honey a year (a penny a pound) to tell the public that there is no difference between imported/heated/blended/tainted supermarket honey and your honey. we know that _some_ supermarket honey is lousy, and it's irresponsible (at best) to equate that with quality product.

i'm not advocating "badmouthing" someone because they are a competitor, i'm advocating telling the public the truth when they have already been lied to.

...and i don't think i'll ever get over the NHB spending a million dollars co-promoting the bee movie...as AN EDUCATIONAL FILM!

deknow

Right you are deknow, that movies was awful and awfully uneducational.

I gotta laygh out of your first statement. Thanks.

I agree. Tell them the truth. But I believe that you are wasting your time telling someone something that they didn't ask to be told. And it doesn't speak well for our industry. But if they ask, tell them.

The NHB hasn't been beneficial to the US beekeeping industry. Only to the packers.

[123456]

Sure, that makes sense. Do you suppose that if you put a hangtag of recipes on some of your jars or a pamphlet in their bag that they might use a little more or the same in a different way? You might sell a little more honey. You may sell out.

Actually I took down 50% of my signage this year. Sold out in Nov, bought 12 barrels to get me through til closing. Just arranged to get 25 barrels to get me to the new crop. I long for the 'I hope I sell out' days.

Although starting out, recipe pamphlets may make the difference between selling 3 cases vs 2 at a farmers market, ultimately price will determine your volume.

[loggermike]

Looks like the Chinese are still merrily circumventing with the help of their friends .This link was posted on Bee-l. It is Ron Phipps speech at 2010 AHPA meeting.
http://www.americanhoneyproducers.org/Articles/PhippsSpeechJan2010.pdf

[loggermike]

He also points out that there are health benefits to real honey that would help the honey market like it did almonds , blueberries etc.
A few years ago the almond growers were wondering if they would be able to market a billion pound crop. NOW, they say at least a billion or more lbs crop is needed just to stay even with demand!

[Joel]

MMMM Rice Syrup - Sounds pretty tasty to me!

Of course we all knew this was coming in force when wholesale prices went up, didn't we?

[irwin harlton]

Price of "real" honey set for rapid rise?


The Argentine crop was about 110 million pounds, largely due to a severe
drought. A significant shortage of white honey has emerged. Aside from the allegedly
circumvented “white honey” from tropical regions, the price of white honey has greatly
firmed and will likely remain firm through the second and third quarters of this year.
Both Brazil and Vietnam have provided a significant and necessary amount of light
amber honey, so essential to the industrial honey market. Total 2009 imports of honey
declined relative to 2008, according to initial indications. This decline could be
influenced by honey being imported through customs categories other than “honey” and
the persistence of the “Packer’s Blend” loophole which may also play a role in the
reduction of total reported

from Ron Phipps
imports.-http://www.americanhoneyproducers.or...echJan2010.pdf

[irwin harlton]

News from www.apitrack.com
English link http://www.apitrack.com/index_en_open.htm <added by mod>


2010-01-25
NEW ZEALAND- DRY CONDITIONS HAVE RESULTED IN A BIG DROP IN HONEY PRODUCTION IN THE NORTHLANDS
Beekeepers Association Northland secretary Simon Peacy says there is very little nectar. Clover dried up in December - normally until it lasts until February. He says the hives have a lot less honey than in other years.


2010-01-25
MEXICO- DUE TO THE COLD HONEY PRODUCTION WILL GO DOWN 3,000 TONS IN YUCATAN
Yucatan Beekeepers say the bloom was good, but the cold prevented the flow of nectar, which caused a 30% decline in total production of honey Yucatan. This decrease as a result of the cold means that beekeepers will not produce 3,000 tons of honey.
See Original Article at www.apitrack.com




2010-01-25
MEXICO- LOOSES 50% OF HONEY HARVEST IN SOME ZONES OF TABASCO DUR TO THE COLD WEATHER
The 50 percent of the production of honey from the Sierra region was lost to the ravages caused the unusual low temperatures were recorded during the last December revealed Honey beekeepers Association of the Sierra.

2010-01-25
ARGENTINA- CONTINUE DOWN THE PERCENTAGE OF EXPORT PRICE PAID TO HONEY PRODUCER
In 2009 on an average export price of US$ 2744 per tonne, the beekeeper received an average of US$ 2070, or 75.43% of that amount. This represents a decrease of nearly 8% over the previous year.

010-01-22
MEXICO- ARE NOT EXPECTING GOOD HONEY HARVEST IN CAMPECHE
Unfortunately for the beekeepers, honey production will be regular, because of the lack of rain and cold fronts on the past that prevented the flowering of the principal trees and plants of the region as tajonal the jabin and Chaco. However, their hope that the weather won't continues to affect and not even able to obtain good crop of honey, however to continue the low temperatures and thus avoid their financial losses. Beekeepers Rodrigo Chi, Alfonso Ku and José Queb indicated that these weather conditions do not bode well, although they said happily, 50 percent of the hives are in perfect condition

2010-01-21
UNITED KINGDOM- BEE NUMBERS FALLING TWICE AS FAST AS THOSE IN EUROPE
The UK bee population is declining at more than twice the rate of that in Europe, according to a new University of Reading study. The research, published online last week by Dr Simon Potts and colleagues, has shown that there has been a 54% decline in England in managed honey bee populations over the last 20 years, compared to an average of 20% across Europe.

2010-01-21
BRAZIL- HONEY EXPORTS DECEMBER 2009
In the month were exported 1,789 tonnes (-2.6%) for a total of US$ 4.9 million (+11.7%) at an average price of US$ 2,738 per ton (+5.1%). In the year's total was exported 26,000 tons (+42.3%) for a total value of US$ 65.79 million (+51%) at an average price of $ 2,530 per ton (+6.1%). All percentage values versus the same period last year.

[irwin harlton]

Prices in Canada have moved up, Odem is at 1.50 for 25mm or better, BillyBee is reported to be at 1.52 ,march payment (COULD SOMEONE PLEASE CONFIRM THIS PRICE)

This is movement in the right direction and no doubt will continue......

[irwin harlton]

2010-01-31

ARGENTINA- HONEY HARVEST IS COMING VERY COMPLICATED
The journalist specializing Federico Petrera (s) and the Engineer Javier Folgar Besone comment on the progress of the harvest in progress, although some small areas that comes well, there are many where the situation is very bad.

this is a video clip in spanish, from [url]http://www.apitrack.com .....who can losely translate this?

[JohnLaurino]

he video says what has been said for 3-4 weeks : argentina has different scnearios in different areas, the crop will be better than 2009 but surely not a great one, the jornalist Petrera says total volume for exports will be app 62,000 tons.
Northern provinces of Argentina, mainly Chaco and Corrientes got very bad prospects, the same for Northern Cordoba. At the same time, Buenos Aires is quite better than 2009.
I would guess the exports from Argentina in 2010 will be app 66,000-70,000 tons as argentine beeks and their friends always try to exagerate the bad prospects and understimate the good ones.

Uruguay will have a better output, estimated to be 10,000 tons. Chile is expected to offer the same as last year while Brazil may at least repeat the 2009's perfomance. Vietnam is already getting a good crop, much better than 2009 (one of the worse ever). There will be a bigger volume of honeys being offered from the South hemisphere this year, the big question is if the demand will compensate this move or not. If so, in what level. ;)

[irwin harlton]

Thankyou John

What precentage of this new 2010 honey do you estimate to be ELA and amber, the rest of course being white

[JohnLaurino]

this is a USD 100,000 question ... I dont have any good idea/

[John Smith]

John Laruino, what is happening with the consumption rate in Argentina?

Worldwide consumption appears to be increasing. Just saying that this year will net us more production than last year is meaningless unless we allow that last year may have been the worse season ever in many places.
With about 1% of sweeteners now being consumed coming from beehives, and the trend already underway to INSIST on natural honey, it appears to me that it would take very little movement in the minds of the masses to increase that numeral to 2%,

That, sir, would require DOUBLING the current average production. The only thing I can think of that would double the production quickly would be for the price to hit ten dollars a kg. It probably will, maybe soon, and it may not stop there either.

Cheers,
JohnS

[lake thompson honey]

midwest packer paying $1.52. going to move up more as retail sales are good and the supply is short. $1.60 would not surprise me.

[irwin harlton]

honey hot line 1 763 658 4193

Quite a difference between what smaller packers are paying and the big guys.Guess the big guys are maybe working on that volume discount theory.
A Canadian broker offering 1.50 in your yard , well got be at LEAST 5 cents plus the exchange rate involved here.Freight is high.So someone somewhere is payng more than 1.52. ... but shhhhhhhhh we want to buy all the cheap white honey we can , right here in the good ol USA
US dollar is gaining strength, I can net 1.055 Can for one US dollar, Hope the Lonnie drops SOME more with the oil price
Small packers in Canada buying 1.60 -1.80, much the the same as in USA.
Seems the glut of swill honey is holding down the prices in the industrial market and influencing the the retail packaged market.No doubt swill is being added to the packaged honey to keep the profits high by the unscrupulous packers.Greed definitely makes the world go round
Would love to know the present size of this US industrial market. Anyone?
Instability and volatility in the markets, especially the currency markets are adding mayhem to all of this.

[John Smith]

Ian, it would be nice to have some reliable statistics on the industrial consumption of honey but I suspect the reason there are none forthcoming, is that it is fast approaching a nil usage situation. It would depend on where one drew the line between industrial and cottage industry production.

If it matters little how much real honey is in supermarket honey, why would anyone want to put real honey into a factory produced product? There are less eyes on the big manufacturers than there are on the supermarkets.

[irwin harlton]

http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9498


Friday, 5 February, 2010 - 19:30

Wellington, Feb 5 NZPA - Beekeepers are warning the country's growing honey trade with the United States will suffer if Australian honey products are allowed into New Zealand.

The National Beekeepers' Association of New Zealand (NBA) said tonight that Australian honey was being mixed with international honey and exported as an Australian product.

"If Australian honey imports are allowed into New Zealand, New Zealand risks becoming a 'honey laundering' hub, a situation that would severely damage our honey exporters," NBA joint chief executive Gemma Collier said.


Australian honey imports inTO Canada exceed $10M for 2009.............mmmmmmmmmm more funny honey

[JohnK and Sheri]

Please, let's keep to the topic of bulk honey prices and market outlook. Just the facts, folks.
Sheri

[sqkcrk]

Okay, I bought some honey lately at $1.45/lb in barrels and $100.00 per 60 lb bucket. It's ELA clover and goldenrod honey.

Three barrels and 50 buckets, from two diffent sources in NY.

[John Smith]

OK, sqkcrk, we all know there is honey available at nil cost at times. There are plenty of beekeepers including Ulee who give it away. That is acceptable. But my farm gate price is not determined by the value of what I give away.

...... you need to disclose what size the barrels were, how many pounds in total you bought at these prices, ..

Cough up brother, or were you just hoping to pour cold water on our hopes of a little rise?

Cheers,

JohnS

[Kieck]

Based on the way I figure what Mark (sqkcrk) gave us, the price he paid was an average of $1.58 a pound. Am I figuring right, Mark?

[JohnK and Sheri]

John, Mark's price is typical of what we are seeing on the wholesale level for ELA and the wholesale level is what commercial beekeepers most deal with, what this forum is focused on and what this thread is meant to convey. That is a good price for ELA, historically on the high side for bulk wholesale, at least when considering barrels. When we say barrels here, we are talking about 55 gal, unless specified otherwise. Pails are 60# and being a smaller container, bring a higher price.
We are NOT talking retail here.
Prices always vary by individual sale. Sometimes a seller is caught unawares of price rises, sometimes a buyer pays way more than his competition due to desperation. While these prices may not reflect the average nation wide seasonal pricing, it is a snapshot of the market at that particular place and time and is useful to others here. Quantity is only one possibly relevant factor, mostly notable in that small quantities are more expensive, all things equal, than larger ones. We charge more for the odd barrel going out the door than by the semi.
Sheri
Please, this thread is for exchanging BULK pricing and market info, not being cheerleaders for consumer awareness. Editorializing about what honey prices should be is preaching to the choir here. If wishful thinking made the price rise, we would all be millionaires.:)

[sqkcrk]

OK, sqkcrk, we all know there is honey available at nil cost at times. There are plenty of beekeepers including Ulee who give it away. That is acceptable. But my farm gate price is not determined by the value of what I give away.

...... you need to disclose what size the barrels were, how many pounds in total you bought at these prices, ..

Cough up brother, or were you just hoping to pour cold water on our hopes of a little rise?

Cheers,

JohnS

Okay, 50 buckets at $100.00 each containing 60 lbs of honey each.
Three barrels of honey at $1.45/lb. Gross weight 700lb, 689lb and 694lb.

I got an inquiry about whether I could supply a guy w/ 1300lbs of honey for his summer beer batch. He didn't balk at my $2.00/lb price. Just sent him and his brewer a sample each.

What I pay for honey is quite different from what I sell honey for, but it does contribute to what that price is in the end, of course.

[sqkcrk]

Based on the way I figure what Mark (sqkcrk) gave us, the price he paid was an average of $1.58 a pound. Am I figuring right, Mark?

Yeah, I guess. I didn't do the math. But, $100.00/60lb bucket is $1.666666/lb, isn't it?

At ABF mtng I heard that Dave H. had barrels of honey that he was going to sell for $2.00/lb. I don't know if he did or not.

Back when I sold barrels of honey, a packer in the NE would tell me that their price was $X.XX, but they weren't buying any. So, I don't know why they told me that. Does anyone want to sell me some honey at $1.75/lb? Or $1.90?

[sqkcrk]

Please, this thread is for exchanging BULK pricing and market info,

Oh, okay, I didn't realize that. I guess my reports are more like those found in BeeCulture and ABJ. Anecdotal.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Mark, your report is relevant, I wasn't talking to you. Anecdotal is about all we have, right? I just wanted to stress to anyone thinking the prices reported were very low, that we were talking bulk honey, not retail. We don't want anyone thinking these are retail prices.:eek:
Sheri

[John Smith]

Many beekeepers are both producers and traders, buying in as little as they need while others buy far more than they produce. It isn't necessarily easy to decide sometimes, whether those folk really want prices to go up or down, not even in their own minds perhaps.

Cheers,
JohnS

[irwin harlton]

"HA NOI — Viet Nam exported more than 14 million tonnes of honey last year, earning US$23 million, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Rural Development.




The US recently became the biggest importer of Vietnamese honey, taking 80 per cent of exports. Vietnamese honey accounts for 17 per cent of the market."

http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9568

All ELA and amber , except the white stuff that comes transhipped from China......... is that $1642/MT or .75/lb??????, cheap ehh!

[irwin harlton]

John said "Many beekeepers are both producers and traders, buying in as little as they need while others buy far more than they produce. It isn't necessarily easy to decide sometimes, whether those folk really want prices to go up or down, not even in their own minds perhaps."
I would like to think anyone who has been it this buissness for any length of time would gladly like to see honey prices higher than what current markets are offering,especially from the producer end.

I think and sometimes contemplate as I look at honey prices on the store shelf of a number of things.

The premier Canadian product selling for $12.49 per Kg......close to $6/LB( 5.67 actually).
Not uncommon to have a vendors markup of 30-35 % involved in this final price, also a brokerage fee of 7-10 % and numerous other incidental costs, usually referred to as the middleman costs
As the price increases, so do these middleman costs, brokerage fees,and vendors markup.
Current prices to the producer are 1.50-1.60/lb REPRESENTING approx 30 % of the total cost to the end consumer.
"The average retail prices of honey have increased in the U.S. by 16% over the past 24 months without any corresponding decline in consumption, which is estimated to be ....."
from Mr Ron Phipps, page 1038 ABJ , NOV 2009.

So are we at the point where "sticker price shock" is cutting sales and leveled off demand from consumers, or is the economy so bad that the luxury food HONEY is falling in sales?
I think not,I think it is the packers who are, were addicted to the lower priced foreign honey.The current color of honey on the U.S. Wall Mart shelf grows darker every month.
There used be a time when packers took a lot of pride in how light colored and mild flavored their pack was , seems to have been replaced by the desire to make money at any cost.
"Although nominal honey prices have trended upwards over time ,real prices(net of inflation) have trended downwards,with both series exhibiting substantial year to year variation.Historically high recent nominal prices are considerably lower, in real terms, than historical real prices" FROM ARTICLE "U.S. Honey Markets,ABJ, page1128, December 2009
There is also a graph on the same page showing prices 1999 to 2007.......... the price hasn't gone up much from 2007, if any,................ long overdue I say for a big bump up

Choose a job you like and you will never have to work a day in your life.
Confucius quote

William Black is author of "The Best Way to Rob a Bank is to Own One".

[sqkcrk]

irwin, it seemed for a while there that people were buying honey, regardless of the economy, because they have been buying it. I don't know if that is true or not, just a feeling. But the difference between sales in '08 and '09 rose only by 2%, so maybe honey sales have dropped for me. I'm not sure.

January sales in 2010 were 1000 lbs higher than in 2009. I think that that may reflect the fact that there isn't as much honey out there now as there was last year. I have picked up a couple of new customers because their supplier didn't keep up the accounts.

I raised my prices last Sept. I think I need to raise them again.

I know this isn't on the large scale, but I hope it is the sort of discussion that you are looking for.

[Eaglerock]

I raised my prices last Sept. I think I need to raise them again.

I know this isn't on the large scale, but I hope it is the sort of discussion that you are looking for.

So sre you selling bulk? Or- are you just selling local in jars?

[irwin harlton]

HONEY MARKET REPORT
March 1, 2010
Ron Phipps




Given the current global economic recession and high rates of unemployment and underemployment, there are obvious and real restraints on how high honey prices can rise.

" Life is too short to wake up in the morning with regrets . So love the people who treat you right , and forget about the ones who don't and believe that everything happens for a reason . If you get a chance , take it . If it changes your life , let it . Nobody said that it would be easy , they just promised it would be worth it ." ?

[jean-marc]

I agree with Mr. Phipps. However some of the so called honey coming from China , you know the stuff that apparently gets cut with rice syrup are preventing honey from attaining that level. Evidently the market will dictate that figure.

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

HONEY MARKET REPORT
March 1, 2010
Ron Phipps

"Argentine beekeepers with poor or bad crops are thinking the only path for their survival is with an irrationally high surge in prices. The beekeepers with normal crops are cognizant of the overall situation and are selling honey in only small quantities to cover immediate costs while “waiting for higher prices.” Of course, they may mis-calculate and wait too long, given the fact that the abundant rains and snows covering California and the Midwest could portend a bigger North American honey crop in 2010. The wild card variable of circumvented and cheap Chinese honey still looms large over the American honey market. In any case, Argentine honey prices are likely to remain firm. In January, about 2,500MT were exported with an additional 3,500-5,000MT are expected to be exported in February. From March through June it is expected that Argentina will be able to export about 5,000MT monthly. The overall global economic difficulties may, in the final analysis, restrain the Argentine beekeepers’ ambition to achieve the historically high prices that they seek."





http://www.apitrack.com/noticias/aaacotizacionmiel_es_open.htm

From looking at the above site I would say prices are definitely on the upward move in Argentina, no mention of quantity, volume there.
Volume of exports for 2010 should be found here http://www.senasa.gov.ar/indexhtml.php

[irwin harlton]

http://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B9edS5OtMIN1YmM4ZDNlYWQtNzJmNS00MzgyLWI2M GItMzQxMDY0ZmNkY2Yx&hl=en


click on link to see documents, Argentina honey exports 2009
Argentina honey exports 2010
Ron Phipps Honey Report March3, 2010

[sqkcrk]

So sre you selling bulk? Or- are you just selling local in jars?

Primarily doing direct store deliveries of jars and 5 gallon totes.

[John Smith]

Despite and regardless of the whispers and secrets of commercially sensitive information, here’s an official publication quotation from “Australia’s Honeybee News” January – February Edition, 2010.

In the page devoted to ‘Presidents Report’ is this excerpt:

“Prices paid by some packers have dropped mainly driven by their inability to pay; other packers are maintaining or slightly lifting prices to secure stocks they require.”

Obviously, Australia is headed into their winter marketing conditions, so some urgency exists with putting in stock. However, unless credit is available from our banking tree, it will be very difficult for packers to find capital to buy in their stock at elevated prices.

Happy Marketing,

JohnS

[Beeslave]

A packer called me wanting honey. He is paying $1.38-$1.40 for Amber, $1.48 for Extra Light Amber, and $1.55 for White.

[irwin harlton]

Vietnam is suffering from the worst drought in over a century

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1969630,00.html

Honey prices seem to be moving up, Canadian broker offering 1.60 picked up in beekeepers yard-- source Manitoba Beekeepers convention. We now are backup to the price we had offered last fall
Current USA prices 1.55-- source Mid US Honey Hot Line , recording march 4th

Retail, on the shelf prices had a zero increase in 2009, according to this study http://www.washingtonwinemaker.com/blog/2010/01/25/honey-prices-unexpectedly-flat-in-2009/

From Kim Flottum at http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/bees/2009-honey-crop-470301#ixzz0hVgbYAxL

"The average price of honey( BULK) increased a couple cents per pound - 2 percent over last year’s prices, from $1.421 to $1.445 per pound. Retail prices, however, were even higher, rising from $2.247 to $2.784 per pound, or just over 50 cents a pound. That’s a hike by any standard." These prices are I believe are from the National Honey Board site

[irwin harlton]

looks to me like that the trans-shipped Chinese honey market is being well supplied in 2010

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/industry-statistics/

click USDA National Honey Report scroll down to imports


white honey


Indonesia 537,100 kg

[Beeslave]

I received a call from another packer wanting honey. I sent him sample of the 3 colors I have left. 1/3 of the honey is ELA, another 1/3 is Dark ELA/Light LA, and the last 1/3 is LA made mostly from Golden Rod and Frost aster with some summer honey mixed in it. After viewing and tasting my samples he offered $1.50 per lb. across the board for the whole lot. I jokingly asked him if I waited 2 wks would he offer me $1.60. He seriously responded back saying it was very possible. It depended on what was available from Canada yet.

[irwin harlton]

Canadian broker is currently paying 1.60 for white,in beekeepers yard........so add freight,duty and brokers fees and you have what packer is paying
The scarcity of the product white honey , the price fixing determined by the financial deflationary recession,the market depression by unbelievable cheap Chinese trans-shipped syrup,......lots of variables pushing on the price. Raising the price, up till now has been like pushing on a string.A large number of producers have sold at or below current prices, so some producers must have assumed that is, was a good price or they couldn't see it getting better. Prices have risen in Argentina and could go a lot higher
Barring a complete USA economic crash I see a parabolic curve in prices for honey,bombing of Iran would probably help push the price up. http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/world-news/final-destination-iran-1.1013151

[irwin harlton]

And adding to the world wide shortage of honey we have this; http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?news_id=9874&language_id=2

A little spill on the expressway,.......probably Chinese anyways

Argentina keepers are netting 2.23 USD per Kg,from buyers ,brokers, this is up from previous years and looks like to me they net more from USA sales then from European sales in Euro's, the euro being weaker and that honey is traded in US dollars world wide.USA is the largest buyer. http://www.apitrack.com/frame/index.php?language_id=2&news_id=9872

From the Honey Hot Line , maybe that packer paying 1.62, with payment delayed two months can buy his groceries and gas like that, but I doubt it, anyone looking or asking for deals like this ain't living in the real world.Honey to money= cash or 30 days.
The packer logic being that in 2 months , honey is going to worth lot more than 1.62


"Money, when considered as the fruit of many years' industry, as the reward of labor, sweat and toil, as the widow's dowry and children's portion, and as the means of procuring the necessaries and alleviating the afflictions of life, and making old age a scene of rest, has something in it sacred that is not to be sported with, or trusted to the airy bubble of paper currency."
Thomas Paine

[Mtn. Bee]

I sell my honey retail only and am aware that this post is not intended to relate to that market so I won't comment about the retail end of things.
The comment I wanted to make was to hold your ground on your honey prices as purchasers are willing to pay if they want the product.
Also remember all that hard work and time and money you have invested into your operation months before the extracting season even starts??!! :thumbsup:
My point is don't cut yourself and your product short, lets keep the market where it should be, in our favor!
Ok, I will shut up now! :D:D

p.s. Just my 2 cents!

[irwin harlton]

Argentina price for white jumps up..............hoping this is the take off for world wide higher prices


http://www.apinews.com/en/argentina-honey-price



There is no such thing as a bad debt. There are only bailouts-in-waiting.

[irwin harlton]

no, Argentina jump was only a currency effect, from a friend in Chile

[Wee3Bees]

Has anyone heard if that warehouse fire in Houston has had any affect yet on this year's honey prices? Last I heard ELA might be $1.60 this year... could this be the year for $2 a pound for white?

Just wondering... it's been almost a month since anyone posted on this thread.

[irwin harlton]

HONEY PACKERS’ & MARKETERS’ASSOCIATION AUSTRALIA (HPMAA) REPORT
As at 1 April 2010
Packers now report better holding levels of honey due to improved weather conditions around the country (despite the storms, drought or fire effects). Sales vary according to who you are talking to but overall there is a sense of normality on them. Noted points are:
• Consumption appears to have had a very slight increase as the Retail World data for year ending 2009 showed this. Taking into account the larger unknown of beekeeper direct sales once could deduce this same pattern in the market.
• Packers report it is difficult to make margins these days as a result of increased costs and supermarket demands.
• Packers’ brands remain under enormous pressure to house branded/generic labels with the major chain still having a high focus on them.
• Supermarkets are now demanding their brand suppliers to start to undertake Ethical sourcing audits, carbon foot printing and a range of other criteria. All this just adds costs to the packer. In the end the last in the line suffers as they (supermarkets in general) don’t pass this added cost onto consumers so they can stay highly competitive and their margin is not eroded.
• The high Australian dollar is seeing reduced exports. This will mean that as honey comes back to normal levels farm gate values will be under pressure to fall.
• In the world market there is a sense that honey prices will fall adding further pressure on Australian producers as we compete against cheap competition.
• Export information from the ABS shows that packaged product volumes remained much the same for the December period this financial year as last year. Export bulk rose very marginally. Imports showed an increase in bulk honey but the data is skewed as a proportional amount is re-exported to specialised customers who request a certain flavour profile product which is a blend with Australian. Another variable has been Canadian bulk honey being imported then re-exported back again as value added product – however with the packer existing some of this market, the data will, in time, take on a more normalised result

from http://www.honeybee.org.au

[suttonbeeman]

sold orange ex white for 1.60...three major packers all offering 1.60 with barrel exchange and picked up at your dock!

[irwin harlton]

FROM http://skamberg.com/honey.htm

Honey Update:

May 2010

The 2009 U.S. honey crop was the poorest U.S. honey crop in recorded history. The 144 million pound crop was down 12% from the 2008 crop, and down 28% from the 200 million average crop levels of 10 years ago. Over the last 5 years, the U.S. honey crop has averaged 156 million pounds.



Some of the reasons for the poor 2009 U. S. crop are listed below:

*

Weather – Drought conditions in the West, and very cool, wet weather in the upper Mid-West
*

Reduced forage area – Much of the prime forage area for bees has been turned into farm land for
*

cash crops or developed for commercial or residential use.
*

Fewer bees – Colony Collapse Disorder and increased pesticide use in what was once bee forage
*

areas has reduced bee colony numbers.

The decline in U.S crop production, along with poor honey crops produced in most of the world’s leading honey producing countries, has created critical supply shortages. Since demand for this honey has not fallen significantly, raw honey prices in the world market are rising.



The South American honey crop was poor due mostly to poor weather conditions. South American honey is very expensive and most of that honey is being sold to Europe.



India produced a good honey crop, but Sioux is finding much of that honey to be adulterated, which means that smaller volumes of that honey are available from Sioux. Pricing for this honey is about 15% to 20 % higher than last year.



Although the Vietnam honey crop is better than last year, the total volume is small, and competition for this honey is high.



Most of the Chinese honey is being sold to Europe. The U. S is still receiving Chinese honey being sold as honey syrup or circumvented through a 3rd country, which has created and sustained a second tiered market. Deception is the concern for any Chinese honey entering the U.S., with adulterated and contaminated honey being the main concerns.



The best that most can hope for price relief is a bumper U.S. crop in 2010, but even if that happens, prices will start out very high and only drop back if buying drops off.

[Wee3Bees]

What is White, ELA and LA going for now that the crop is starting to come in (at least in the South)? I don't have a feel for 2010 prices yet... does anyone else?

[knorm]

There is a rumor that the current offering price for white honey is $1.68 (US) or more- can anyone confirm that.

[Beeslave]

WI packer only offering $1.60 lb for ELA/WH(clover, basswood, alfalfa).

[sqkcrk]

Do you have to show the packer a honey standard certificate?

[Beeslave]

? Wasn't mentioned ?

[suttonbeeman]

You do NOT have to prove you have a test meeting honey standard! IF a packer or a beekeeper finds adulterated honey then you can use the standard to go after the dishonest person(company). At no time have I ever heard of anyone having to have test before they sell honey! And I am very good friends with the person who got the first one passed in Florida and also know the attorney who helped get it established! Its the best thing that has happened to honest beekeepers/honey producers!

[sqkcrk]

Well, apparently in WI you can't legaly sell honey w/out a license and w/out having tested honey that meets the standard. According to what I read on another Thread.

[The Honey Householder]

For me to keep it all fair I send my samples to three different packers. They each sent me back color grade, % of moist, and if there is any thing that shouldn't be in pure honey like (HFCS). It's funny how different some test come back.
A packer called me to see if I had a load, and quoted me $1.68 on Wht. No barrel exchange. 30 day payout.( sorry not a bank):eek:
Come on that price was last years price.
The way it looks the beekeeper will get all my honey again this year.

[Roland]

SQKCRK - I am unaware of any promogulation of the administrative codes for honey in Wisconsin. It was expected to take 12-18 months. The Bill only directed the Ag. department to promogulate the rules, Please correct me, anyone, if I am wrong. I have the e-mail of the person who was to promogulate the rules. When Summer is over, I will check on their progress.

Roland

[sqkcrk]

Thanks Roland.

[irwin harlton]

from the start of this Thread in 2005
" Deflation , then inflation and currently a whole bunch of de-leveraging going on in this crazy economy, which I hear from the majority with crystal balls, that is only going to get worse as a recession or a depression .'

Now today in July 2010 the US is essentially broke , bankrupt, whats coming next......higher honey prices?......maybe down the road when the official crop results come in,and inflation kicks in .Things are not looking good , crop wise here or from what I hear in western Canada or elsewhere.So todays packers offerings are shall I say MEAGER OR INSULTING

From what I hear we or the powers that be have been unable to stop the flow of Chinese honey, it no doubt has been the kiss of death to this industry and is continuing on a larger scale.I hear new plans of attack on this curse, meetings with gov't ... homeland security

Here's something to ponder
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Archives2009/RobertsUSFailedState.html

Food maybe become short in supply, expensive........honey included.
Truth is in short supply but it is out there

http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010_08_01_archive.html

There will be pain in Canada from this financial mess,perhaps leading to hyper inflation cause we are so tied into your economy with our trade ,etc

[jean-marc]

I've extracted a good portion of the 2010 crop. It's time for me to sell it. What prices are being offered and by what packers? I'll have a load.

Jean-Marc

[irwin harlton]

"It's time for me to sell it."

Not a good time to sell,Jean Marc, unless you can get the price you want .It seems current offerings coming from packers are low balling....1.50 and their advice is prices are going down in the future ( I f you knew prices were going to be cheaper in the future why would you be buying now)...ITS THE OLD WAITING GAME, TO see who and what moves first , prices or honey at current prices Every load the packers get at current prices MAY INFLUENCE the price later on

[jmgi]

Not being a commercial beekeeper and not having large volumes of honey to move I don't follow what the packers pay that closely, but it must be common practice for packers to low ball the buy price every year at harvest time, sounds like something they would do. John

[Beeslave]

It is.

[mnbeekeeper]

if we can all work together and hold our crops as long as possible i think that would help drive the price up for all of us. then when it gets high we all dump it as fast as we can!! it is tough to hold in the fall lots of expenses, trucking, and feed are the 2 i think of most.

[jean-marc]

One reason I sell my honey at this time of the year is I don't have proper storage. I don't produce a whole bunch of honey and the cost of getting a proper set up would definitely be more expensive than the potential gain gotten by say, a 25 cent increase in price 3 months down the road. I get my honey custom extracted and don't really like storing it there.... so out the door it must go. 1.50-1.60 a pound is a relatively good price. It's enough to encourage those who have equipment sitting idle to purchase nucs to restock their deadouts. Those are the dollars that get my attention.

Jean-Marc

[sqkcrk]

if we can all work together and hold our crops as long as possible i think that would help drive the price up for all of us. then when it gets high we all dump it as fast as we can!! it is tough to hold in the fall lots of expenses, trucking, and feed are the 2 i think of most.

I believe that this is called collusion and is illegal.

[slickbrightspear]

farmers have done it in the past and it is not illegal can't remember the name of the farm organization that organized it. I will ask dad and post it later.

[sqkcrk]

I have heard of $1.50/# for honey in buckets and barrels in NY.

[jmgi]

I believe that this is called collusion and is illegal.

I think if it is done the right way you could probably get away with it, like someone just said, the farmers have done it in the past. On the other hand, what keeps the packers from buying cheaper foreign honey instead of buying ours at higher price? Is there some law that keeps the packer somewhat honest? I guess if the packer is going to label their product as having some U.S. honey in it, there is a certain amount they have to buy from us. John

[slickbrightspear]

I asked dad he said it was the NFO that did that in the past the problem was that not everyone would hold as they had bills to pay so it did not work very well.

[sqkcrk]

And I believe that it was called a Farmers Strike. Like when a Dairy Farmer dumps a tank of milk in protest of the price.

Beekeepers will never go for it. We can't even stick together in one National Organization, let alone agree to withold honey from the market. So, let's get real.

[suttonbeeman]

sqkcrk...yep you are right its price fixing...anti trust. BUT tobacco companies have done it for yrs....when we sold tobacco at auction every buyer most of time bid same amount. THe auctioneer had a percentage he went by....every buyer knew when it was his turn and would let you know if you messed up(i did some auctioneering) If company a goes up .05 company b follows....the farmer is the only business that sells for what you give him...I can imagine going in walmart and them selling you merchandise at your best "offer". The farmer has been price fixed by big companies for yrs...and nothing done!

[irwin harlton]

So how does $ 4/lb honey sound,..... got a nice ring to it, .........It comes with $20/gallon diesel fuel and the rest of the hyperinflation in all commodities.............http://www.zerohedge.com/article/guest-post-how-hyperinflation-will-happen

[jean-marc]

$4/lb does have a nice ring to it but currently diesel fuel is slightly over $1/L or put in American that's $4/gallon. Currently honey is $1.5/lb. So to keep honey prices in step with hyperinflation where we would see a 5 fold increase of diesl fuel prices, I would also want a five fold increase in honey prices just to keep in step with the Exxon folks. That would give us $7.5/lb honey. Definitely a way nicer ring to it. Not sure that social order would be maintained at those prices.

Jean-Marc

[The Honey Householder]

Sold melter honey today for $1.50 a lb.:eek: only had 3 barrels. Wht. honey selling for $1.85 by the barrel.

[jmgi]

Let's just say that I wouldn't want to see $4/lb. wholesale either because like others have said, cost of everything else would be proportionally higher, and we'd still be complaining. But when the grocery store sells honey at anywhere from $5-$8/lb., I think the producer deserves a bit more right now for their efforts, say $2-$2.50/lb. on a regular basis. JMO. John

[sqkcrk]

And what about when they sell honey at Walmart type prices? Do you think that beekeepers are obliged to send the packers and the retailers some money?

If you aren't making enuf profit, do something more profitable. Like mine gold in Chile. But you'd better own the mine.

[jmgi]

>If you aren't making enuf profit, do something more profitable. Like mine gold in Chile. But you'd better own the mine.[/QUOTE\

I would think that at todays wholesale price from packers, some beeks make a decent profit, others not so good. What's the problem with a few cents more if we can get it? By the way, I do mine gold occasionally, but I'm not the mine owner. :cry: John

[sqkcrk]

If we compare data from the past, I wonder what the graph of prices paid for honey by packers and the cost of living would look like. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar curves throughout history.

Prices paid by packers and cost of production pace each other I bet. And the price is and has been just below or just above cost of production, I believe. Just enuf so, so as to keep beekeepers producing honey.

I wonder if some commodities expert could look at this and see the trends?

[irwin harlton]

I don't think cost of production in North America has ever been a big factor in what the packers will pay,in certain years the price has been below what the cost of production was.
The biggest factor or influence is what the cheap imported honey is selling for .
Do you want some cheap stuff.......http://www.deltahoney.com/bulkhoney.htm
I said stuff not honey........maybe wondering why the price is not going up even with a world shortage of white honey........you can't produce it for that price and make any money doing it ,unless your getting 200 - 300 lb crops

[jmgi]

$1.05/lb.? Wouldn't that mean whoever is importing it is actually paying alot less than that per/lb because shipping costs are included in the $1.05 price too? This just isn't right. John

[jean-marc]

John , that price includes all the shipping costs except for the final one. The buyer in the US would have to pay freight from that LA warehouse. That price would also include the warehousing costs in LA. Most of the chinese honey is produced by peasants who live in Canvas tents and migrate throughout the country in an attempt to follow honeyflows. They use the public trains to move their bees around. The public doesn not care for them much as some people get stung while waiting for trains. These beekeepers for the most part are dirt poor, no trucks for these guys. I think then some small time, district wholesaler picks up the honey from these guys. There is probably a regional wholesaler who picks it up from the district wholesaler. Then a national wholesaler who will pick it up from the regional wholesaler. It's probably the last guy who will do the "Doctoring" of the honey. The ultrafiltration or the add the rice syrup part. Then again not all chinese honey will fall in either of those 2 categories. The chinese produce some acacia honey that is top notch. Acacia honey has a wonderful flavour and is white. So if there are no residue issues and no rice syrup then it is a premium honey.

So what's not right here John? The bulk of chinese honey is produced by migrant peasants who are working for handfulls of rice a day. That's the competition. No matter what you or I do we cannot compete with them, unless you want to drastically alter your lifestyle. I for one am quite attached to my house. I got a new truck this year (used one albeit) and really enjoy it. I don't want to give up these things in order to compete with chinese peasants. I'll go back to teaching or drive truck seeing as how I have a few of them.

I don't have any issues with the small time producers of china. I have issues with the "chemists" that doctor the honey. Ultrafiltration takes honey and turns it into some fancy syrup but it isn't honey anymore. Adding rice syrup blending it with honey to avoid tariffs and then still calling it honey I have issues with.

This world market is in a bit of a mess and I for one don't see it going away anytime soon. The chinese are not going away. It seems that those who want to cheat just get a little more clever, or so they think with every barrier that is placed in front of them. Anti dumping tariffs no problem , we'll tranship to a third country and relabel. Antibiotic residues , norproblem , we'll ultrafilter. Shortage of honey in the USA no problem, we'll add a little rice syrup, call it a blend avoid tariffs. Long term, it appears as if the chinese have the upper hand as it looks like all is fair in love and war and selling honey. The US law makers are kinda on our side but the enforcement agencies are really not up to speed.

Irwin: I opened that Delta website. They are selling LA and ELA honey. No white honey for sale. I guess that's why the packs are getting darker on the store shelves.

The only long term solution I see is promoting North American honey. The industry has to support financially these advertisement costs and slowly but surely these efforts will pay off dividends. That or spend efforts promoting North American honey in china. The chinese mistrust their own honey producers. I think they are viewed slighly lower than a used car salesman is in North America. I think they have 5 times the population of the USA so it's big market, that is craving high quality honey. Beemaid the Canadian honey producers coop has made significant inroads selling honey in China. Last I heard they had a 5 year plan and were on track after year 2. That was 2 years ago. Apparently if all went according to plan Canada could not supply enough honey to the chinese market if all went according to the 5 year plan. Any co-op members care to comment about this?

Enough ramblings, gotta get samples for tracheal mites and Nosemae now.

Jean-Marc

[sqkcrk]

$1.05/lb.? Wouldn't that mean whoever is importing it is actually paying alot less than that per/lb because shipping costs are included in the $1.05 price too? This just isn't right. John

Why? Why not? What am I missing in that statement?

Jerry, at Wixson Honey Inc says that he is paying $1.65 to $1.70 for honey in buckets or barrels.