Politheism?

[sqkcrk]

The invocation at McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa reinforces my opinion that religion should be left out of politics. And if that can't happen, then religious persons should stick to religion and leave politics alone. Leave the politics out of the prayer.

I thought that there was supposed to only be one God. This "minister" apparently acknowledges the existence of many Gods. Even though he doesn't seem to know that Hindu is a religion and not a God. That Buddah isn't a God. And that Islamists pray to the same God as Jews and Christians. Allah means "the God". So, maybe that guy needs to go back to seminary. Perhaps a different one. One that accurately teaches something about other religions.

[Bodo]

And that Islamists pray to the same God as Jews and Christians. Allah means "the God". So, maybe that guy needs to go back to seminary. Perhaps a different one. One that accurately teaches something about other religions.

I don't think that you've got any idea what god I pray too. I'd also think you'd have a hard time convicing an Islamic Jihadist that I or my wife (a Jew)pray to the same god he does....

[sqkcrk]

I don't think that you've got any idea what god I pray too. I'd also think you'd have a hard time convicing an Islamic Jihadist that I or my wife (a Jew)pray to the same god he does....

So you recognize the existence of more than one God too?
Which one do you pray to?

Do you think that if Obama wins the election that the other Gods will seem stronger?

Jihadist? Who said anything about Jihadists? You aren't painting all Moslems w/ the same brush, are you?

[Bodo]

So you recognize the existence of more than one God too? Which one do you pray to?

Does it really matter? I'm not killing people based on what religion they are.


Do you think that if Obama wins the election that the other Gods will seem stronger?

No, why would it? Obama isn't a religious leader is he?

Jihadist? Who said anything about Jihadists? You aren't painting all Moslems w/ the same brush, are you?

Nope, I said Jihadists. Not all Muslims. Painting with a large brush aren't we?

[dragonfly]

Acknowledgement that there are different gods worshipped by different peoples is not polytheism. Polytheism is personal belief that there is more than one god and the basis for one's own view of religion.

Imo, you cannot truly separate religion and politics. You may have the desire to ban discussing religion and politics on the same stage, but they are closely intertwined, and each feeds off the other.

[Galaxy]

The invocation at McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa reinforces my opinion that religion should be left out of politics. And if that can't happen, then religious persons should stick to religion and leave politics alone. Surely you do not mean what you appear to say, i.e. religious persons should not engage in politics? That appears to be the sentiment of many liberals. But don't you feel that it is antidemocratic and illiberal.

[sqkcrk]

Surely you do not mean what you appear to say, i.e. religious persons should not engage in politics? That appears to be the sentiment of many liberals. But don't you feel that it is antidemocratic and illiberal.

I'm not saying religious people should not engage in politics. There wouldn't be very many people engaged in politics if that were so. But, ministers advocating from the pulpit for or against one person or party is subject to the lose of nonprofit status.

Those not in church seem sometimes to cast their candidate in less than stellar light by the way they sow the seeds of division by critisizing persons of other religions for what they believe.

I don't think that the minister in question did McCain any favors nor did he show himself to be very knowledgeable about the religions he was trying to say something about.

And he was also chastising God (blasphemy, no?) in that if he didn't step up to the challenge and help McCain win he would be thought less of by others. To me this line of thinking is folly, unless one believes that God is fallible.

[J-Bees]

I sure wish that we could make all pay taxes. Bible says render unto Cyser what is Cyser an to God what is Gods.

I know of NO church that pays taxes. One of the ones in town bought a building I had just rented for a small business........ put me out on the street they did, after I finnished refinnishing the place. That sure gave me a bad taste for sure...... But I do still beleave in God.

JB:}

[sqkcrk]

But I do still beleave in God.
JB:}

:) That's nice. I beleave in you too. :)

[Scrapfe]

...I'd also think you'd have a hard time convicing an Islamic Jihadist that I or my wife...pray to the same god he does....

If I remember my Koran Christians are allowed to keep their religion if you pay extra tax. As for your wife there are two basic different teachings about this in Islam. One pretty much lumps Jews and Christians together and the other wing of Islam condemns Jews to automatic death sentences for not siding with Mohamed when he was exiled from Medina in the 8th. century.

[Keith Benson]

I don't think that you've got any idea what god I pray too.


He does.

I'd also think you'd have a hard time convicing an Islamic Jihadist that I or my wife (a Jew)pray to the same god he does....

Convincing you or a jihadist or your wife is irrelevant. If you follow the development and evolution of the religions mentioned above, all three pray to the same god. If that leaves a bad taste in your mouth I am sorry, but that's history.

Keith

[sqkcrk]

He does.



Convincing you or a jihadist or your wife is irrelevant. If you follow the development and evolution of the religions mentioned above, all three pray to the same god. If that leaves a bad taste in your mouth I am sorry, but that's history.

Keith

Thanks for the back up Keith. I thought ( I won't say prayed, who's listening?) someone would understand.

Another thing most folks find hard to believe is that we are all atheist.

[Bodo]

/sigh you missed the point! It doesn't matter what I think. As long as people are willing to kill me(you, whoever) b/c I don't worship Allah or the great spaghetti monster, not much really matters...

[Bodo]

.

Another thing most folks find hard to believe is that we are all atheist.

Now THAT, you need to explain.

[dragonfly]

Now THAT, you need to explain.

I tend to agree with James Hillman's assessment of this subject. In his book I recently read, "A Terrible Love of War", he basically states that Westerners, regardless of the faith we profess, and even those who profess to be strictly atheistic, are psychologically Christian.

Btw, when I first posted that I had started this book, I highly underrated it. It turned out to be one of the most interesting books I've ever read. I highly recommend it for getting a different perspective on the reasons for war.

[Keith Benson]

Now THAT, you need to explain.

We are all atheists, some just go one god further.

Keith

[Keith Benson]

/sigh you missed the point! It doesn't matter what I think. As long as people are willing to kill me(you, whoever) b/c I don't worship Allah or the great spaghetti monster, not much really matters...

I don't think the point was missed - everyone gets that, but some of the facts were definitely not strait. So we straitened them. I don't think anyone disagrees with you that there are some folks out there willing to kill anyone who will not convert. And not just Muslims, though they seem to be acting on this belief more than anyone else nowadays.

The point that was made was that the Being that Muslims worship as Allah, is he/she/it exists is the same being that Jews and Christians worship. They may worship differently, have a different take on things, but the god at the center of all this would be the same individual.

Keith

[Keith Benson]

I tend to agree with James Hillman's assessment of this subject. In his book I recently read, "A Terrible Love of War", he basically states that Westerners, regardless of the faith we profess, and even those who profess to be strictly atheistic, are psychologically Christian.

I would argue that Christians are psychologically westerners. Much of our psychological makeup is based on pre-christian western thinking, and christian doctrine incorporates much of this. With it's own twist of course, every religion does that, if only to set itself apart fro the others.

Btw, when I first posted that I had started this book, I highly underrated it. It turned out to be one of the most interesting books I've ever read. I highly recommend it for getting a different perspective on the reasons for war.

Mmm - I shall have to pick it up - sounds interesting.

Keith

[sqkcrk]

Now THAT, you need to explain.

Some times I forget to type in the rest of the thought. My mind fools me into thinking that I did type it.

We are all atheists when it comes to other peoples God(s). So, since there are more Gods than the one(s) that you (you inclusively speaking) recognize, by circumstance we are all atheistic.

But, besides the blasphemis chastising or provoking of his own God, the minister in question refered to a religion as a God and a nongod (Buddha) as a God. I'm sure that his theological credentials are greater than mine, since I didn't go to seminary school. But I question whether he actually learned anything about religions other than his own.

[sqkcrk]

he basically states that Westerners, regardless of the faith we profess, and even those who profess to be strictly atheistic, are psychologically Christian.


"psychologically Christian"? Some will see the following as critical, but it's not. I believe that it's more like Stockholm Syndrome. We are so inundated w/ Christian symbols, references and such that we can't help thinking and acting "Christian". At least appearing so to outsiders. People of other faiths and countries.

To this very day, even though I am not a Catholic or Christian, when I hurt myself, such as hitting my thumb w/ a hammer or being stung in a particularly painful place, I'll yell or say "God ____ it." or "Jesus Christ". Now if that ain't brainwashing I don't know what is.

Farce of habit?

[dragonfly]

Much of our psychological makeup is based on pre-christian western thinking, and christian doctrine incorporates much of this. Keith

More along the lines of what Hillman thinks, if I am translating correctly, is that western Christian thought is post-christian thinking, beginning when the Romans decided to convert pagans. I wouldln't go as far as to say you "should" read the book, but it is certainly an interesting look, from the standpoint of a Jungian psychologist, at the motivations and reasons humans have a "need" for war.

[dragonfly]

[quote=sqkcrk;361179 I believe that it's more like Stockholm Syndrome. We are so inundated w/ Christian symbols, references and such that we can't help thinking and acting "Christian".

[/quote]

Do you use the same critique with all religions, or do you just have a disdain for Christianity? Is it because it has a personal effect on you, or because you don't think any human should have a need for some kind of mythology and religion?

[Keith Benson]

Do you use the same critique with all religions, or do you just have a disdain for Christianity? Is it because it has a personal effect on you, or because you don't think any human should have a need for some kind of mythology and religion?

What disdain? I think he was reflecting on his personal experience in a largely christian society. Of course it would be different if one were in an area where another religion was dominant.

Keith

[dragonfly]

What disdain? I think he was reflecting on his personal experience in a largely christian society. Of course it would be different if one were in an area where another religion was dominant.

Keith

I didn't say he disdains Christianity. I asked him if he does. It makes no difference to me.

[Keith Benson]

I didn't say he disdains Christianity. I asked him if he does. It makes no difference to me.

Gotcha

Keith

[John F]

We are all atheists when it comes to other peoples God(s). So, since there are more Gods than the one(s) that you (you inclusively speaking) recognize, by circumstance we are all atheistic.

This is a gross misgeneralization of the term atheist.

theist - belief in deity(s).
a - non
mono - one
poli - many

atheist - do not believe in deity(s).
monotheist - belief in one deity.
politheist - belief in many deities.

I do understand your point though. In common language atheist is considered to have two meanings, one of which is the active disbelieve of gods. To illustrate:

I do not believe in any gods. (rejection of theism)
God does not exist. (affirmation of the nonexistence of gods)

are two different messages attributed in common language to atheism and in fact are reflected in the common definition.

You are taking that second phrase and attaching a bit:

Your god does not exist.

And in that arguing that even theists are atheistic.

[walking bird]

Good point, sqkcrk. Christian vernacular has been inculcated into American idiom, to the point where even an atheist like me freely utters the exact phrases you note, (and plenty of others).

I don't think of it as a bad thing, or a good thing. Just something that's bound to happen. After all, we also say, "That takes a lot of chutzpah," and "Oy vey" (or at least, we do out in California). We're an equal opportunity language :)

[sqkcrk]

Do you use the same critique with all religions, or do you just have a disdain for Christianity? Is it because it has a personal effect on you, or because you don't think any human should have a need for some kind of mythology and religion?

Were I born and raised in a country where Christianity was not the predominant religion and I was not of the predominant religion I imagine that I might have the same opinion as I do about the circumstances in which I find myself.

I'm sorry if you were offended. Don't presume that I have disdain for Christianity. I don't. I hope you can understand that because it seems as though you can look at things objectively.

I do understand that peopole seem to have a need for mythology and religion. What's the difference?

It's not Christianity that I have a problem with. But, at times, it is Christians that I have a problem with. Or persons who pass themselves off as Christians. What the minister that I refered to in the first post did didn't seem Christian to me. Did it you?

[sqkcrk]

Good point, sqkcrk. Christian vernacular has been inculcated into American idiom, to the point where even an atheist like me freely utters the exact phrases you note, (and plenty of others).

I don't think of it as a bad thing, or a good thing. Just something that's bound to happen. After all, we also say, "That takes a lot of chutzpah," and "Oy vey" (or at least, we do out in California). We're an equal opportunity language :)

Yeah, that's what I meant. In my not so diplomatic style. Maybe the term "brainwashing" was a bit over board. I like your "inculcated into the American idiom".

"atheist like me"? Are you a Dawkins type atheist? Didn't he say that he wouldn't go so far as to say that there is no God because he couldn't commit himself to that absolute?

[dragonfly]

I'm sorry if you were offended. Don't presume that I have disdain for Christianity. I don't. I hope you can understand that because it seems as though you can look at things objectively.



Oh no Mark. I'm not offended at all. Have you ever seen me prescribe to any particular religious view?



I do understand that peopole seem to have a need for mythology and religion. What's the difference?



I did not imply, as far as I know , that there is a difference. I believe religion is present in all of us to some extent. Maybe not knowingly, and maybe not with the same exact belief, but there all the same.



What the minister that I refered to in the first post did didn't seem Christian to me. Did it you?

To be honest with you (really), I didn't even notice. I don't see a person's religious beliefs as anything that is a measure of their worthiness or character. It's the same as I've previously stated about the color issue.

[Jeffrey Todd]

Muslims say they worship the same god as Christians. I do not know of any Christians who say they worship the same god as Muslims. Because they don't.