Tom Brokaw Health care Question [Archive] - Beesource Beekeeping Forums

tecumseh

10-10-2008, 07:11 AM

I must have missed something in translation here keith... why would the answer matter one way or the other... not that dialogue may be important of and by itself.

to address bodo concern... it is a bit difficult to pursue happiness when you are sick.

**snip**
1) A RIGHT

tecumseh:
well the flip side of this is... because government can not impose rules and organize health care to some degree (quite obviously health care is already socialized to some degree) your doctor has A RIGHT to take everything you own the next time you are extremely ill.

so why after working like a dog each and every day of your life is it the HEALTH BID'NESS RIGHT to own everything you own the first time you are extremely sick?

perhaps keith you THINK you have paid for all health care possibilities... my guess is you health insurance provider can afford a better lawyer than yourself.

Hobie

10-10-2008, 07:31 AM

Is health care a ....

1) A RIGHT.... No, despite what many people think. Right now I am uninsured and no one seems to care except me.

2) A PRIVLEDGE.... Yes

3) A RESPONSIBILTY... Whose responsibility?

dragonfly

10-10-2008, 08:52 AM

Bodo

10-10-2008, 09:37 AM

to address bodo concern... it is a bit difficult to pursue happiness when you are sick.

You have the right to pursue happiness. It's not a guarantee. Health care isn't a right. I'm sorry, but I think you're wrong.

magnet-man

10-10-2008, 03:45 PM

Is health care a ....

1) A RIGHT.... No, despite what many people think. Right now I am uninsured and no one seems to care except me.

Hobie, I do. Unfortunately I don't see health care changing much in the US. Too many people are making a living from the health care industry. I heard on the radio the other day that change will be hard to do because every dollar in health care expense is someone’s health care income and those people are very powerful. They are doctors, drug companies and insurance companies. Also many people think their slice of the health care pie will be smaller if everyone is covered.

People who lose their coverage are usually the people who don't have a lot of political clout.

dragonfly

10-10-2008, 03:51 PM

those people are very powerful. They are doctors, drug companies and insurance companies.

There are some doctors who are making a very nice living. I personally know 7 doctors who have closed their private practice because they couldn't make a living doing it. They work as contractors with hospitals now, and are being paid salaries. There seems to be a general idea that health care industry businesses are getting rich, and no doubt some do make alot of money, but that's not always the case.

Sundance

10-10-2008, 04:58 PM

Definitely a responsibility!! The nations... it remains
absolutely deplorable to be the only industrialized
nation on the planet without universal health care!

Having health care tied to your job puts American
business at a huge disadvantage. Toyota does not
have to "build in" employee health care costs into
each Japanese built car. Here it is something like
$2000 per car.

cow pollinater

10-10-2008, 05:17 PM

perhaps keith you THINK you have paid for all health care possibilities... my guess is you health insurance provider can afford a better lawyer than yourself.

What an unfortunate circumstance that there is so much truth in this statement. It pays to do your homework and be willing to pay a small fortune for reliable coverage. My wife has a rare type of nereupathy and so far the only concern from our insurance provider has been that we get the BEST treatment at any cost. They have shelled out with a smile.
Thank the Good Lord that I had the foresight to see my families health as MY responsibility and get it covered when I did.

sqkcrk

10-10-2008, 05:35 PM

The last debate Tom Brokaw asked the question.

Is health care a ....

1) A RIGHT

2) A PRIVLEDGE

3) A RESPONSIBILTY

I myself, think it's a responsibilty.

1) A Right? Yup, you have the right to take care of your own health care. This from a guy who hasn't had health insurance for the last three years of total self employment and the 20 years previous to that only had health insurance during the six months that I was employed by NYS.

2) A Priveledge? Yes. Those who can pay for health care, or can afford the insurance, are priveledged to have it.

3) A Responsibility? Our own health care is our own responsibility. When I was a child, I ,and my health care, was my parents responsibility. Since being an adult I'm responsible for myself and those who I'm responsible for, my wife and children.

Unless someone else wants to send me free health care insurance. :)

Gene Weitzel

10-10-2008, 05:38 PM

I say it is both a right and a responsibility:
Access to affordable health care should be a right. It is ones own responsibilty to avail themselves of that access.

What does it say about our society (ethically) when there is so much profiteering based on the suffering and misery of another human being?

Now how does that oath go? "First do no harm...." Somehow I think that the true meaning of this oath completely escapes many health care professionals today. They should probably change it to say "First show me your money...."

cow pollinater

10-10-2008, 05:45 PM

Unless someone else wants to send me free health care insurance. :)

Come on out to California Mark. I pay for tons of people who think it should be free... At least I like you!

sqkcrk

10-10-2008, 06:34 PM

Come on out to California Mark. I pay for tons of people who think it should be free... At least I like you!

Awww shucks, cp. Now ya got me turnin' red. :)

Galaxy

10-10-2008, 06:56 PM

There are some doctors who are making a very nice living. I personally know 7 doctors who have closed their private practice because they couldn't make a living doing it. They work as contractors with hospitals now, and are being paid salaries. There seems to be a general idea that health care industry businesses are getting rich, and no doubt some do make alot of money, but that's not always the case.You are precisely correct. Last spring I checked into a motel in Florida and the desk clerk was a moonlighting doctor who had closed his private practice because he could not make a living at it. He was in the process of contracting with a hospital.

It is truly sad that a highly-trained doctor has to work a motel to make a living because of the red-tape and bureaucracy that the government has introduced into health care with Medicaid and Medicare. Obama will only make it worse.

Galaxy

10-10-2008, 07:26 PM

The last debate Tom Brokaw asked the question.

Is health care a ....

1) A RIGHT

2) A PRIVLEDGE

3) A RESPONSIBILTY The answer is simple. It is a responsibility. It is not a right.

To say that it is a right means nothing practically. You can scream all day that health care is your right. But, you will not receive health care unless someone charitably gives it to you or you force someone to give it to you.

You cannot ethically have a right that someone else must be forced to give you. None of the "rights" in the Constitution are "rights" where someone else must perform, at their expense, a service in order for you to have that right. They are all "rights" which you are have a right to pursue and government is not allowed to deny these rights to you. For example see:
"endowed with unalienable rights, among them are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
The Bill of Rights http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

cow pollinater

10-10-2008, 07:43 PM

Awww shucks, cp. Now ya got me turnin' red. :)

Then stay there... I've been red for a long time now and California ain't for us.:D A conservative in California is moderate at best just about anywhere else in the nation.

cow pollinater

10-10-2008, 07:53 PM

To say that it is a right means nothing practically. You can scream all day that health care is your right. But, you will not receive health care unless someone charitably gives it to you or you force someone to give it to you.
You cannot ethically have a right that someone else must be forced to give you. None of the "rights" in the Constitution are "rights" where someone else must perform, at their expense, a service in order for you to have that right.

Clap clap clap... Now how do we go about making people healthy and self sufficient so that the current state of dependancy doesn't continue? I don't have the nerve to watch people suffer even if it's from their own stupidity...

Correction... I can watch people suffer from their own stupidity but not when their children are involved. How do we change the mind-set?

Oldbee

10-10-2008, 09:11 PM

"Agreed. I don't see health care in the Consitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".- bodo.

It's right there!..... Life!!

In 1787 medical science or the practice of medicine [health care] was practically in its infancy and very primitive at best, compared to what we have today. Everybody, rich or poor, was pretty much 'in the same boat' if they got sick or were seriously injured. Almost 100 years later during the Civil War, they were still doing amputations without anesthesia.

The Bill of Rights....First Ammendment:

"Congress shall make no law.....or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES".

dragonfly

10-10-2008, 09:17 PM

"
TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES".

Well, the problem with that is that one would be redressing grievances to those who pay the bills. The government is only the vehicle to get monies that other people are paying. I don't think the right to free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press are costing the taxpayer.

Eaglerock

10-10-2008, 09:43 PM

It is truly sad that a highly-trained doctor has to work a motel to make a living because of the red-tape and bureaucracy that the government has introduced into health care with Medicaid and Medicare. Obama will only make it worse.

So what you are saying is, the last 8 years under Bush, this is when you met this man, so how can you, with out giving him a chance, state that Obama will make it worse, if in fact, it is already there. :doh:

Eaglerock

10-10-2008, 09:46 PM

OOhhh, that's a tough one.

Is health care a ....

1) A RIGHT- no

2) A PRIVLEDGE- no

3) A RESPONSIBILTY - yes, if you desire to receive the benefits.

I have another question. Is it a "right" not to die? (this is a trick question;))

Should it be a right, to be able to die?

We are more humane to our animals than we are to ourselves.

Galaxy

10-10-2008, 09:46 PM

I don't think the right to free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press are costing the taxpayer.Or, the right to life as it is meant in the Constitution (i.e. the government can't take your life away without due process.)

It is ethically and morally wrong to take someone else's freedom away to enforce one's sense of a "right" or entitlement. When one asserts that they have a right to something (without full payment) that requires the services of another, one is making the service provider a slave or serf. The Constitution should be, above all, a protector of freedom.

Required insurance (the pooling of risks) and health savings accounts (to eliminate some third-party payment and thus over use of health care) not government (single provider) would improve our health care availability.

Keith Jarrett

10-10-2008, 10:01 PM

It is ethically and morally wrong to take someone else's freedom away to enforce one's sense of a "right" or entitlement. .

Very well said

Galaxy

10-10-2008, 10:04 PM

So what you are saying is, the last 8 years under Bush, this is when you met this man, so how can you, with out giving him a chance, state that Obama will make it worse, if in fact, it is already there. :doh:All one has to do is remember what the Democrats wanted to do with health care under Clinton, look at the history of the Medicaid/Medicare program, and to correctly realize that what Obama says he will do will not be what happens. What will happen, if the Democrats are in control, is a massive, inefficient, and costly Federal bureaucracy that will massively interfere with your health care. Things can get much worse in health care. :doh:

Derek

10-10-2008, 10:14 PM

It is truly sad that a highly-trained doctor has to work a motel to make a living because of the red-tape and bureaucracy that the government has introduced into health care with Medicaid and Medicare. Obama will only make it worse.

It's not really sad at all. I like d/f. Know 4 Doctors personally. 3 of the 4 have closed their practice and work for a Hospital now. And it had nothing to do with government policy. Though they still make really, really good money. The problem with the 3 is they are so book/medical smart it makes your head spin. But they are the dumbest people I know when it comes to common/business since. Having a private practice is running a bussiness and being a Doctor at the same time. A lot can't do both.

Keith Jarrett

10-10-2008, 10:36 PM

Having a private practice is running a bussiness and being a Doctor at the same time. A lot can't do both.

That sounds like alot of keepers I know. :)

Derek

10-10-2008, 10:43 PM

That sounds like alot of keepers I know. :)

lol.

Hey! What are you doing posting? Get back under that bus! :D

Jeffrey Todd

10-10-2008, 11:58 PM

It is a sad day when we must even DEBATE health care being a "right".
Now I see why Obama is so popular; he gives people what they want, that is, he removes responsibility from the individual and gives it (and power) over to the government. He is a Socialist being elected by a nation of Socialists. Woe to the Individual.

Galaxy

10-11-2008, 08:23 AM

The problem with the 3 is they are so book/medical smart it makes your head spin. But they are the dumbest people I know when it comes to common/business since. Yes, kinda like Ron Paul when he advocates the gold standard and the absolutist free market stuff?

dragonfly

10-11-2008, 11:21 AM

And it had nothing to do with government policy. Though they still make really, really good money. The problem with the 3 is they are so book/medical smart it makes your head spin. But they are the dumbest people I know when it comes to common/business since.

Not true. Declining medicare and insurance reimbursements have made staying in business difficult for a fair number of doctors. It's not a lack of business sense.

Eaglerock

10-11-2008, 11:45 AM

Doctors have an Office Staff that does his/her book work. He just does the doctoring.

Which brings me to this question:

Does a doctor, doctor a doctor
according to the doctors' doctrine.
Or does the doctor doing the doctoring,
doctor the doctor according to his own doctrine.

sqkcrk

10-12-2008, 12:17 PM