Natural Gas a Solution?????

[Sundance]

We've all been inundated with the ads touting CNG
as motor fuel (compressed natural gas).

I just can't see the logic in this at all????

1. The cost to implement CNG filling stations nation
wide would be enormous!!

2. I'm not overly comfortable having a cylinder of
CNG next to me.

3. How many MPG does it produce???

The answer to me is electric cars and battery technology.

Natural gas is indeed abundant and should be used to
fuel electric generating plants.

Every present gasoline station today could be upgraded
to electric quick charge stations for lots less than CNG.

Love to hear good reasons for the CNG to motor fuel
concept.

[dragonfly]

Your #2 concern is what I wonder about most. Additionally, although we have "vast" reserves, I don't know what that actually converts to in ability to meet demand.

Certainly Pickens thinks this is the best thing since sliced bread, but being the skeptic that I am, I question his motives. Even if he motive is greed, though, the question remains how much demand can be met with our available supply. Gas wells are popping up here like popcorn, because this area is over the Barnett shale. On a local level, just as an aside, the town nearest me recently changed their contract with electric power companies. The new contract is with one who uses natural gas. The electric rates doubled, and there was widespread anger among locals.

What it boils down to, is that I need to learn alot more than I currently know about CNG, but I'm interested in looking into any alternatives available.

[Sundance]

From an electrical generation stand point CNG
makes a lot of sense to me. Natural gas is all
over the shale areas and generating plants
could be placed all over. Smaller than the
mega coal plants but feeding the grid none
the less.

It just doesn't make sense as motor fuel to
me.

[MapMan]

Your #2 concern is what I wonder about most.

When you check out the modern CNG cylinders which are used, you'll not be as concerned, as they can stand some massive stresses and impact without rupturing.

Problems I see for widespread CNG use:

(1) differences in fuel efficiencies vs. gasoline
(2) Additional weight and space needed to hold CNG cylinders versus gasoline tanks
(3) design and development of vehicles dedicated to CNG use only will allow for maximum efficiencies - dual fuel engines have not proven to utilize the CNG to best fuel efficiencies and conversions are costly
(4) cost of refueling stations
(5) safety at the refilling stations - could be catastrophic disasters (I have observed some idiots-in-action refilling their gas-powered vehicles - I don't want to be near them when they use a highly flammable compressed gas!)

MM

[dragonfly]

When you check out the modern CNG cylinders which are used, you'll not be as concerned, as they can stand some massive stresses and impact without rupturing.

MM

Thanks MM. I have been seeing visions in my head of bodies burned beyond recognition in auto accidents, then huge class action lawsuits abounding, and an entire industry being brought to its knees.

[Derek]

Back in 04. The Dallas PD and the Ft. Worth PD. both had a least 100+ cars running on CNG. They were scaped not long after due to "safety concerns" (not sure what they were exactly), and lots of mechanical problems.

[drobbins]

a LOT of homes in this country are heated with natural gas
those folks could fill up at home and not need a gas station
I agree, for the rest of us the cost of building the distribution system is cost prohibitive but if you get the folks with gas in their home to stop using gasoline it greatly reduces demand

Dave

[Sundance]

a LOT of homes in this country are heated with natural gas
those folks could fill up at home and not need a gas station
I agree, for the rest of us the cost of building the distribution system is cost prohibitive but if you get the folks with gas in their home to stop using gasoline it greatly reduces demand

Dave

Wouldn't you need an impressive compressor to turn
natural gas into CNG??? And every home would need
one???

I know for sure most every home has electrical outlets
that require zero additional investment.

[drobbins]

hmm,
I hate to admit I hadn't thought about that
I'm not advocating that approach it's just the argument I've heard
compressing a gas into a liquid is indeed a non-trivial process
I wonder how many PSI CNG has to be under in a tank?
interesting point

Dave

[Hillside]

I think it's somewhere in the range of 3000 psi.

[Sundance]

Turning CNG into LNG (liquefied) is even more
involved........... I don't think standard vehicles
would (or could) use LNG...... it has to be kept
extremely cold if I remember right.

[drobbins]

ok, now my ignorance of all issues natural gas is hanging out
at what pressure is CNG?
at what pressure is natural gas supplied to home?
I don't expect you to know the answer, rhetorical questions
LNG wouldn't have to be cold if it's at a sufficient pressure but I don't know what that pressure is
think propane, it's liquid and is in a can on my back porch

Dae

[Sundance]

I think there is a major difference in CNG and
Propane in liquid form. LNG requires hard core
insulation to transport safely.

-261 F is the temp to liquifiy natural gas......
not sure on pressures,,,,,,, I'll dig.

[Sundance]

Here's a cut and paste explanation.

Natural gas can be made into three forms. One kind is the low-pressure form you use to cook or heat your home. It comes from the underground pipe from the gas company. Another form is compressed natural gas (CNG). This form is compressed into high-pressure fuel cylinders to power a car or truck. It comes from special CNG fuel stations. The third form is liquefied natural gas (LNG). LNG is made by refrigerating natural gas to condense it into a liquid. The liquid form is much more dense than natural gas or CNG. It has much more energy for the amount of space it takes up. So, much more energy can be stored in the same amount of space on a car or truck. That means LNG is good for large trucks that need to go a long distance before they stop for more fuel.

Liquefied natural gas is made by refrigerating natural gas to minus 260 degrees Fahrenheit (260 degrees below zero!) to condense it into a liquid. This is called liquefaction. The liquefaction process removes most of the water vapor, butane, propane, and other trace gases, that are usually included in ordinary natural gas. The resulting LNG is usually more than 98 percent pure methane. As this was first written (in 1999), Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Mack and Navistar sell heavy-duty natural gas engines that can operate on LNG.

http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/transportation/LNG.html

[drobbins]

hmm,

I did a little work one time on some equipment to condense air into various liquids, liquid oxygen and nitrogen
this gadget compressed air which made it get hot
then it ran it through a heat exchanger to cool it down (removing energy)
then it repeated the process
and then again
after a while they had removed enough energy to liquefy the gas
different gases condensed out at different points so you could separate them
sort of the opposite of the process you posted but achieve the same thing
not a cheap process

Dave

[BjornBee]

Natural gas as a fuel makes the most sense in using it for public transportation.

Natural gas is limited to some degree. It certainly is not an endless supply.

At this time, 30% of natural gas goes directly for electric generation. If we could through clean coal or nuclear power plants, free up this 30% of natural gas, we could use it for expanding the use in the public sector. There is no need for CNG stations across the country. No need for the average consumer to even get involved. But to simply burn natural gas for electrical generation, is about the worst way to use this greener footprint fuel. By freeing up this 30% it could be used to get dirtier vehicles, in cities and poor air quality areas, off the road.

Natural gas is being used for electrical generation due to regulations of coal plants and this country's ignorant stance on building nuke plants, to which the rest of the world has no problems with.

[drobbins]

Bjorn

nuclear and "clean coal" are used for base load generation
gas is used to fire gas turbines to provide peak load power
apples vs oranges
that's not what we're talking about
what are the technical issues involved with using gas to run vehicles?
how much do you have to compress it?
how do you do it?
what does it cost?
inquiring minds want to know

Dave

[Bodo]

It's not THE solution, but I think it's useful as a PART of the 'all of the above' that's going to be needed to get the US off of foreign sources of Energy.

[BjornBee]

Golly Gee Dave...sorry my input did not meet with your approval. Most would just ignore a post off topic or perhaps less than one expected.

The question was about how are we going to have stations across the country for natural gas. And I gave my opinion. That will not happen. But if we could free up the 30% of WASTED gas due to using it for electrical generation, then it could be used for public transportation in an expanded capacity. You only need key locations for city vehicles, buses, etc., for that kind of setup.

The question was asked....is Natural gas the solution. And I'll suggest....No!

And I don't care if it is apples or oranges....using 30% of our natural gas for nothing but electrical generation does not make sense. And I'll reserve my right to change the subject, add to the discussion or anything else....all without your approval.

For those lesser minds who could care less about at what temp gas "liguefaction" happens, maybe my comments mean something to someone else.

[Sundance]

CNG for public transport makes sense to me.......

CNG for everyday driving does not...........

Electric cars seem to be the "quick and easy"
answer. As the grid "cleans up" the electric cars
do as well. Regardless of the grid inputs.

My point is that the ads we're getting plastered
with just don't make sense. Even if you have
large natural gas holdings...... Pickens seems
to be way off point here.

[Sundance]

It's not THE solution, but I think it's useful as a PART of the 'all of the above' that's going to be needed to get the US off of foreign sources of Energy.

No disagreement here........... but it does not seem to
be even part of the solution for auto transportation.

For electric generation....... For sure.

For public transport......... Sounds good.

Cars and trucks............... seems foolish.

[Scrapfe]

Sundance said: We've all been inundated with the ads touting CNG as motor fuel...I just can't see the logic in this...The cost to implement CNG filling stations...would be enormous!!

Scrap iron answered:The weigh of the fuel tank needed to keep CNG contained would be counter productive in and of its self.

Sundance said: I'm not...comfortable having a cylinder of CNG next to me.

Scrap iron answered: I'm a pretty big guy so that makes three of us.

Sundance said: How many MPG does it produce???

Scrap iron replied: The BTU potential of CNG is less than either fuel oil, gasoline, LPG, etc. Short version MPG suxs.

Sundance said: Natural gas is indeed abundant and should be used to
fuel electric generating plants.

Scrap iron replied: Of all the carbon based fuels CNG, NG, or LNG is the least poluting. And the most BTU efficient 85% of potential recovered in electrical generation. It is also the one fossil fuel I feel we can least afford to burn.

Sundance said he believed little old ladies from Pasadena, Ca. driving electric cars was the way to go, and that every present gasoline station today could be upgraded to electric quick charge stations for lots less than CNG.

Scrap iron maintains that this is not feasible without a large increase in nuclear electric generating capacity.

Sundance said: Love to hear good reasons for the CNG to motor fuel concept.

Scrap iron replied: Up side; An internal combustion engine running on CNG will last almost forever zip pollution (just a little fly ash). A CNG engine has zilch, wear. Upside III, T. Boone Pickens controls a lot of natural gas

Down side; A Truck or car running on CNG has trouble getting out of its own way. Mileage is dismal, Still need a gallon or two of cranking warming up gasoline every morning to awaken the beast, think of it as mechanical caffeine. CNG is hard on exhaust valves and seats (to little octane) I guess you could do what we did with Gasoline 70 + years ago and add lead to CNG. Think sodium filled valves and hardened seats. During cold weather difficulty in cranking due to poor/slow fuel vaporization.

You live in an agricultural area Sundance, think about all that is objectionable about the old LP tractors and then picture a LP tractor run or CNG. It can't plow. Oh, did I mention the mileage was dismal? Need many more filling stations to service all the short legged CNG cars & trucks. Just converting existing gasoline stations won't hack it.

Sundance, I would say you hit the nail on the head!!!

[Sundance]

Good list Scrap........ some great points. I was unaware
that the power curve was that much worse than LPG.
I knew it was less than gas or diesel.

I'll keep eyeing that little old lady driving the electric
car.:D

Seems the EV1 made by GM (and killed by GM) would be
mighty fine to have in the garage about now.:doh:

http://americanhistory.si.edu/ONTHEMOVE/collection/object_1303.html