All the talk about sustainability

[dragonfly]

Over the past 30 or so years, there is increasing talk about sustainability, from sustaining the environment, sustaining wildlife and ecosystems, to sustaining quality of life. What I don't see is any discussion about the sustainability of the survival of our country. We are spending ourselves into poverty and acting as if there is no end to the supply of money required for doing it. Between ever-increasing social programs, defense budgets, and foreign aid, plus all the other less costly federal expenditures, we cannot sustain ourselves indefinitely. Few people in the general populace seem aware of this, and our government appears to be either in denial or flat out ignoring it. I don't stay awake at night worrying about it, but at some point, it will come to a forced halt out of necessity. What do you guys have to say about it? What do you see as solutions? Are there any workable solutions?

[Sundance]

I have long supported the concept of sustainability. To
me it it the only possible answer to our problems, on
both the USA front as well as globally.

To continue to base our economy on growth will come
to an ugly end (maybe it's here???). Growth requires
adhering to the fallacy that all resources are infinite.

I have a link to Plan B which does a fair job in outlining
what sustainability could mean for us. It is neither dire,
or does it mean a downgrade in quality of life. In fact, I
would argue that the quality of life would increase a
great deal.

Good topic dragonfly in light of the current economic "crisis".

[sqkcrk]

Growth requires adhering to the fallacy that all resources are infinite.


Or maybe just the assumption that we have a right to those resources? And others don't?

[dragonfly]

To continue to base our economy on growth will come
to an ugly end (maybe it's here???). Growth requires
adhering to the fallacy that all resources are infinite.



I think I see where you're coming from, but what does that say about our current federal expenditures which are pretty much set in stone, as the law currently works, and there is no forseeable way to cut federal funding programs? If growth stops, then so does all the tax revenues that have been increasing. We can't stop growth and continue to fund all this stuff. See what I'm getting at?

[Sundance]

I think I see where you're coming from, but what does that say about our current federal expenditures which are pretty much set in stone, as the law currently works, and there is no forseeable way to cut federal funding programs? If growth stops, then so does all the tax revenues that have been increasing. We can't stop growth and continue to fund all this stuff. See what I'm getting at?

Agreed......... Priority's must be set. Federal programs must
be cut. Especially the military IMO. But it is really more about
resources.

[dragonfly]

I personally think it must all be cut, and as much from the domestic programs as military (although I would severely cut that also). The primary reason our social programs gravely concern me is that they are unending and ever-increasing, and there is a rapidly growing retirement community. I'm going to link a publication below that is rather disturbing, and it only concerns the social security and Medicare programs. On top of that, we have other domestic welfare and aid programs.
Here's an excerpt:

The financial difficulties facing Social Security and Medicare pose enormous challenges. The sooner these challenges are addressed, the more varied and less disruptive their solutions can be. We urge the public to engage in informed discussion and policymakers to think creatively about the changing needs and preferences of working and retired Americans. A national conversation and timely political action are essential to ensure that Social Security and Medicare continue to play a critical role in the lives of all Americans.

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html

[Gene Weitzel]

There was a time when there was no such thing as "retirement", you worked as long as you were able. Your children were your future, they took care of you when you no longer could (no matter what it took). It is just more of this "entitlement mentality" to think that we are "owed" a cushy existence in our "golden years". I could care less what happens with all of the government "social programs", I don't have any faith in any of them. "Retirement" is not in my vocabulary, I will work until I drop!

[MapMan]

There was a time when there was no such thing as "retirement", you worked as long as you were able. Your children were your future, they took care of you when you no longer could (no matter what it took). It is just more of this "entitlement mentality" to think that we are "owed" a cushy existence in our "golden years". I could care less what happens with all of the government "social programs", I don't have any faith in any of them. "Retirement" is not in my vocabulary, I will work until I drop!

Same here, Gene! What is this hoooey about retirement? Just got word yesterday that my father is going to tackle my mom's honeydew list now - he was working around 40hrs/wk up to three years ago, and then he dropped back to 25-30hrs/wk. Stepping out of the company he founded, leaving it my brothers' hands. He's 83 years old. My mom will keep him busy, if not - I have a lot of projects which need completion.;)

MM

[George Fergusson]

We are spending ourselves into poverty and acting as if there is no end to the supply of money required for doing it.

That is because there IS no end to the supply of money! This is because the money is created out of thin air, by borrowing, as much as is needed, when it's needed. In other words, it's debt-based money and as a result we have a debt-based economy. The only real downside to this system is that eventually, the people become hopelessly indebted and the banks end up owning everything but if you're a banker, it's a sweet deal :)

What do you see as solutions? Are there any workable solutions?

Real money.

Kill the Fed.

[dragonfly]

Real money.

Kill the Fed.

Wow, what a quaint idea. I love it.:)

[dragonfly]

There was a time when there was no such thing as "retirement", you worked as long as you were able.

Yeah, that's kind of how I see my future. I'll be limping around, barely able to breathe, proclaiming "Nah, I'm fine. Leave me alone. I've got work to do.";)

[Galaxy]

Real money.
Please explain what real money is and why our current money is not real. I'll bet you can't.

[Galaxy]

Wow, what a quaint idea. I love it.:)No it's not quaint, it's Paleo (early : primitive : archaic) :sleep:

[JPK1NH]

Agreed......... Priority's must be set. Federal programs must
be cut. Especially the military IMO. But it is really more about
resources.

So, considering the fact that the Chi Coms are going through a historically unprecedented military buildup http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/mar/03/china-speeds-pace-of-military-buildup/
Building a Blue Water Navy http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3223 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/1917167/Chinese-build-secret-nuclear-submarine-base.html
AND shooting down Satellites http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/01/18/china.missile/index.html

Not to mention Russia trying to reclaim its lost territories and influence by invading Georgia, cutting off fuel to Western EU and Ukraine http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/01/europe/web.0101gas.php Deploying a new generation of Nuclear Missiles, Subs and Bombers http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE4915BN20081002?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews&rpc=22&sp=true and is arming Venezuela and its loony tunes Socialist Leader Chavez.

Oh, and lets not forget about Iran and their ambitions for Nukes and Ballistic Missiles.

The only thing standing between your Freedom and Fascism from abroad is the US Military.

Think long and hard about this before you bite the hand that keeps you safe and sound.

[Galaxy]

I have long supported the concept of sustainability. Sure, for an individual decision it is fine.To
me it it the only possible answer to our problems, on
both the USA front as well as globally. Only possible? :no: How?
To continue to base our economy on growth will come
to an ugly end (maybe it's here???). Growth is progress, it is good, and is absolutely necessary. Without it we would have social turmoil leading to more wars and conflicts. All one has to do is look at the period of 1929 to 1945 to see a real-world "experiment" in no economic growth and the resulting turmoil. Folks get really upset when their path to a better life is blocked.

If you stop growth, do we leave the poor countries of the world at their present low standard of living. We could not stop growth even if we tried. Well, maybe Obama could. :doh:
Growth requires
adhering to the fallacy that all resources are infinite.Why? Almost all resources are substitutable. For example, steel in automobiles is being replaced by plastics, aluminum, and carbon/fiber composites.
I have a link to Plan B which does a fair job in outlining
what sustainability could mean for us. It is neither dire,
or does it mean a downgrade in quality of life. Is it naive?In fact, I
would argue that the quality of life would increase a
great deal. If that is true, it will not make any difference what your opinion or my opinion is of Plan B. It will happen. Let's let the folks decide whether they want it, rather than government.
Good topic dragonfly I agree.

[Sundance]

Think long and hard about this before you bite the hand that keeps you safe and sound.

You bought into the fear factor big time......... Is China to be
the new "Evil Empire"??

Little comparison for reality...........


US military budget 2008......... $623 Billion

China's 2008 (in US dollars)...... $59 Billion (#2 Globally,
a very, very distant 2nd to the USA)

You mentioned Iran....... 2003 est was $4.3 Billion

We could slash our budget to $100 Billion and still be
out spending China, Russia, and Iran combined.

Over kill is great, but really now........:no:

[Galaxy]

I have a link to Plan B
Is this the link? http://www.planb.com/ Or, is it this?
http://www.go2planb.com/?

EDIT: I see it now. The link is at the bottom of your posts. I'll look at it.

[JPK1NH]

You bought into the fear factor big time......... Is China to be
the new "Evil Empire"??

You mean despite the fact that they poison their own people, lock them up for protesting, have unprecedented corruption, pollution and absolutely no freedom let alone freedom of speech they are not an Evil Empire?

You mean that the crap they are pulling in Africa makes them good guys?

PAHLEASE!!! Wake up to reality dude....they were just busted trying to supply Africa with AK's via Libya within the last year.

Little comparison for reality...........


US military budget 2008......... $623 Billion

China's 2008 (in US dollars)...... $59 Billion (#2 Globally,
a very, very distant 2nd to the USA)

You mentioned Iran....... 2003 est was $4.3 Billion

We could slash our budget to $100 Billion and still be
out spending China, Russia, and Iran combined.

Whats the cost of labor and materials over there? Do the cost comparisons, combine them with the cost of doing business here and you get the Chi Coms doing an unprecedented buildup.....ask yourself Why?

Ask yourself Why Iran is trying to build a Nuke?

Ask yourself why Russia is building up Venezuela (oil)

Your argument doesn't hold water.

[Galaxy]

You mean that the crap they are pulling in Africa makes them good guys?

PAHLEASE!!! Wake up to reality dude....Your argument doesn't hold water.Yes, wake up.

I read this article, from London's Daily Mail newspaper, last weekend and it woke me up about what China is doing in Africa. Every American should read it. For anyone who cares about the plight of other people it is an interesting and very disturbing read.

How China has created a new slave empire in Africa (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1063198/PETER-HITCHENS-How-China-created-new-slave-empire-Africa.html)

This is what blackvoices.com thinks about the article.

http://www.blackvoices.com/blogs/2008/09/29/africa-chineese-relations/

[Sundance]

ROFLMAO................... you guys are great.

[Scrapfe]

That is because there IS no end to the supply of money...the money is created out of thin air, by borrowing...and the banks end up owning everything but if you're a banker, it's a sweet deal...Kill the Fed.

Wow George, the older you get the more you sound like a Conservative. Or at least a Jacksonian.

[Scrapfe]

Over the past 30 or so years, there is increasing talk about sustainability...sustaining wildlife and ecosystems...What I don't see is any discussion about the sustainability of the survival of our country...between social programs, defense...and foreign aid...we cannot sustain ourselves...Few people in the general populace seem aware of this...but at some point, it will come to a...halt out of necessity. What do you guys have to say about it?...

I say welcome to the age of circuses and bread. We get the government we deserve.

The discovery of the evolution of man, indeed the evolution and all animal species, is attributed to two 19th century scientist, Sir Charles Lyell and Charles Darwin. According to these two men, the evolution of Human Species followed different stages beginning with Australopithecus and continuing with homo habilis, homo erectus, homo Neanderthalensis, and today's homo sapiens. In this short essay we will only consider the last two species, homo Neanderthalensis and homo sapiens.

I often hear the term “sustainability” bat-ted around, pun intended. The last humans species to live a sustainable existence was Homo Neanderthalensis. When the last Neanderthal man shuffled off this mortal coil the Earth was still much like it was that cold ice age day when Neanderthal man first viewed it. This is what is meant by “sustainability.” A whopping lot of lot of good “sustainability” did Neanderthal man. They all died out in spite of it or because of it. My brothers and sisters on the left want to ignore the fact that we homo sapiens, indeed every plant, animal, and fungi on Earth are in a race… no I under spoke! My brothers and sisters on the left are in denial that every plant, animal and fungi on Earth are in a terrible desperate bloody struggle for survival as a species. If you as a society or as a species are not advancing you are stagnant. If you remain stagnant like Neanderthal man, the flora and fauna sphere will eventually engulf you.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I want to clear my conscience. I used to be a Sundance type. In the seventies and early eighties I even helped found a couple of Audubon Societies, hence my interest in birds. Forgive me father for I knew not what I did! Then I woke to the real goal of many of those in the extreme environmental movement. That goal is nothing less than the total extermination (preferably by attrition) of every human being living outside of a few mega metropolis. The last government to try this was Papa Joe Stalin’s. A serious study of the fall of the USSR will show its collapse was greatly helped along by the depopulation of the USSR’s hinterland in a misguided effort to foster what the commissars of Stalin’s time saw as “sustainability.” Ask a Ukrainian about Stalin's “sustainable” agriculture.

You are our sons or daughters...

and natives of the soil,

Don't fantasize about a rural lifestyle...

spare yourself the anguish...

save your heirs the tears and toil...

forget you fantasies of freedom...

conform, conform, cooonfooorm.....

Every year the Greens will try to erect greater and greater road blocks in your path in an effort to clear the land of humans in the misguided belief that less is more, I see it as regression or a return to savagery. The extreme environmentalist aim is to run you and your descendants off the land so they (the greenies) can establish nature reserves. The real purpose of these unnatural nature reserves is actually to harbor, expand, or re-introduce, dangerous or pest animal species into territory once colonized by humans in an effort to force more and more humans from the land in the name of “protecting” these dangerous or pest species. If you can not farm, ranch, log, bee keep, hunt, fur, fish, protect you family or eek out a living from the Earth because of pest or dangerous animal species, or laws enacted to "protect" them, how long can the sons and daughters native to the soil resist?

[JPK1NH]

Scrapfe, I largely agree with the point of your post.

The modern Environmental Movement (Movement is the right word in my opinion) is bent upon the decline/destruction of Man and Society.

They are not the Conservationists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries like John Miur, Teddy Roosevelt, Henry Thoreau.

Todays Environmental Movement is largely a bunch of kooks, criminals and complete whackjobs.

Unfortunately there are also good people that are associated with these groups and donate money to support their nutty agenda....most of which would NOT be associated with groups like the Sierra Club if they paid attention and were aware of the actions (Legal and otherwise) that these groups initiate and participate in.

I nixed my membership in the Sierra Club about 10 years ago and I watch them get nuttier and nuttier every year.

Today, most people donate to these groups because it makes them feel good and believe that they are doing good and can continue to live their lives the way they always have with 2-4 kids, a couple of cars and a 3000sq' home in the burbs.

Hate to break it to you but that isn't part of the long term plan that these groups have for us because they CANNOT achieve their goals without serious Population Control....think about that for a bit and let it settle in....

The Population of the US grew from ~200,000,000 to ~300,000,000 from the late 60's to today and is going to accelerate much faster with a greater population.....we really ARE on a unsustainable track strictly from a population and resource perspective and the Illegal Alien issue is a very large part of the problem.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265

[Sundance]

JPK............ calling others you disagree with names, is
not the answer.

We're supposed to keep this civil I thought?????????:scratch:

[JPK1NH]

JPK............ calling others you disagree with names, is
not the answer.

We're supposed to keep this civil I thought?????????:scratch:

Here are just a few examples of the kooks, criminals and whackjobs

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/general/news/story?id=3535369
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/03/06/eco-saboteur-briana-waters-found-guilty/
http://www.planetizen.com/node/6168
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/02/03/MN172435.DTL
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/05/oregon_man_sent.html

How many more references would you like?

[dragonfly]

In the spirit of full disclosure, I want to clear my conscience.


You are forgiven.;)



You are our sons or daughters...

and natives of the soil,

Don't fantasize about a rural lifestyle...

spare yourself the anguish...

save your heirs the tears and toil...

forget you fantasies of freedom...

conform, conform, cooonfooorm.....



Nice.:)

Interesting post. Thx for sharing your perspective.

[Galaxy]

You are forgiven.;)



Nice.:)

Interesting post. Thx for sharing your perspective.I agree.

[Eaglerock]

Government can spend more than they have, yet if we do, what would happen? If I make 50,000.00 income I can not spend 100,000.00 nor even 50,001.00 I could borrow the other 50,000.00 but I can't borrow 100,050,000.00 having a pmt of more than I can afford, or beyond my means.

Dragonfly: >We are spending ourselves into poverty and acting as if there is no end to the supply of money required for doing it. Between ever-increasing social programs, defense budgets, and foreign aid, plus all the other less costly federal expenditures, we cannot sustain ourselves indefinitely. Few people in the general populace seem aware of this, and our government appears to be either in denial or flat out ignoring it. I don't stay awake at night worrying about it, but at some point, it will come to a forced halt out of necessity. What do you guys have to say about it? What do you see as solutions? Are there any workable solutions?<

DragonFly for President!

[George Fergusson]

I say welcome to the age of circuses and bread. We get the government we deserve.

I agree completely.

I often hear the term “sustainability” bat-ted around, pun intended.

OK, so you're not too fond of the word "sustainable". How do you feel about the word "unsustainable"?

[dragonfly]

I agree completely.



OK, so you're not too fond of the word "sustainable". How do you feel about the word "unsustainable"?

Was that a :D question?

[dragonfly]

Government can spend more than they have, yet if we do, what would happen?


Since we don't have debtor's prison, you just get a bad credit rap and can't borrow money anymore except at a premium interest rate. With government, they can do what they want because they make the rules. I mean, what are we going to do? Give them a bad credit rating and tell the rest of the world not to make them any more loans? It's a travesty.

[Galaxy]

How do you feel about the word "unsustainable"?I like it! The Harvard economist Joseph Schumpeter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Schumpeter) called it creative destruction. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction) He made the term creative destruction famous by using it to describe a process in which the old ways of doing things are endogenously destroyed and replaced by new ways.

Nothing is sustainable. It goes against most things we know about human nature, biology, and evolution. The only thing that is sustainable is change.

[George Fergusson]

Government can spend more than they have

Actually that's not true. Government can only spend (borrow) what they can afford to pay back. Their balance sheet is not infinite. To quote a friend of mine, "The balance sheet of any nation is limited to whatever that nations people will either produce or plunder." Governments that spend more than they can pay back wind up in the same kind of trouble you do.

With government, they can do what they want because they make the rules. I mean, what are we going to do? Give them a bad credit rating and tell the rest of the world not to make them any more loans? It's a travesty.

That's exactly what can happen and will happen to any country that is in danger of, or is perceived to be in danger of, defaulting on their debts. It's already started with us; certain foreign countries, most notably China, have questioned whether or not we're good on our debt and made veiled threats about dumping their piles of US Treasuries if we didn't back up their Fannie and Freddy debt. Nice to have a Chinese gun to our head.

If you're still not convinced, last week Iceland had it's sovereign debt rating lowered by Fitch and Standard & Poor after they bought a 3/4 interest in the nation's 3rd largest bank:

Iceland's Banking Takeover Spurs Credit-Rating Cuts (Update1)

By Lester Pimentel

Oct. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Credit-rating companies are turning negative on Iceland after the government bailed out the island nation's third-biggest bank amid a growing global financial crisis.

Within a 24-hour span, Standard & Poor's and Fitch Ratings lowered the country's rating and Moody's Investors Service put its Aa1 rating on review for a potential downgrade. Fitch yesterday lowered the country's long-term foreign currency rating to A- from A+, and said the rating remains on review for another cut. On Sept. 29, S&P reduced Iceland's foreign-currency debt rating one level to A- and also said it may lower it further.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a1g_Y0jEl.bo

[dragonfly]

If you're still not convinced, last week Iceland had it's sovereign debt rating lowered by Fitch and Standard & Poor after they bought a 3/4 interest in the nation's 3rd largest bank:

I already was convinced. I was just being a SA (I know it's difficult to believe.;))

[Scrapfe]

Actually that's not true. Government can only spend (borrow) what they can afford to pay back. Their balance sheet is not infinite...quote a friend..."The balance sheet of any nation is limited to whatever that nations people will either produce or plunder." Governments that spend more than they can pay back wind up in...trouble you do...certain foreign countries...China...questioned whether...we're good on our debt...dumping their piles of US Treasuries if we didn't back up their Fannie and Freddy debt...Losses ?

George I must respectfully disagree. At the end of the day, all nations, even ours, are only held in check by the amount of fear that countries citizens inspire in that nation's leaders. When the population say enough already or like I like to say go Pop Eye on the national leaders..., remember Pop Eye's line when he ate his spinach? [/B]"I's stoods alls I can stands and I's can't stands no's more!!"[B]

At the end of the day this is the limiting factor holding all nations in check. Its not trouble unless the national leaders also are forced to feel the nations pain.

[George Fergusson]

George I must respectfully disagree.

Are we talking about the same thing? I was saying that there is a limit to how much debt a country can service without defaulting. You're suggesting they can write as big a check as the people will let them get away with writing. Both would appear to be true.[/QUOTE]