1st time using Mite-Away II (Holy Smokes!!!)

[fatscher]

Anybody who's used this stuff, can you pass on some tips for those who've never used??

1. For SBB users, should you close up with a mite board, to keep the "aroma" in the hive (better mite kill rate?)

2. The directions say to take all entrance reducers off a hive, but is this necessary if you have SBBs?

3. I opened the tub, to see what was inside---trust me, don't do this if you're not wearing a respirator. The formic acid knocked me on my backside.

I thought Apiguard was wicked stuff. But, I understand formic acid is an acceptable part of IPM.

[Putz]

[QUOTE=fatscher;357115] I opened the tub, to see what was inside---trust me, don't do this if you're not wearing a respirator. The formic acid knocked me on my backside.

And you want to put that stuff inside your beehive??? :eek:
Are you at least giving all your girls bee-sized respirators?

[fatscher]

Well, I like fried chicken but I won't put that in my beehive! Big difference in human and bee physiologies. Some medicines are meant for people, some are meant for hives. Fully understand others not wanting to use formic acid, or chemicals period, but I'm a believer in IPM, and formic acid is acceptable with IPM.

The toss up is do I choke the bees with formic acid or do I let 'em choke on the mites?

[Putz]

Oh yes I understand and hope it works great for you and your hives. :D

I've used other things in the past, and have settled on SBB with powder sugar treatments myself, and it's working good for me this year. :D

[BjornBee]

But, I understand formic acid is an acceptable part of IPM.

You should be seeking another group of beekeepers opinion to ask that statement. ;)

If it to be used, then I would follow some good advice on using it PRIOR to the fall brood cycle. That way, bees are not effected or "aged" with the ACID treatment. There is a fine (if any at all) between enough acid to kill mites and NOT harm bees.

I hear people suggest that using it before the fall brood cycle will ensure healthy bees are raised after the mites are gone, and that bees are not aged and will last enough to make it through winter. But many forget about the queen. And so, if it effects the bees in ANY way, than what about the queen? I would consider requeening after treatments or in conjuction with the treatment.

Myself...I will not go near the stuff. I will not subject my bees to acid treatments. There are many other ways to control mites thorugh less harmful means.

I hear some suggest because formic acid is a "natural" product, that it's considered a "natural" treatment. But so far, I have had nobody tell me of formic acid on those levels EVER being placed into a hive by the bees. If not for beekeepers, it would not be there. That's NOT natural in any way.

[beemandan]

I hear some suggest because formic acid is a "natural" product, that it's considered a "natural" treatment. But so far, I have had nobody tell me of formic acid on those levels EVER being placed into a hive by the bees.

Same thing's true for the thymol based products. They call them 'natural' because it is a naturally occurring compound but it's applied at concentrations that cannot possibly be called natural. Disclaimer: I use Apiguard in hives that have high mite loads.

[dickm]

>>>>>I will not subject my bees to acid treatments. There are many other ways to control mites thorugh less harmful means.<<<<<

We (our bee club) treated with powdered sugar on 4 colonies, at least once a week and sometimes more, for 6 weeks. At the end of that time they were still dropping 100 mites a day and they didn't start out too high. Drone brood trapping works but is a hassle with more than a few hives. Leaving out those 2 and planning on Apiguard for next year if Mite-away doesn't work...what's left? I alreadyhave mostly Russians.

I'm wondering what you use, Bjorn.

Dickm

[beemandan]

We (our bee club) treated with powdered sugar on 4 colonies, at least once a week and sometimes more, for 6 weeks. At the end of that time they were still dropping 100 mites a day and they didn't start out too high.

I heard Randy Oliver talk this weekend and he displayed graphs of the effects of sugar dusting. A weekly dusting will bring the levels down below the economic threshold but, as I understood it, to remain there requires a continued weekly dusting. Not a practical remedy if Randy's data and my understanding of it are correct.

[BjornBee]

Dickm,
I'm not a fan on powdered sugar as the sole treatment option. It may help a little, but it's not a control in my opinion. And I have used it.

I'll outline what I have done....

In 2002. I lost 60% (60 hives)
In 2003..........40% (120 hives)
In 2004..........33% (180 hives)
In 2005..........28% (285 hives)
In 2006..........24% (420 hives)
In 2007..........16% (380 hives - sold too many!)
For 2008, I have 500 over wintering.

Some points to note....

Russians were brought in 2004.

In 2005, breeder yards were getting established with ACTUAL drone yards being used. These yards are now being used for the third and fourth years in a row. I believe that having the local area as strong as your bees in the apiary is a key ingredient many miss. The queen is only half the equation. You may have a killer breeder queen, but if you don't have good drone stock and actual drone saturation, your not operating at max.

How many people raise queens, and yet weaken their lines due to improper queen management and known strategies?

Prior to 2004 I had many Italians in my operation. Due to years working for the state, it took longer than I wanted to cull out all the Italians. For the past three years, I have bred nothing but Russian and carni's. And I have almost no Italians left.

My IPM includes, screen bottoms, although about half are without. I split and/or requeen almost every hive now for several years, thus taking advantage of brood breaks, and other advantages now being suggested in recent "Out breeding mites" articles, etc.

I am striving to have the best hybrid vigor and genetic diversity, by not worrying about such things as keeping lines pure. And just because you buy a queen marked or called "Russian" does not mean a thing in regards to quality or survivability.

My comb is not contaminated. Which I think is a huge issue. Bees are much healthier on newer comb. To worry about other issues, while having bad comb, is a waste. Bees may have suppressed immune systems, have behavior changes, and many other issues allowing bees not to operate at peak conditions.

I don't have a single answer or suggestion. I am trying to do what I think is best, in both my breeding efforts, and my overall operation. I have said previously when I started this path..."If I could get below 20% without treatments and the associated cost and labor, and have healthier bees by natural IPM and clean comb, then I would tailor my operation to make up for those losses."

And I think that every year, things have improved.

What is the cost of not paying for treatments, but having clean comb and healthy bees? Would someone be willing to lose 1 out of 4 hives for clean comb, to save the cost of treatments, and know your bees may be better off? Why is this an issue for some?

Kirk Webster told me years ago..."Mites have been an issue for twenty years, and they will be an issue for another twenty years. If you need 10 hives next spring, don't go into winter with 10 and come out with less than that and then panic, buying crappy packages and spring queens. Use summer splits (or buy local quality nucs) to build up to 15, then if you come out of winter with ten, you are at where you wanted to be."

So I started really looking at breeding over the years, raise my own, my bees over winter in Pennsylvania, I use equipment option which help with mites, I have kept chems out of my hives, etc.

I see an occasional hive with some mites. But I don't save it with chems. I try requeening, and boosting the hive so they can get over the issue naturally. To save a weak genetic hive with chems, means that hive will be weak next year, and will be mixing with my mating and other efforts.

I have had people this year at open houses, a picnic, many visitors and nuc customers , along with state inspectors look at my bees. We had a hard time even finding a mite at the natural beekeeping class this year. And as recent as last week, an inspector looked at one of my yards and found a high mite count of 2.

I don't have single suggestion. I think it a total concept for bees. With many things at play.

I have a friend of mine that has not touched his yard for three years. No treatments, no inspections this year, and perhaps opened them twice last year. Three years ago, there were 8 hives (single box). Today there is 5 still going strong. None were repopulated with swarms. And the surprising thing was that these are 8 frame mediums! It started as a joke. "well, its too late to do anything now, so I’ll just let them go through winter like that" he said. Three years later, we keep asking ourselves how long they will make it. I can not explain it. (But I'll take some eggs next year...that's for sure!)

I really think that sometimes sitting down and going over every detail of an operation is best. Everything from apiary location to comb age. It all plays into it in my opinion.

[Southern Bee]

I just have to open my mouth about NATURAL. :D Doing things as gently and close to natural as possible is good. :thumbsup: I believe in that too. The less invasive the better!

BUT... people in general (everywhere) toss around the label "natural" like 'if it's natural it can't hurt you'. Unfortunately, natural remedies can be just as damaging as synthetic ones. After all arsenic and digitalis are 'natural' (and both have their uses) but one certainly wouldn't want to munch out on peach pitts or foxglove, or feed it to our bees.

OK I jumped off my soap box now.

And Sorry I don't know anything about Mite-Away II.

[winevines]

Getting back to the question at hand, which was how to use...

NOD apiaries just told me on the phone

Open tub outside
Close up SBB
Open up entrance all the way
Seal any top entrances
Seal any cracks

[James Gauthier]

I will never use that cr__ again. It is too much of a pain with having to have a spacer in place and the killing of bees is something I don't need.

[Ravenseye]

Like any IPM, it's a tool. It shouldn't be your only tool and it doesn't have to be used. I strongly believe that, barring genetics fixing these issues, you have to use what works the best for you and the bees. When a tool stops working or loses much of its effectiveness, it's time for another tool. I've lost a colony when I've ONLY sugar dusted and I've had a colony survive and even thrive when I'd given up on it. Somewhere in between is what you.....and your bees.....are going to need. It's as likely as not to be different for each hive, location or beek. I really don't believe in any single magic bullet. Oh, and I use Mite-Away II now and again. It's not fun to work with but neither are a lot of other solutions.

[Ian]

>>If I could get below 20% without treatments and the associated cost and labor, and have healthier bees by natural IPM and clean comb, then I would tailor my operation to make up for those losses."

We seem to be running that loss rate as it is. As long as the survivours can be split, the operation will sustain itself

[fatscher]

I will never use that cr__ again. It is too much of a pain with having to have a spacer in place and the killing of bees is something I don't need.

James, your post indicates MiteAway killed some of your bees. Can you elaborate? Did you follow all application directions? If it kills bees then why is it marketed for mite killing? Seems that defeats the whole purpose. Interested in hearing your story.

[John Jones]

When I started beekeeping I took an Organic Beekeeping Class. For most of the year I used the Organic treatments...i.e. Mineral Oil with thyme oil on a paper towell, fogging with mineral oil and wintergreen oil, powered sugar. I hate powdered sugar. What a mess. I kept up with things pretty well. When August late and September came I was unable to keep up with the mite population increases until I hit the threashold on the board under the screen bottom board. I am a hobby beekeeper so time is not that important. Results are. I finally had to do something and adopted Dr. James Amrine and Bob Noel's method of mite treatment with excellent results. see link http://www.wvu.edu/%7Eagexten/varroa06 It does use formic acid but only 50 percent solution and the treatment is 24 hours not 21 days as with most other methods. You can read about their method which is tried and tested. I would much rather do a tretment at 11:00 am one day and remove the treatment fume board 11:00 am the next day and go on with my beekeeping than be locked up with Mite Away II for 21 days. Mites must be controlled or they will suck the life out of your hive. I had 549 dead mites on my screen bottom board when I removed the fume (treatment) board from my 8 frame hive. Dr. Amrine and Bob Noel's treatment kills mites in the capped brood where most of the mites are. Read their treatment and research info.

John Jones
Stone Mountain, Ga.

[MichaelW]

fatscher, you mentioned IPM.

Historically, there are 5 phases in the cotton industry in developing countries, including our own.

1. Subsistence phase - producing enough for own use

2. Exploitation phase - massive expansion of the industry which requires use pesticides to control pests

3. Crisis phase - the inevitable conclusion to reliance on pesticides, without integrated control

4. Disaster phase - no longer economically feasible to produce

5. Integrated control - IPM (Integrated Pest Management) is adopted.

Food for thought!

[MichaelW]

You also might ask, "What are the five basic principles of IPM?"

1. Potentially harmful species will continue to exist at tolerable levels of abundance.

2. The ecosystem is the management unit.

3. The use of natural control is maximized.

4. ANY control procedure may produce unexpected and undesirable effects.

5. An interdisciplinary systems approach is essential. (IPM systems must be a integral part of the overall management of a farm, business, or forest)

Thanks for asking!

[MichaelW]

You also might wonder, "What guidelines should I follow in developing an IPM program for my bees?"

1. Analyze the 'pest'. Determine if it is a pest, testable by economic damage to the system.
Learn the biology and host interaction of the pest.

2. Devise monitoring, sampling techniques, and economic thresholds.

3. Devise schemes for lowering the equilibrium positions (average population) of key pests.

4. During emergency situations, seek remedial measures that cause minimum ecological disruption.
(Remember, the ecosystem is the management unit. The individual hives are
just one part of the overall ecosystem, which effects the pest population.)

5. Continually modify control systems according to conditions and new insights as the program develops.

[MichaelW]

Still not convinced? Are you thinking its a lot easier and more profitable to simply
rely on scheduled pesticide applications? Lets look at 7 disadvantages to pesticides
in agricultural systems that have brought numerous countries to the door of
economic collapse.

1. Resistance develops - both behavioral and genetic.

2. Resurgence of pest populations - the rise of pest populations after the control
has 'worn off' is often significantly higher then in untreated controls.

3. Induce secondary pest outbreaks (also known as 'replacement)

4. Adverse effects on non-target species, including honey bees.

5. Hazards of pesticide residue - many possible unforeseeable problems

6. Bio-magnification - typically talking about the food chain

7. Economic and energy costs may be high $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!

[MichaelW]

Beekeeper Joe says , "That sounds all well and good, but I have tried reducing pesticides
in my hives, and tried not treating this year, but mites and PMS came in and began
devastating some of my apiaries, so I had to treat. Compared to IPM, pesticides
seems to me to be
1. Highly effective
2. Have a rapid curative action in preventing economic damage
3. Adaptable to most situations
4. Flexible in meeting changing agronomic and ecological conditions
5. Relatively economical
6. Simple to use (in most cases)
7. And give me "peace of mind", just like that Apistan ad on the back of the Kelly Catalog."

IPM promoter replies, "Well remember Joe, IPM in no way eliminates pesticides from the
toolkit of beekeepers. It instead promotes the integration of all the above, including,
but certainly and clearly not limited to, pesticide use strategies. That said, when resorting
to a pesticide one must consider the following in selecting and using a pesticide.
1. Deliberate and careful timing of pesticide application
2. Careful selection of the material
3. Careful selection of formulation
4. Careful selection of concentration
5. Careful selection of method of application"

Beekeeper Joe: "Thanks IPM Promoter"
IPM Promoter: "Your welcome Joe, now I've got to go take an exam and see if I can regurgitate
all this information without my notes."

[fatscher]

Still not convinced? Are you thinking its a lot easier and more profitable to simply rely on scheduled pesticide applications?

I'm with you, man. But I goofed this year. I did not adequately break the brood cycle in my bees, plus I used a non-hygenic type of bee -- I hived a 3 lb package of Italians from Wilbanks. Plus, I did not freeze my mite trap drone frame.

But, hey, at least I got a SBB.

This is the end of week one of MiteAwayII treatment.

[Jack Weston]

I followed the instructions carefully and tried it for two years in a row in the Fall on one hive. There was a clear reduction in hive strength the following Spring. So I stopped using it.

[knightm1]

I eat the honey I steal from my bee's.I havent used chemicals on most of my hives for seveal years. I have survivor stock from Russian, Italian, carnolian and SMR queens. I think IPM in a passive form, such as SSB is acceptable. I believe that genetics is the only viable solution to mite problems. Genetics are probably the cause of many of our problems. For thousands of years beekeepers have bred the bees for desirable attibutes, such as honey production, swarming issues, defensiveness and so on. In this enviroment, the bees become highly specialized. I believe that in doing this we may have made our own bed, in that an existing pest might gain an advantage in the hive. Also when a new vermin is introduced, the bees do not have the genes available to deal with the added burden. Since the early days of beekeeping, the beekeeper has had to deal with pests in the hive, Wax moths were seen as a problem, but the real problem was poor management (weak hives). Wax moths and SHB are controlled best by the bees. There are measures we can use to assist the bees, without the poisons. Example: I learned this at a bee meeting in Forsyth County, NC. Pollen substitutes and pollen patties attract the SHB. So some people say, we can't use patties any more. An old beekeeper suggested that instead of patties, use small strips of bee bread on the top bars of the hives. The hive beetles still lay eggs in the strips, only now the bees eat all the their protein and the hive beetle eggs(more protein). We need to be smarter than the bugs!
The real problem in beekeeping today, IMVHO is the use of legal and illegal pesticides in our hives. By treating the symtoms, with chemicals, we allow less viable bees to survive and reproduce. This sets up a downward spiral, that requires more and more powerful and more dangerous chemicals.(ChekMite, will destroy your eyes if it gets in them). The real problem is the bees.
Example: I recently bought some packages from a local producer this year. It was a mistake. What I got for my trouble was hive beetles and bees thart are suceptible to mites. I had none of the former and little of the latter, before. Fortunately these are in a separate apiary, with only two of my survivor hives, which now have beetles, BTW. Of the four packages, I bought this spring, two made decent hives and two were very weak. I joined the two weak ones to the two better hives. So now I have two hives that may survive, but are mite infested. I did panic when I saw the hive beetles and treated with checkmite. Checkmite is very bad stuff. After reading the inclosed literature and taking great care not to injure myself. I treated the hives for beetles. It killed brood and the SHB survived. I dug a deep hole and buried this poison in the dirt.
If any of these bees survive I will requeen this spring with my survivor stock
The bees that survive are better suited to resist the pests. They will be stronger and better bees. It also costs money to treat the bees. It takes time. It's crazy. There are many queens on the market that are bred from mite resistant strains of bees. SMR, Hygenetic and survivor stock. There are many people who use natural sized brood comb with fantastic results. The use of chemicals is counter productive, costly and unhealthy. It is better to take your losses early and gain a better bee. If none of your bee survive, your buying the wrong bees from the wrong people. Buy better bees. Resist the urge to save a hive that can't survive on its own. You will be a better, more productive beekeeper if you do.
Thanks
Mickey Knight

[Brent Bean]

I have used mite-away II since 2005 when it was approved for use in the US. Like any treatment if is vitally important to follow the directions, and one very important direction is temperature during application. Especially during the first week. If the daytime high will exceed 82 degrees you need to remove the pads and re-apply when temperatures fall into porper band, if not high mortality will occur.
I have never experienced any noticeable bee mortality using it. If you are, then reading the directions should solve the problem. Formic acid treatment isn’t new they have been using it in Canada and Europe for over twenty years.

[knightm1]

The point I am making is that dependence on any foreign substance can't be good for the bees, the beekeeper or the honey. There are ways to get off of the chemical treadmill. One is natural cell beekeeping, another is genetics. Would you sell a cow; to the unsuspecting public, that was diseased? It's the same thing.
The bee business wants you to buy their products , at ridiculous prices. Who knows what the long term effects are from these "medicines".
We can get all the tainted honey we need from China.

Thanks

[ScadsOBees]

The point I am making is that dependence on any foreign substance can't be good for the bees, the beekeeper or the honey. There are ways to get off of the chemical treadmill. One is natural cell beekeeping, another is genetics. Would you sell a cow; to the unsuspecting public, that was diseased? It's the same thing.
The bee business wants you to buy their products , at ridiculous prices. Who knows what the long term effects are from these "medicines".
We can get all the tainted honey we need from China.

Thanks

For the same reason that I feed medicine to my kids. And some of the medicines that they have taken...yikes!
Nope, my kids aren't all natural. But they are alive and healthy, and I thank the Good Lord every day for that.

If I need to put some insectide on my plants to kill the bugs killing them, or add so some fertilizer to keep them healthy, I do. Anybody just let the cabbage go so they can breed a cabbage-looper-free cabbage? Good luck.

Now you want the farmers to let the weak cows die? The only time they'd sell a diseased cow if they won't spend the money on a vet and medicine, and yes that would be negligence or deceipt.

Letting weak hives die is great to do if you have 100's of hives and lots of money to cover the really lean years.

If you have only a few hives it is pointless and you will be buying packages every spring. Especially if you buy your queens. No thanks, I find a pail of thymol is cheaper than 3 or 4 packages every year. And my honey is as contaminant free as anybody elses.

Thanks for bringing up China. A great example of what happens when everybody does anything anytime they want to. They don't have standards or any testing there. (although they are finding out really quickly what happens without!)

Rick

[swarm_trapper]

did a small test this fall with the mite away i was pretty impressed did not see any bee mortality and they kept laying through the treatment i only did thirty hives though did a better job of cleaning up the mites that the thymol treatment i was useing.

[beedeetee]

I had two hives that I didn't think that I would have to treat in mid-August. In mid-September they were dropping a lot of mites so I tried Mite-away II. I was pretty impressed. I didn't check for brood while the pads were on, but the hives are looking great right now.

We did have a 90F day in week three. I left the pads on without any noticeable problems. I can see that it will have its uses. I still have a few hives that I didn't treat, so I will check in the spring and might use it then if they need it.

[Brent Bean]

Knightm1:

I guess you could call varroa and tracheal mites foreign to the hives as well. And in the mean time while we breed better bees and prefect non chemical means of controlling parasites like mites a crutch like Mite-Away II is an option for the brass knuckles approach to keeping honeybees from going the way of the Dodo bird. All medicines have side affects that could be negative just listen to some of the miracle drugs side affects that are being advertised on TV, some will scare the paints off you. But you have to weigh what you have to gain by what you have to loose. Small pox vaccine has some potentially nasty side affects but small pox is much worse.
Do I want to quit using a crutch to keep my bees from dieing, sure and that is an objective of mine, some people like BjornBee are ahead of the curve and can show that it is possible. But in the mean time the humane thing I can do for my bees is help them, and breed from colonies that show more resilience to foreign attacks.

[knightm1]

I got into this endeavour for the honey. I continue in this avocation because I love it. I do not like to eat honey that is raised by any one but me. I believe that pure, raw natural honey is very good for you. There is very little of that stuff around today. I have the only stock of that kind of honey, that I know of.
Anyone who uses pesticides (medications) to save their hives (babys) and does nothing to improve their stock is wasting money, time and damaging the bees and beekeeping in general. For the cost of treating a hive with pesticides, you can buy a mite resistant queen and requeen the hive. See http://members.aol.com/queenb95/ for more information. I am in no way affiliated with these people. I bought a few breeders from them and this is where my survivors stock comes from.
These queens will be naturally bred from breeders who may or may not have resistant stock, if they do their genetics will be better. It takes several generations of queens to get a resistent stock. Natural selection, if allowed to perform it's God given role in nature, will allow better queens and bees to survive. If 90% of our hives die, the 10 percent that do will be better bee's.
You can buy breeder queens that are artificially inseminated and therefore produce progeny that are even more mite resistant, this will cut out several generations of natural trial and error. These queens aren't cheap and their is the danger of supercedure.
My experience is that these bee will survive if left alone.
I left these on their own for two years due to my work situation and I stole the honey. They swarmed and their are now feral bees in the area.
Of course, buying bee's that are not mite resistant is counter productive and only introduces inferior genes back into the gene pool. If the feral stocks die out, is it due to varroa or bad genes from poor bee breeders?

[be lote]

knightm1 folks that can get by without chemicals in there ipm stratage need to feel blessed. we aint that fortunate.
goin to the field with a empty hive an a 3 lb package aint goin give you the best results. hard lesson learned.

[knightm1]

Do not buy the bee's from people who aren't using resistant queens. I know it is not an option in many cases. It may be that, like I did this year, I bought packages from a local bee dealer, who doesn't believe that genetics works and believes that you must use chemicals. These are inferior bees. I've lost two of the four hives I bought due to varroa and tracheal mites. It's been proven that with hygienic and/or Varroa Mite Resistant queens will survive better. I plan to never again buy packages with a queen, unless they are SMR. I think I would be better off to order several SMR queens and then get packages with out queens. In the first brood cycle there is a marked reduction in varroa populations.
In the long run as these resistive genetics work their way into the gene pool we can expect better survival rates, but by using chemicals to ensure the survival of less sustainable populations of bees, we postpone that day.