Bees not cooperating

[Carl F]

I had a great plan... bees decided to do their own thing...

Background: first year beek, started one package in April, extracted one medium super just before Labor day. Hive population is quite strong. Still plenty of brood being raised.

When I extracted, there was a second super that had some nectar in it that I left on the hive. I started to feed with a hive-top feeder over the super and it appeared that the bees were filling the super, not the deeps below. After a while I decided that I should take the feeder off and put an inner cover below the super so that the bees would move the nectar down. We're having a bit of a fall flow and if anything, the bees are coming through the inner cover and continuing to fill and cap the super--probably about 40 or 50% capped right now--some of that undoubtedly sugar syrup. Going down from there, the upper deep seems to be home to all of the action--some more food and all of the brood. The lower deep seems to be getting ignored and has a lot of open cells. I am not concerned about the size of the colony or the overall amount of food. It is just not where it "ought to be" for winter. I am looking for a suggested plan of action.

A) Scratch cappings and leave super on to be cleaned out a while longer.
B) Take inner cover out and let 'em keep the super for winter.
C) Take off super and go back to feeding over two deeps. (Can I store uncapped nectar for emergency feeding or will it ferment?)
D) Take super off and set it beside hives for a few days and stay the heck out of the way of the frenzy. (I only have one hive and no other managed hives in area that I know of.)
E) None of the above...

[GRIMBEE]

The bees know where it should all be placed for winter, So why would you mess with where they are keeping their winter stores? :scratch: I would just let them keep the super for winter, they might need it.

[odfrank]

G) How about - scratch the cappings, put super on the bottom with reduced entrance, maybe a queen excluder next, reverse the brood chambers and place above the excluder, add an upper drone exit. This will limit the chance of robbing from other hives and a frenzy, keep the queen from moving down into the super, and give room above the brood nest for storage. Check back in a week and see if it is working. Remove the super when emptied.:thumbsup:

[Tom G. Laury]

Let them have it all and don't mess with em anymore. Take the bottom box off and store it if no bees are clustered there. Let them glue it all down just the way they want. Provide some kind of upper entrance and reduce lower doorway.

[Michael Palmer]

I am not concerned about the size of the colony or the overall amount of food. It is just not where it "ought to be" for winter. I am looking for a suggested plan of action.

B) Take inner cover out and let 'em keep the super for winter.

[Carl F]

I guess the extra space of a meduim super will not be a problem for the colony to keep warm during the winter?

[dickm]

I'm a little confused that you fed them up to create a super full and they stored it above the brood nest as they are SUPPOSED to do and now you want them to move it! Less manipulation is more at this point. They will need the room in the lower deep in the spring to raise brood. New stores will be put in the upper deep. I'd bet money all those frames in the bottom deep aren't empty. They may look empty in a quick look but they are usually full of pollen. This too is a plan for brood rearing in the spring.

When spring comes you can "reverse" at a certain point, keeping the empty deep above the queen.

Congratulations on a successful year!

Dickm

[Michael Palmer]

I guess the extra space of a meduim super will not be a problem for the colony to keep warm during the winter?

Bees don't heat the inside of the hive, they only heat their cluster.

[fatscher]

Don't dork with Mother nature. The lower brood box needs to stay empty so mama can lay eggs. Extra supers will not challenge the bees to stay warm, UNLESS comb is not drawn. Please do NOT put any frames of foundation (only) in your hive, or you'll gahhh-ruhn-tee losing that hive.

[Carl F]

dickm/fatscher/et al...

Thanks for your input and commentary...

I posted my question in the BEEKEEPING 101 forum because I too am a bit confused in my FIRST YEAR of beekeeping and was looking for sage advice. At this point I think I jumpped the gun a little on pulling honey based on what I was hearing from other local beeks. It seems that many in this area consider the season over around the 4th of July. A few consecutive hot, dry summers have them in that frame of mind. They pull off their honey, and start feeding right away in anticipation of a dearth. We did see that in most areas but based on my location I think (after the fact) that I was alright to let things go as long as I did and probably could have gone longer. I live near a golf course and I think the bees get plenty of work from the clover, dandilions, and other flowering "weeds" that benefit from the constant irrigation.

When I jumpped the gun and pulled the one full super there was another that was pretty well drawn and with some nectar but none that was capped. I did not want to take it off (what would I do with it?) but based on what others around me were doing I felt like I had to get feeding right away so I took out the excluder and put on the feeder. Realizing that a lot of the feed was going into the super, I took off the feeder and put the inner cover under the super in the hope that the contents of the super would be moved down "into the hive" since the inner cover is supposed to trick the bees into thinking anything above it is "outside the hive"--according to others in the Beesource forums. About that time is when a fall flow seems to have started in earnest and for whatever reason the bees are continuing to work on filling and capping the super (above the inner cover) instead of filling either of the two deeps below. I was also operating under the impression that I HAD TO HAVE two deeps and only two for brood and food and that everything else must be off the hive for winter.

I think ANY new beek will tell you that the most challenging part of the first year(s) is wading through the amazing amount of information and different approaches to beekeeping--all of which yeild some measure of success for the practitioner. And then don't forget to consider that one answer comes from a guy in GA, one from NM, one from VT, a couple from CA, and even a bit of advice from a friend in Canada. If beekeeper on the other side of my county is having a different year than I am how much weight should I put on the suggestion from the guy two time zones away in the desert?

I do not have a single "mentor" taking me by the hand nor do I want one. I went into this knowing I would make some mistakes and learn an awful lot in the process. For the most part everyone locally and on this site has been very mindful of the idea that for every question there are several good and correct answers (some bad ones too). Perhaps I have read it wrong but a couple of the posts in response to this question have made me feel "talked down to" for the first time since I started keeping. I have had a really good time and by all accounts a successful first year--a little fumbling and confusion not withstanding.

I truly appreciate everyone's input and I know the intentions are good. Again, if I was being overly sensitive to some responses I apologize for my rant. I do feel better though... Have a good day:D

[Hobie]

The same thing happened to me my first fall... the super I put over the inner cover to be cleaned, got filled instead. I gave up and moved the inner cover to the top and let them do their thing. Bees know a lot more about being bees and surviving a winter than I do.

They wintered just fine in 2 deeps and 2 shallows, and there definitely weren't enough bees to fill that volume. In the spring, the bottom deep was completely empty, and I removed it.

This will be my third winter. As time passes, you will learn that things you read are excellent "guidelines." The only rule is that there are no hard and fast rules that apply to all beekeepers at all times. Some have wintered in one deep, I have wintered in 2 deeps & 2 shallows. Might work, might not. I have tried to observe what the bees are doing and try not to mess them up. Right now I have one hive that is 2 deeps and 1 shallow, but they are all in the five frames on one side of the stack. The rest of the comb is empty. Well, a tall narrow hive must be what they want, so I'm not going to go stuff them into one deep. Heck, one less deep for me to store and protect from wax moths.

The bees do not read the books, and have never failed to confound me by not doing what they are "supposed" to do. The best I can do is observe, try to understand, and hopefully do no harm.

I strongly recommend the book "At the Hive Entrance" by H. Storch (available here http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=460 ). It's an old book, but I found it very valuable my first year to allow me to look at the tray under the screen bottom board and figure out what they were doing in there without bothering them.

[dickm]

I've never had much luck getting them to empty a super above an inner cover. It's quite easy to leave the super off and let it get robbed out. It's been said that if you put the super upside down they will clean it. Tried it once...no joy. It will clean out in the spring.

How do you get an icon in the middle of a message,I want to dilute my sarcasm?

dickm

[Carl F]

Hobie:

Looking at the tray under the bottom board sounds like sheer brilliance--a real "bee whisperer" kind of move.

dickm:

Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate sarcasm and have been given to using it myself from time to time (to time to time to time to time, if you ask my wife);). If you use the "quick reply" pane that is at the bottom of a thread of posts, I do not think you have access to the smiles. If you click on the "post reply" flag that is on the left immediately under the last post, it opens another "reply to thread screen" where the smiles appear on the right of the text window. Just put your cursor where you want the smile icon and click the one you want. In the text entry window it just appears as key strokes like this ;-) but when you submit your reply the graphic/annimation appears with it.

[seamuswildhoney]

Easy there Carl. as a new beek the last thing you want do is alienate these old timer . You need them dont need you!

[Zbees]

Carl, Hobie, IM a PA beek too... Near indiana, pa.

What about freezing capped honey? If you have five frames of capped, in a medium, can't you take the whole frames, freeze them if you have the space, then feed them their own good stuff in the spring??? I read this somewhere. take the uncapped stuff and let them steal it out away form the hive. I don't know if that would cause a robbing situation however.

I had a good season too. next year I'm going for ten hives.

[Hobie]

What about freezing capped honey? If you have five frames of capped, in a medium, can't you take the whole frames, freeze them if you have the space, then feed them their own good stuff in the spring???

Definitely!

[Carl F]

The plan sounds good and I would love to do that. The problem is that all of the frames have some uncapped cells. My plan for this year is to leave the super on the hive. I'll know a lot better how to time things and start removing/managing the hive configuration for winter next year.