Status Of Northern Queen Rearing

[Michael Palmer]

On 2/11/08, I started a thread on this forum about the migration of queen breeders from the north to the south over the last century plus. The Gleanings article I quoted showed how queen rearing operations were mostly located in the northern states in the late 1800's, and over the following decades, moved south.

I have to give a talk in Michigan next month. Larry has me giving a 15 minute talk on "Queen rearing in the northeast." I'd like to talk about the migration of queen breeders south, and now...back north.

The original article in Gleanings looked at beekeeping periodicals, and counted queens for sale advertisements. It showed the top 10 states. Over the years, the northern states disappeared from the list, and were replaced by GA, LA, FL, TX, CA, etc.

I'd like to show that there is northern movement. So, I looked in my periodicals from last year...almost no northern queen breeders are advertising. It seems to me that there are many northern beekeepers who are raising queens for sale...they're just not advertising.

I know I don't advertise. Webster doesn't. Mike Thomas doesn't. In fact, most of those that raise queens for sale don't...and they all say that they don't have to. The queens are advertised by word of mouth, and sell out fast.

To be fair, I need to know just what is going on out there.

So, my question...

In your state, how many beekeepers are selling queens? I want to include those raising queens commercially...not those raising a few and selling their extras. Not sure where to draw the line...100+ queens?

You can include in your list, any beekeepers who fit, small, medium, or large operations.

[Putz]

I've heard that Northern California is the Queen Rearing capital of the world. I know of one breeder that sells over 10,000 queens per year. I don't know any statistics for sure. See if you can get any statistics from Sue Cobey at the University of California at Davis (UCD) in california. She has been working with all the majors breeders here, trying to promote Instrumental Insemination. Another place to check would be California Bee Breeders Association. I don't have any contact info for these places, but you should be able to find it on internet searches.

[BjornBee]

MP,
As for advetisements, I think the following apply to the northern breeder in the realm of your thinking and perhaps not the 10,000 queen producers from Ca.,

1) Your correct about no advertising in the major mags. But there is advertisement, just more locally or state focused. I advertise in the Pa. state bee association newsletter. Beyond that, it is all word of mouth, beesource exposure, and other websites. No need to spend the money on national bee mag exposure as I am sold out and it would only increase the number of people I would have to say no too.

2) There are many "local" bee breeders. But from what I have found out, many have less than 50 breeding nucs dedicated to queen rearing. When it comes down to it, there just are not that many who are in the 300 to 1000 or more, queens produced catagory. Because of the nature of winter and production problems, I do not see mega queen producers in the north that can produce large volume of queens.

3) I do see a regional increase in bee breeding. Just that it will only be maintained on a smaller scale. If you think about the northern breeder years ago, hive loss back then was almost nothing. Breeder's were not replacing nuc/packages/queens from an industry that lost or loses 30 to 60% of the hives every year as is common now. When a beekeeper years ago would lose one out of ten (if that), then making a split, catching a swarm, or raising another queen was no big deal. And most beekeeper knew how to raise a queen. It has been with the increases of migratory beekeeping, coupled with the bee losses of the past twenty years with v-mite and t-mite, that has seen the queen production shift into volumes and orders of such large scale. Not sure if the northern breeder will ever be able to fill the current needs. And with the needs of the beekeepers in the south and west in early spring, producing them in those areas to fill the need, seems more practical. Although AHB, may see a forced shift, but only with that will be a restructuring of beekeepers systems to allow a more timely production of northern queens.

4)There is also a "fluff" factor in northern breeders. It seems some people having a website from day one of being a breeder, is something some do. Everyone can promote, have a website, call themselves this or that....but at the end of the day, how many orders are they really filling? I know some with slick websites, and they talk the talk all day long, but anything beyond a single graft of twenty being produced per cycle is over their heads. How many queens are these well advertised breeders really producing every year?

5)Queen production is also secondary to nuc production. This year due to industry and demand, my nuc orders increased with sales and orders being taken and filled into mid-august. And so many queen requests were passed on to NSQBA members. Not sure how many were filled, but just finding northern breeders with queens can sometimes be a challenge. So there is ample room for growth. But the beekeeping public needs to have a viable option and available goods for purchase. Thus far, I would say that has not happened. That is one of the purposes of NSQBA, is to band breeders together to at least have a central place where orders can be passed to hopefully fill the request of purchasing a northern raised queen, with quality and breeding guidelines in place.

Hope this helps.

[danno1800]

We now have 26 queen breeders raising hundreds of Northern queens. The reason none of us advertise is that all our queens are snapped up by local beekeepers who want quality locally-adapted queens. You can visit our website below for more information about our efforts. Thanks for all you are doing to promote raising Northern queens, Michael. -Dan O'Hanlon, President, WV Queen Producers
http://www.mountainstatequeens.com/

[danwyns]

Bjorn,

Thanks for the informative post. Could you elaborate on this?

"Because of the nature of winter and production problems, I do not see mega queen producers in the north that can produce large volume of queens. "

Is it simply due to a shorter season meaning less mating cycles per nuc each year, or inability to provide early queens to meet almond/other peak demand? Are nucs not typically combined into mother hives after the last caging of the season to overwinter and then re stocked in the spring?

dw

[BjornBee]

dw,
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

I would find it difficult for any northern breeder to come close to some of the other bee operations in areas more condusive to operating year round, or at least "most" of the year. I use nucs that use standard frames, and taking into account getting them up and running in the spring, and combining into units able to overwinter, means a time frame window of several months for good queen rearing.

I'm not saying there is not a growing demand and opportunity for northern bees and queens. It has exploded in recent years. But if you look at the number of packages and queens from other "non-northern" areas, what's being produced in the north is but a small share.

As northern beekeepers use summer splits to go into winter with an overage of hives to which is needed in spring, then the northern breeder can pick up a greater share. But right now, the beekeeping community buys nucs and queens starting in April, when most northern breeders are not in a position to supply bees or queens. It will take years of "educating" the bee community in the north to use summer requeening vs spring requeening, and to use nucs rather than packages. No doubt there is demand for nothern stock. We just have to come up with the structure to supply the bees, and the bee consumer needs to change their expectations.

Some of the places that do advertise as northern suppliers, are exactly that....suppliers.
They supply bees, but with southern split operations and nucs and queens being raised in the south and then shipped north. I'm not sure the largest queen producer of the true north is, but I'm sure it is nowhere near 10,000 queens, as seen with southern producers. As Danno pointed out, there are several associations now in the north. But it takes many bee breeders raising queens to even make a dent in whats being shipped from the south.

I'm not trying to be negative on the situation of the northern breeder or the southern producers. I'm just outlining what I see and a realistic overview.

[Jerry J]

Mike, As a very small Beekeeper and Queen Breeder, What is a Northern Bred Queen??? My location here in Iowa must survive 10 to 20 degrees below 0 with high winds during winter and I just verily consider my area to be far Northern Bee Keeping. What about Minn. and Mich. North and South Dakodas? I want to purchase Queens from north of me. At least even with me as far as Ag. Zones. Not a problem Just a question? Thanks
And yes my seat is paid for in Mich. on the 11th of Oct. See you there. Jerry Kern Des Moines, Iowa

[danwyns]

bjorn,

Didn't strike me as negative-- just an informed appraisal. I asked because i have no cold weather bee experience. I've only learned about bees since moving to the subtopical top end of NZ, but I grew up in Michigan. . . . I'm not sure that I want to return to the states, but in the event I decide to get back closer to home when it's time to start a fam, I could see setting up a queen rearing operation in the great lakes region.

On a 3 week rotation we get 10-11 cagings per nuc in a season. Our first caging is Friday and we go through april. Is 7-8 cycles realistic in the "northern" climes?

We got to the end of last season and didn't have a need for our last queens, so we left them in the mini mating nucs to see what would happen over the winter. 2 winter feeds and 2 in the spring and 73 of 80 survived, so that tells you how mild the winter is.

[Michael Palmer]

Mike, As a very small Beekeeper and Queen Breeder, What is a Northern Bred Queen??? My location here in Iowa must survive 10 to 20 degrees below 0 with high winds during winter and I just verily consider my area to be far Northern Bee Keeping. What about Minn. and Mich. North and South Dakodas? I want to purchase Queens from north of me. At least even with me as far as Ag. Zones. Not a problem Just a question? Thanks
And yes my seat is paid for in Mich. on the 11th of Oct. See you there. Jerry Kern Des Moines, Iowa

You're right, Jerry. I've tried to change my wording, but "Northern" slipped out again. What I really mean is "Local." When I first began presenting at meetings, I used the term northern. Dave Tarpy called me on it, and I agree with him. There's nothing wrong with "Southern" queens...for beekeepers keeping bees in the south. I think it pretty obvious that you get the best queens for your operation by raising daughters from the queens that perform best in your area under your management conditions.

See you in Michigan.

[Michael Palmer]

Bjorn,

Thanks for the informative post. Could you elaborate on this?

"Because of the nature of winter and production problems, I do not see mega queen producers in the north that can produce large volume of queens. "

Is it simply due to a shorter season meaning less mating cycles per nuc each year, or inability to provide early queens to meet almond/other peak demand? Are nucs not typically combined into mother hives after the last caging of the season to overwinter and then re stocked in the spring?

dw

In Vermont, I can only get 3 queens per nuc, per season...with one more going into winter in the nuc. I winter my mating nucs, so have the queen and her brood to start my mating nucs in May. I/we aren't trying to provide early queens for the migratory beekeepers, but wintered nucs and mid-summer queens for requeening and setting up nucs to winter.

[Michael Palmer]

It will take years of "educating" the bee community in the north to use summer requeening vs spring requeening, and to use nucs rather than packages.

I'm not sure the largest queen producer of the true north is, but I'm sure it is nowhere near 10,000 queens, as seen with southern producers. As Danno pointed out, there are several associations now in the north. But it takes many bee breeders raising queens to even make a dent in whats being shipped from the south.

Some of us have already been at this education process for years. I received an email from Maine telling me that this group of beekeepers haven't bought stock from further south than CT, in years. The change is happening.

We don't necessarily want queens from producers who raise 10,000 queens a year, do we? Is that not maybe part of the problem?

[Michael Palmer]

Bjorn, much of what you say is true. And, of course there will always be problems, and setbacks. There will always be supply issues...aren't there supply issues now?

But, what I was asking you was for help in identifying the status of queen rearing in PA. As a founder of nsqba.com, you have unique insight into this.

What would be your best estimate of the status of queen rearing in PA? How many beekeepers are rearing queens commercially...either for direct sale, or for sale in nucs? How do you see the future in your crystal ball?

And for others in other states...not just northern states, but all across the US and Canada...

What is the status of queen rearing in your state?

[BjornBee]

Of course people have been at this for years. And for the other 95% of the market that is supplied by the south, it will take many more years.

BTW....not sure what group your talking about in Maine, but I shipped there to several people in the past two years. So it may not be as clear as this one statement.

And yes, I (myself) don't ever want to get to 10,000 queens in production. But I am not sure who "we" is. Because reality is, and just based on conversations here on beesource, many have no problems ordering queens from the biggest producers out there.

I'm not convinced that the smaller the operation, by producing less, that this equates into quality or anything else. There are good larger producers and bad. The same can be said about smaller operations. It just may easier for some smaller operations to make claims or this or that, that tend to be in line with what people want to hear, as opposed to larger operations that tend not to take the time for such marketing.

So is that part of the problem you ask? I think that chemicals used in larger southern operations, such as checkmite used for SHB, may be part of the problem, along with a host of other issues. But these same problems are seen with smaller operations just the same. I would say that smaller operations may be more inclined to get off treatments, but that's not a given.

As with anything, "know your breeder" still rings true.

As for commenting about "10,000", I was trying to make a point about the lack of supply, where due to limiting factors, larger northern operations may not be seen, and supply may always be short. I know I was making personal phone calls for many beekeepers this years trying to find queens in mid-summer from northern sources. Seems many nuc suppliers sell some over-wintered stuff then that's it. And queens are hit or miss, in that they graft a few grafts, raise some queens, and just don't seem to have any for orders.

I point this out only to make a point that there are many northern breeders that fit the backyard breeder catagory. But breeders that would fit into full time commercial breeders, with in-stock, reliable, and ready on demand stock, are few and far in between.

So the change may be happening in many northern beekeepers minds....but will the resources and available queens be there in the coming years? I don't know. The fact that nobody needs to advertise, everyone sells out, indicates a demand but limited supply.

I did also happen to make contact for a customer of mine, with one of the state associations that touts their queen rearing group. I'm not saying which one. It took several phone calls, for a request for 10 queens, and after being passed onto two other people, was never filled. I know the consumer is not going to do this everytime.

I think the northern breeder is in demand. I think the market has certainly grown and will continue to grow.

[BjornBee]

MP, As for Pa and NSQBA....

Four years ago, there were 4 certified breeders in Pennsylvania. That did go up to 7 two years ago. Not sure how many there are today.

I can name on one hand, the number of breeders that are strictly northern breeders. Even the one's listed in the PSBA newsletter are questionable to this status of true northern breeders, as they take bees south, split, and bring queens north. I personally know three county clubs that met, planned, and are attempting to raise queens as a group. So far, the results are minimal and what demand they filled or can fill remains to be seen.

As for the number of people raising queens, there seems to be many. I'll mention my efforts with NSQBA. Two things that we set as a minimum requirement was that you have at least 50 hives to maintain some "line" of bees, and that you have bred from a line for two years. Any breeders knows this is as minimum as you can get without making it a complete joke. I have had at least 30 people ask me about joining that we passed on. Although every one of them was sincere in their attempts, most had 5 to 10 hives, or just decided in the past year or two "to get into queen rearing". We are hoping not to be big operators in NSQBA, just good ones!

So when it gets down to it, and if you were to attach any qualifications, to something called "queen breeder"....how many people are breeding a line of bees, controlling drone stock, and actually producing anything that most would consider quality? I don't know. Many are raising a few queens here and there, and perhaps this plays into the whole discussion of how many are "raising queens", but reality is, this production level and associated quality is questionable at best. Each state has a few true northern breeders. Then there is a bunch of sideliners that are raising queens from a few hives, mating with whatever the local stock is, and selling to the local clubs, etc. There are many of those. And what their true impact and market share is...we may never know.

MP, when you get down to it, your one of a few truly northern commercial breeders. If you look in the mirror, your looking at about as good as it gets at this time... ;)

[wayacoyote]

Michael,
Recently (as in This year, I think), some breeders in Kentucky have gotten their heads together to work forward together as that group in Maine seems to have. That's on the aclimitized, locally-developed point.

On the point of how many are here, I'm not at all sure. One well-regarded beekeeper in our state quit selling queens this year due to shipping costs. (He wasn't interested in facing the fuel prices as he lives a bit out of town.) So we may have lost a few like him for a while.

[Chef Isaac]

It is hard to breed queens in Washington State (western washington) and northern Oregon because of the usually cold spring and shorter summer. It is a numbers game up here. Want to produce a lot of queens? Bettter have a lot of hives. Sometimes you might get lucky and be able to start queen rearing in the spring and you might get lucky to be able to get an extra graft or two in fall time if it is a warm fall.