Pollen sub & what really in it

[Keith Jarrett]

Been doing lab testing this past month and was surprized by the results and findings.

I tested the four major pollen sub manufactors on the market today, this was in patty form just as the bees would eat, this WAS NOT IN DRY FORM.

I compared them to mine. The main was the "FAT & PROTEIN" profiles.

Keith's patty has : FAT, over 9% & PROTEIN, over 16% .

There is still much to learn & test, if we take the bee pollen, it has many different parts to it.

Only one patty had more protein than mine with a differance of 1.25 % but was lower in the fat by 8%.

The rest fell way short in at least one of the catigories.

Then you have suppliers (manufactures) saying how they have more protein and they give you a chart using Brewers Yeast, Feedbee,BeePro ect... We should be comparing finished product, ie, what the bees eat.

This, BTW, is all percent of DRY WEIGHT, I tested theirs in the one pound patty form that they sell, the protein content was a little over 10% & there fat was less than half of mine. :(

Again, I tested all in patty form just as the bees eat it, anything less is insignificant!

Hold on.... OK, go ahead, I'm under the bus now . :)

[BEES4U]

:thumbsup:Thank you for the information!
We are considering making our own patties or going to another source.
What were the lab fees for the testing?
:)Good research on pollen patties is not easily obtained and here you provide it at no cost.

Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

[alpha6]

We make all our own. The ingredients are better, fresher and I know exactly what is in them. Bees seem to take them well...so well they take the winter off...go figure...just like some beeks I know. :)

[Fishdude123]

If your not selling them would you mind sharing your recipe?

[Keith Jarrett]

We make all our own. The ingredients are better, fresher . :)

Alpha, how do you know this? How much protein, fat is in your patty?

[Keith Jarrett]

If your not selling them would you mind sharing your recipe?

Fish,
I sell it in bulk, Calif location only.

[Fishdude123]

Darn, doesn't help me in the least. I am too small and far away!
:cry:

[alpha6]

Keith, I/we utilize the Kjeldahl Nitrogen assay to determine percentages of protein. :doh:

[Derek]

Hold on.... OK, go ahead, I'm under the bus now . :)

LOL.. Have you not gotten out from under that bus yet?

[apizap]

thanx for bringing up this topic. feedbee has been doing a big promotion campaign down here in new zealand and i am into my 2nd year of using it. nonetheless i am struggling to see results better than my home brewed soya flour based patties of days gone by.

the feedbee people are very elusive about the actual composition of their product. can someone please elaborate. afterall i'd like to be able to make an "informed" choice.

cheers,

[Trevor Mansell]

Keith , where do you send off your patties to get tested?

[Keith Jarrett]

Keith , where do you send off your patties to get tested?

www.Silliker.com

[Keith Jarrett]

LOL.. Have you not gotten out from under that bus yet?

NO... Still waiting for Bjorn & Chef Isaac. I don't know what there doing..... They should have that 50 cal loaded by now. :)

[TwT]

was Megabee one of those tested?

[Tom G. Laury]

Why is Keith getting his panties tested?

[BEES4U]

:scratch:Did you mean patties?
Ernie

[Tom G. Laury]

Yeah, now I see...PATTIES. Thanks Ernie Sorry Keith I tried to stop myself but the fingers wouldn't listen.

[odfrank]

From your tests, can you recommend one brand or another for us small beekeepers buying retail?
My panties are in a bunch until I find out....

[Keith Jarrett]

was Megabee one of those tested?

Yes. :)

[Keith Jarrett]

Yeah, now I see...PATTIES. Thanks Ernie Sorry Keith I tried to stop myself but the fingers wouldn't listen.

LOL... :)

[Trevor Mansell]

Yes. :)

So how did Megabee make out when compared to yours?

[Keith Jarrett]

So how did Megabee make out when compared to yours?

Trevor,

Megabee was the only one that surpassed my own patty in the protein by 1.25%.

On the fat profile... Keith's came in at 9.04% & Megabee came in at 1.09%.

Only MegaBee had me beat by 1.25% in protein, other than that I beat all of them on the protein & Fat profiles.

Trevor, I'm working on the 1.25%. :)

[high rate of speed]

Come on Louie,you now all of your fans out here on bee source are sitting back with a pen and a piece of paper.:waiting::waiting:lol.

[Keith Jarrett]

Come on Louie,you now all of your fans out here on bee source are sitting back with a pen and a piece of paper.:waiting::waiting:lol.

Well heck... I was hoping a pen & Check Book. :)

[BEES4U]

Kieth,
Here is a suggestion to bump your protein up:
Whey Protein 80% or 90%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I need some thoughts on the whey protein as a constiuent of my pollen patties.
it seems to be a good high quality nutritional item.

http://www.bulkfoods.com/health.asp?referrer=goobreyea

http://www.bulkfoods.com/whey_protein_concentrate.htm

I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

[RDY-B]

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pollenpatties.htm :) RDY-B

[Keith Jarrett]

Kieth,
Here is a suggestion to bump your protein up:
Whey Protein 80% or 90%
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

Thanks Ernie,

The problem with this is you have a narrow range, ie, profile with 80 or 90% of a product.

I try to use no less than three or four products to obtain a certain group.

Take protein or fat, if you had only one or two protein ingredients what would your amino acid profile look like... compare to a four ingredient protein profile.

It's like a mono crop pollen vs a variety of pollen crops.

[RDY-B]

Kieth,
Here is a suggestion to bump your protein up:
Whey Protein 80% or 90%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I need some thoughts on the whey protein as a constiuent of my pollen patties.
it seems to be a good high quality nutritional item.

http://www.bulkfoods.com/health.asp?referrer=goobreyea

http://www.bulkfoods.com/whey_protein_concentrate.htm

I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

talk to these guys about torula yeast http://www.calspraydry.com/Index01.htm RDY-B

[Trevor Mansell]

Trevor,

Megabee was the only one that surpassed my own patty in the protein by 1.25%.

On the fat profile... Keith's came in at 9.04% & Megabee came in at 1.09%.

Only MegaBee had me beat by 1.25% in protein, other than that I beat all of them on the protein & Fat profiles.

Trevor, I'm working on the 1.25%. :)

Without asking your formula , what do you use for protein?

[TwT]

Trevor,

Megabee was the only one that surpassed my own patty in the protein by 1.25%.

On the fat profile... Keith's came in at 9.04% & Megabee came in at 1.09%.

Only MegaBee had me beat by 1.25% in protein, other than that I beat all of them on the protein & Fat profiles.

Trevor, I'm working on the 1.25%. :)


I can see it now, with all that fat Keith will be the first beekeeper to have to add Lipitor to his mix :D

[BEES4U]

This may be of some help.
Last summer I found a web site that was set up with an excel spread sheet with math formulas for calculating the ingredients in pollen patties. I don't know if it was your material.
Formulating Rations With the Pearson Square

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/LIVESTK/01618.html

http://prechel.net/formula/pearson.htm
Ernie

[BEES4U]

http://www.prechel.net/formula/pearson.htm

1952.380 pounds of a 38% ration can be moved up to 39% by adding 47.61 pounds of an 80% protein source for a total of 2,000 pounds.

or, 97.619 pounds + 2.38 = 100 pounds

Now we have the problem of making a homogenous mixture.
Well, it was a :scratch:.
Ernie

[stangardener]

From your tests, can you recommend one brand or another for us small beekeepers buying retail?
My panties are in a bunch until I find out....

i'm buying bee-pro in fifty # bags from mann lake. i chose them because they are the closest outlet and i'm in there twice a year. i add some collected pollen, hbh and canola oil.
my bees aren't in a feed lot so they aren't depending on the patties and hopefully just getting stimulated and fat.
i do trap pollen in the spring and sell it for $20 a pound so giveing them the supplement at $1 a pound seems fair on my end.

[Keith Jarrett]

I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries[/QUOTE]



Ernie,

Allen Dick knows where to find Torula.
www.honeybeeworld.com

[Keith Jarrett]

:We are considering making our own patties or going to another source.
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

Ernie, how does $.90lb in tubs sound for price?

[high rate of speed]

ABRA CADABRA,Just write the check.LOL.;)

[BEES4U]

:thumbsup:Sounds like a good fair price.
How much does a tub weigh?

Ernie

[Keith Jarrett]

[QUOTE=BEES4U;355004
How much does a tub weigh?
Ernie[/QUOTE]

Ernie, tub weight is #200. I will be putting on #2000 pounds today by my self, I will have my wife take some pic so you can see if it's something that might work for you.
Keith

[Keith Jarrett]

Ernie,

Here's a couple pics, the small short barrel is the #200 size that I sell.

Two thousand pounds is whats on the truck, a days work for one man.The cart is use to get the product to the hives,back up the cart to the truck bed,dump the product on the cart and pull it to the hives.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2451.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2452.jpg

Tomarrow I hope to talk my wife into taking pic's for you guys so you can see how easy it works.

Keith

[Keith Jarrett]

Ok, one last round of pics.

This first group is unloading from tubs to cart, This BTW, all took less than three minutes!

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2454.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2456.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2460.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2463.jpg

So then you have the product at the hives, powder the sub, which is underneath the cart, chop to size amount & get-er-done.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2474.jpg

If you go the bottom method, #2000 a day, if you crack your down somewhere around #1250.

[high rate of speed]

Great pics Keith,even with a crew that cart would save alot of muscles.

[swarm_trapper]

hey keith when feeding that much pollen do you get SHB problems? do you treat for them? Nick

[Keith Jarrett]

hey keith when feeding that much pollen do you get SHB problems? do you treat for them? Nick

Nick,

We don't have that problem here. Gee, did I just say that......

I have never seen a SHB so maybe someone else could chime in as I'm not the right keeper to answer that question.

[Tom G. Laury]

Dawg:

What you do with those three stories? Feed em up and pull a box of bees and brood in Feb? Good for you if you do. Wish I was still that young!

[Keith Jarrett]

Dawg:

What you do with those three stories? Feed em up and pull a box of bees and brood in Feb? Good for you if you do. Wish I was still that young!

Well, in late January I try to make sure they can pass the four frame minimun. :)

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1431.jpg

[Tom G. Laury]

Ahhh, that looks good!

[Keith Jarrett]

How many that go to the almonds are feeding pollen sub now?? Anybody?

[Barry]

A new article by your friend:

http://beesource.com/pov/traynor/pnpdec2008.htm

[Keith Jarrett]

Thanks for sharing Barry,

Maybe I can shed this (pollen sub fool) image. :) lol

[odfrank]

"Both beekeepers and researchers now believe that proper nutrition is one of the best defenses against CCD."

My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

My bees are on trailers with enclosed sides, surrounded by asphalt, so my dead bees don't disappear in the grass. I see huge piles of dying bees, mostly young bees with deformed wings. After rains they stumble out by the hundreds. If my bees were not in a winter honey wonderland, these die offs would finish the hives, and does slowly kill off some, leaving some powerhouses untouched (new starts). I don't feel that the colonies "collapse", or "disappear" or fly away, I think they just dwindle off fast and the commercial beekeepers don't see it clearly because the dead bees are hidden by grass.

I seem to have had a lot of losses during summer and fall this year. Some hives that had been powerhouses for years, (150 lbs. of crop in June, gone and robbed out in Sept.) and surprisingly, some strong feral swarms.

[Keith Jarrett]

Odfrank, Try rereading Barry's post.

[Tom G. Laury]

Joe makes some valid points as usual but there are sources of fall pollen here. Small drops say 48 colonies in a location with fresh water and autumn bloom can do just fine. In my experience, summer pollination or staying in irrigated ( sprayed ) crops are the things to avoid if you want better strength for almonds.

[loggermike]

We feed most hives in Sept and October with sub.Some yards traditionally have a good mix of fall pollen and will be good to go on their own.
Then starting again in early January ALL get fed sub while going through and checking hives.

[tecumseh]

odfrank writes:
My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

tecumseh:
unless you trapped a bit of pollen continously and had this analysized you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect.

the report on pollen from australia (can't remember the article's name... fatbee/skinny bee or something like that???) was a bit 'oh wow' for me when you scanned thru the table (spread sheet) of the analysis on various pollens. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.

question for keith...
did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?

[Keith Jarrett]

question for keith...
did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?

Big T, thats a good question.

YES, I have had it analysized for the full break down of amino acid profile.

Also big T, I use four different protein sources in my sub so to get a well balanced amino acid profile this also goes with the fatty acids as well. It's just like bee pollen, the more diverse the better.

[odfrank]

[quote=tecumseh;379924]unless you trapped a bit of pollen continuously and had this analyzed you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.

I have kept bees here for 39 years. My bees thrived until the mites came around. Are you proposing that the nutritional qualities of the local pollen coincidentally deteriorated at the same time CCD showed up and is the cause?

[mudlake]

Think I understand?? I read the Australia report on pollen. Cardboard would have been better. Some of the pollen will keep the bees going with no stress but with stress of the little critters just not enough food. As far as pollen subs. ck them out it is buyer beware . When you find a good pollen sub. please post We only have 4 months that they can collect pollen a nice pollen sub would help me a lot. Thanks Tony

[high rate of speed]

CCd ya that is what it is.:sleep:

[loggermike]

>>nice pollen sub would help me a lot
I hear Keith has a really good recipe! :lookout:

[odfrank]

Any links to this Australian pollen article?

[Barry]

I hear Keith has a really good recipe! :lookout:

Will this be round two or three?:lookout:

[Barry]

Any links to this Australian pollen article?

www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf
(http://www.beesource.com/forums/www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf)

[tecumseh]

keith writes:
I use four different protein sources

tecumseh:
may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?

yep... look like your daddy taught you well in regards to animal nutrition, amino acids and the more the merrier regime of things.

you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.

[Keith Jarrett]

tecumseh:
may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?
.

Big T, www.silliker.com does mine, they do a excellent job and they have locations all over the U.S. & world.

It doesn't cost that much to have your sub done and it will let you know where to make improvments on your receipe.

[stangardener]

tecumpseh says:
you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.[/QUOTE]

stoneguarder says:
i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.

[Keith Jarrett]

stoneguarder says:
i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.


I would say your correct 50/50 or very close. But remember, some Items cost 3-4 dollars per pound that goes into sub.

I had one other note, do you spell it Stangarener or Stoneguarder :)