Regarding Supercerdure:
At what stage do they choose an egg/larvae to become a queen?
I seem to recall this being done at the uncapped larva stage....please correct me if I'm wrong so....if a hive needs to develop a queen can they do that from an uncapped larva at any stage as long as its uncapped?
Michael Bush
09-07-2008, 09:01 PM
>I seem to recall this being done at the uncapped larva stage....please correct me if I'm wrong so....if a hive needs to develop a queen can they do that from an uncapped larva at any stage as long as its uncapped?
I believe I've read that the maximum age they can turn it into a queen is four days after it hatches, but I don't have much faith in the quality of that queen. Just hatched larvae would be the best quality queen. After four days, I don't believe they can get a queen out of them.
Here are a few experiments on the subject:
"Though M. Schirach supposes that none but worms three days old are selected for treatment, I am certain of the contrary; and that the operation succeeds equally well on those of two days only. I must be permitted to relate at length the evidence I have of the fact which will both demonstrate the reality of common worms being converted into queens, and the little influence which their age has on the effect of the operation.
"I put some pieces of comb, with some workers eggs, in the cells, and of the same kind as those already hatched, into a hive deprived of the queen. The same day several cells were enlarged by the bees, and converted into royal cells, and the worms supplied with a thick bed of jelly. Five were then removed from those cells, and five common worms, which, forty-eight hours before we had seen come from, the egg substituted for them. The bees did not seem aware of the change; they watched over the new worms the same as over those chosen by themselves; they continued enlarging the cells, and closed them at the usual time. When they had hatched on them seven days (Translators note: The author's meaning here is obscure--T.), we removed the cells to see the queens that were to be produced. Two were excluded, almost at the same moment, of the largest size, and well formed in every respect. The term of the other cells having elapsed, and no queen appearing, we opened them. In one, was a dead queen, but still a nymph; the other two were empty. The worms had spun their silk coccoons, but died before passing into their nymphine state, and presented only a dry skin. I can conceive nothing more conclusive than this experiment. It demonstrates that bees have the power of converting the worms of workers into queens; since they succeeded in procuring queens, by operating on the worms which we ourselves had selected. It is equally demonstrated, that the success of the operation does not depend on the worms being three days old, as those entrusted to the bees were only two. Nor is this all; bees can convert worms still younger into queens. The following experiment showed, that when the queen is lost, they destine worms only a few hours old to replace her.
"I was in possession of a hive, which being long deprived of the female, had neither egg nor worm. I provided a queen of the greatest fertility; and she immediately began laying in the cells of workers. I removed this female before being quite three days in the hive, and before any of her eggs were hatched. The following morning, that is, the fourth day, we counted fifty minute worms, the oldest scarcely hatched twenty-four hours. However, several were already destined for queens, which was proved by the bees depositing around them a much more abundant provision of food than is supplied to common worms. Next day, the worms were near forty hours old: the bees had enlarged and converted their hexagonal cells into cylindrical ones of the greatest capacity. During the subsequent days, they still laboured at them, and closed them on the fifth from the origin of the worms. Seven days after sealing of the first of these royal cells, a queen of the largest size proceeded from it. She immediately rushed towards the other royal cells, and endeavoured to destroy their nymphs and worms. In another letter, I shall recount the effects of her fury. From these details, you will observe, Sir, that M. Schirach's experiments had not been sufficiently diversified when he affirmed that it was essential for the conversion of common worms to queens, they should be three days old. It is undoubted, that equal success attends the experiment not only with worms two days old, but also when they have been only a few hours in existence. "--François Huber, New Observations on the Natural History Of Bees
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#commonwormstoqueens
"Having proved that perfect queens can be produced only by proper feeding of the queen larvae, I carried out an experiment to see how small a queen could be produced using too old a larva and one that had been reared in a worker cell and had been fed as a worker larva. This experiment astonished me beyond description.
"The larva used was between three and four days old. A patch of such brood of about four square inches, counting both sides of the comb was given to some queenless bees. Now what did these bees do about this hopeless condition? First they chose two larvae which they attempted to make into queens. They fed them what food they had in their glands. Next, they removed every single larva in the comb. Why did they remove the larvae? I wish I knew the answer to that but my guess is they did it for one of three reasons and possibly for all three. First, they wanted to give all their milk to those would-be queens. Second, they wanted to use all the milk in those worker cells. Third, possibly they punctured the larvae and salvaged what milk they contained. In 24 hours they removed one of the queen larvae probably to use what little milk there was in the cell. They did their best but the cell never hatched. Therefore, when someone tells you that bees make such a mistake as using too large larvae when smaller ones are present, don't believe him. My observations have taught me that bees do the very best that can be done under existing circumstances. "--Jay Smith, Better Queens
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#An%20Amazing%20Spectacle
Between just hatched and 36 hours would be a much better bet.
"But I think that I hear some one ask, "How old a larva do you use? and, how about the occupant of a cell being fed royal food, from the time it is hatched from the egg?" I have conducted many experiments to see how old a larva may be, before being placed in the royal cell, and yet have it produce a good Queen. Some who advocate that Queens should be reared from the egg, claim that, in natural swarming, royal jelly is deposited around the egg before it hatches, so that the little larva literally swims in jelly from that time till after the cell is sealed up; and also that where an egg or little larva is selected, from which to rear a Queen in a queenless colony, adjoining cells are torn down, so as to make room for a large amount of royal jelly at the start.
"I have carefully watched, time and time again, to find out if an egg laid in a queen-cell was treated any differently for the first four days (after it was deposited in such cell by a Queen), than an egg laid in a worker-cell, and as yet I have failed to find any difference; so if any bee-keepers have seen what is described above, they have seen something that I have never been able to discover.
"I also find, that where a colony is made queenless, the little larva is floated out with royal jelly, till near the end of the cell, when a queen-cell is built out and downward over the comb, rather than that the bees tear away cells, as described; especially is this the case with old combs.
"At this time of hatching, the nurse-bees begin to feed the little larvae; but, so far as I am able to judge, the larva in a worker-cell is surrounded by three times the food it can use, for the first 36 hours of its existence. Somewhere from this, to the time the larva are three days old, the bees begin to stint them as to food, so that the organs are not developed as they would be if fed abundantly during the rest of their larval period.
"I also claim that the food fed to all larvae, up to the time they are 36 hours old, is exactly the same, whether the larvae are designated for drones, Queens, or workers; and that the difference comes by the queen-larva being fed large quantities of this food, all of its larval life, while the others are fed sparingly later on, or else a different kind of food given after they are 36 hours old. Some experiments which I have conducted point in this direction, but, as yet I have not completed them fully enough to warrant the giving of them here.
"If the above is correct (and I firmly believe that it is) it will be seen that the larva in a worker-cell has all of its wants supplied for the first day-and-a-half, and is developing towards a Queen just as fast, prior to this, in a worker-cell, as it possibly could in a queen-cell, surrounded by ten times the food that it can consume.
"Hundreds of experiments in using larvae from three hours old, up to those of 36 hours, prove that Queens from the former are in no way superior to those from the latter, while the bees always choose the latter, where the power of choice is left to them. As all of my plans of rearing Queens require the changing of small larvae, I have dwelt thus largely upon this very important point, so that the reader might know just where I stand in this matter. Years of success in producing the best of Queens, together with the result of many experiments, conducted by some of our best Queen-breeders, go to prove that I am correct in the above conclusion."--Gilbert M. Doolittle, Scientific queen-rearing
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#Feeder
Michael, if you were to guess at the rough age of a larvae that looks like a little white crescent on its side that easily fits within the cell what would your best guess be?
Tx
-J
Edit: They look very close to the ones in this image
http://www.arkive.org/media/B3FF49BA-213B-40B0-AAE4-DB8B376DA207/Presentation.Large/photo.jpg
jeff123fish
09-07-2008, 09:49 PM
5 or 6 days from hatching
RayMarler
09-07-2008, 10:09 PM
Hard to tell from a pic for me, but I'd say 4 to 5 days
Also, for supercedure, I was thinking the workers get the queen to lay an egg into an prepared cell cup. Same thing with swarming. Only in emergency queen raising (killed queen for some reason) do they float up an already existing larva to build a queen cup and cell around it.
Thanks to everyone for the responses.
-J
Michael Bush
09-09-2008, 08:16 PM
A good way to learn what age looks like what is to make a #5 hardware cloth push in cage and confine the queen on some drawn, but otherwise empty comb, for 24 hours and then come back in 3 days and look. Then 4. Then 5. That's pretty much what they look like just hatched, a day later and two days later. After that they are too old to graft anyway.
In general, I am not a fan of the graftless systems (only because it is too time consuming), but by observing the various ages / sizes of larvae and consistently making use of the YOUNGEST available larvae, you can learn and will be able to produce good queens. A queen that is properly reared will almost always outproduce a queen that is produced in less than optimum conditions. (Assuming all other factors are equally and satisfactorily met). For me, well I made an investment in a pair of prescription/magnified spectacles, anything around 16- 18"of my eye is corrected and has a magnifier of about 6x built in. These glasses are virtually useless to me for anything except grafting but it sure makes a difference in that operation. Also I make use of a combination of lights: florescent, incandescent and fiber optical. Keep careful not to let the larvae dry out ( I use a VERY DAMP towel to keep the frame and grafted cells at a high level of humidity. But it don't stop there, & don't forget the drone source. Favorable mating conditions and giving the newly bred queen plenty of time to develop a brood pattern (getting her reproductive system and pheromone system in sync) before you remove her and expect her to successful head a full colony. This will produce the most noticeable results over the long run. From there its in the genetics and selection details.