Gunman kills Arkansas Democratic Party chairman

[Sundance]

Wow.......... another nut case...... how sad. His quote
on the way out after murder... "I lost my job"

To bad background checks can't weed out the mentally
unstable folks like this one. They should


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080813/ap_on_re_us/democratic_party_shooting

[BULLSEYE BILL]

The background check is a joke, mental health records are not open to be checked.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/18/atf-form-4473-question-11f/

The only thing the 4473 does is give law enforcement something to pin a person with if they falsify the document. Then they do plea bargains and it doesn't go anywhere anyway, so what's the point?

[Bodo]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_us/democratic_party_shooting
(http://www.caf.wvu.edu/Kearneysville/articles/SteinerHort2.html)

Pst! That link is borked. Takes me to the fireblight page.

[Galaxy]

The background check is a joke, mental health records are not open to be checked.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/18/atf-form-4473-question-11f/

The only thing the 4473 does is give law enforcement something to pin a person with if they falsify the document. Then they do plea bargains and it doesn't go anywhere anyway, so what's the point? You are correct Bullseye. The left would scream privacy rights violation at the thought of checking some one's mental health records.

In the case of Cho at Virginia Tech, university health personnel knew of Cho's mental problems and they could not even tell his parents about it for fear of violating Federal privacy regulations. Essentially, university personnel cannot disclose any information to a student's parents without the student's written permission.

The left (and Libertarians) have hog tied us with regulations to the extent we are prevented from doing many things that common sense would dictate.

The question that I often ask those who scream privacy violation on background checks, terrorist wiretapping, etc. is "How many other peoples lives are you willing to see lost to preserve your sense of privacy?"

In today's electronic age you have very little privacy. Get over it! Innocent folks lives are more important than your false sense of privacy!

[Barry Digman]

The left (and Libertarians) have hog tied us with regulations to the extent we are prevented from doing many things that common sense would dictate.[/B]

Ah yes. Every single problem in today's world can be laid at the feet of "The Left" or "The Libertarians" or "The Democrats". The real world is not as easily fitted onto that two column pad as most folks would wish us to believe. It's a little more complex than Debits on the Left, Credits on the Right.

[Sundance]

The background check is a joke, mental health records are not open to be checked.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/18/atf-form-4473-question-11f/

The only thing the 4473 does is give law enforcement something to pin a person with if they falsify the document. Then they do plea bargains and it doesn't go anywhere anyway, so what's the point?

I agree totally Bill. The current background checks and firearm
limitations are a joke.

I could care less if someone who had a non-violent felony
hunts. If your crime used a weapon, no guns for you for
awhile.

I am more concerned about unbalanced people getting them.

[Sundance]

Ah yes. Every single problem in today's world can be laid at the feet of "The Left" or "The Libertarians" or "The Democrats". The real world is not as easily fitted onto that two column pad as most folks would wish us to believe. It's a little more complex than Debits on the Left, Credits on the Right.

I know it's a no no to say "Great point, right on" But....
Great point, right on.:)

[Galaxy]

Ah yes. Every single problem in today's world can be laid at the feet of "The Left" or "The Libertarians" or "The Democrats". The real world is not as easily fitted onto that two column pad as most folks would wish us to believe. It's a little more complex than Debits on the Left, Credits on the Right.I count at least three columns in your post and if you add Republicans we have at least four. But then there are the neocons, neo-neocons, paleo-neocons, paleocons, neoliberals, anarcho-capitalists, etc. All of this is good! We can pick and choose the best ideas from whatever source they originate. Just don't let anyone of these columns get too much power. All of them have some questionable (sometimes loony) ideas.

[Galaxy]

I am more concerned about unbalanced people getting them.So, would you support allowing gun dealers to have access to all mental health records? Would you support university authorities, doctors, etc. being legally able to pro-actively contact next of kin of patients and disclosing mental health findings without the patient's written permission?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Firearms dealers have no business in whistle blowing on suspected nut cases, we are not trained (or insured) for that. However doctors, counselors, and authorities who are should be able to contact next of kin to give them a heads up.

[sqkcrk]

I gotta wonder if this guy was inspired by the fellow in Knoxville. Is this a copycat case? Is it open season on Democrats and liberals? As was the motivation of the Knoxville shooter.

Did this guy have mental health issues or is this just an assumption since he acted irrationally? Is calling someone a "nut case" our way of categorizing someone who does something that we, who we assume are sane, can't understand? Does it give us a way to feel morally, ethically or intellectually superior to someone else? Not judging, just wondering.

[sqkcrk]

However doctors, counselors, and authorities who are should be able to contact next of kin to give them a heads up.

I thought that mental health professionals were obligated by law to inform someone in the legal system when they knew of a client or patient who intended to do harm to another or in any way brake the law. Apparently this isn't always true. Case in point, the guy who allegedly mailed anthrax.

[JPK1NH]

Two observations:

1. There are a number of knee jerk reactionary posts about someone just snapping without waiting for an investigation....it strikes me as odd to see posts from people claiming that the guy snapped when they live 1000 miles away....as if they have some inside line on info. How about sitting back and waiting for some of the facts to be reported.....I know its hard to wait but this stuff takes time.

2. I see a lot of posts about how bad background checks are.....seems to me that since not a single person has so much as mentioned "NICS" that they are a little light on the facts.

Anyone that knows anything about NICS also knows that the few issues that exist are at the state level and is the reason why a NICS Improvement Act was passed last year not only to improve reporting by the states but also to provide a mechanism such that people that had false/bad records in the system could get them expunged.

Take a look for yourself please. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02640:

[sqkcrk]

You mean like this? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://000000000000.com/)

Or This? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://000000000000.com/)

Are those on your truck (half way asked in jest) or did you just happen to know where to find them on line? Do you think that those sorts of stickers are just harmless jokes or do you think that they inspire people to act?

How does suggesting the hunting ( ie. killing) of persons of a certain mind set promote harmony in a society? Can't we all just get along?

[dragonfly]

The problem I see with yous guys' discussion of mental health records and background checks is that usually, people with mental health problems don't necessarily have a "record" to check, nor have they been involved in the mental health system. Sometimes that is the case, and we can look back and say in retrospect "Aha. We should have seen this coming", but just because someone has dysfuntional coping patterns does not give him/her a record to check. I would guess that to be true in the majority of cases.

[dragonfly]

Can't we all just get along?

No we can't. It's not in our nature.

[Sundance]

You mean like this? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://000000000000.com/)[/URL]

Or This? [URL="http://000000000000.com/"]xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://patriotshop.us/images/lib_hunting_small.jpg)

This is the mindless, Neanderthal type thought process that
spawns dip sticks like this shooter. And it perpetuates the
stereotype of low IQ Redneck. (when in fact there are several
bright rednecks out there :))

[Sundance]

The problem I see with yous guys' discussion of mental health records and background checks is that usually, people with mental health problems don't necessarily have a "record" to check, nor have they been involved in the mental health system. Sometimes that is the case, and we can look back and say in retrospect "Aha. We should have seen this coming", but just because someone has dysfuntional coping patterns does not give him/her a record to check. I would guess that to be true in the majority of cases.

I would think something could be devised to at least lower
the numbers of mental cases. Like testing?? Add it to a
gun safety program like I took as an adolescent. Only include
adults.

Gun safety and proficiency should be an on going program.

[dragonfly]

I would think something could be devised to at least lower
the numbers of mental cases. Like testing??

There's a couple of problems I see with your wishes. Most people can't afford long-term mental health counseling or analysis. Most people have no idea that they have anything mental and emotional that needs to be addressed. If they do realize it, this may make them less likely to do highly irrational things. Most people can't see it in others, much less in themselves.

[Bodo]

I would think something could be devised to at least lower
the numbers of mental cases. Like testing?? Add it to a
gun safety program like I took as an adolescent. Only include
adults.

Gun safety and proficiency should be an on going program.

I could get behind that. Something like the CC Permits would be enough. The infrastructure is already in place.

[JPK1NH]

Are those on your truck (half way asked in jest) or did you just happen to know where to find them on line?

They're not exactly tough to find if you can do a Google Search.....I actually see quite a few of them on cars and trucks up in NH.

Do you think that those sorts of stickers are just harmless jokes or do you think that they inspire people to act?

How does suggesting the hunting ( ie. killing) of persons of a certain mind set promote harmony in a society? Can't we all just get along?

Harmony? What Harmony? <lol> As I've posted before I don't condone actions like this but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that incidents like this are a symptom of what is going on in our Society and as I've said before until Liberals and to a lesser degree Conservatives stop stomping on peoples rights we're only going to see more of this crap.

If you want to get along with people then leave them alone.....remember the bit about "Your rights end where MINE begin and My rights end where YOURS begin?"

Just look at the Democrat Party Platform as evidence of this...its all about more regulation and restriction of personal freedom under the guise of "Fairness" http://www.workinglife.org/storage/users/4/4/images/111/2008%20democratic%20platform%20080808.pdf

Here's another example....polls show that almost 80% of the American Population support lifting the ban on drilling offshore and in ANWR etc etc.....but the Kooky Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi made a statement that she will not allow any bill about this to come to a vote on the floor because she's out to "Save the world"....

This is just one of many examples of the Left standing in the way of Democracy....same issue as last summer when Reid and Pelosi tried to force a vote on AmNasty and there were so many calls from Irate Constituents that it forced a shutdown of the Capitol Phone System.....

And people wonder why the Democrat lead 110th Congress has a historic low approval rating of 9% while "Shrub's" approval rating is nearly 30%.....

Just for the record...do you think this is any different than the "Daily Kooks" and others advocating/voting on which Conservative deserves to get cancer next and Die?

[Sundance]

There's a couple of problems I see with your wishes. Most people can't afford long-term mental health counseling or analysis. Most people have no idea that they have anything mental and emotional that needs to be addressed. If they do realize it, this may make them less likely to do highly irrational things. Most people can't see it in others, much less in themselves.

The testing would not involve long term counseling. There
are simple tests that can be administered in 30 minutes at
low cost. Would it be foolproof?? Nope. Would it help? I
think so.

If you can afford a $500 handgun or rifle. You can afford
a $50 test and safety program. Like Bodo suggested on
the CC program. It's there already. Just add to it. Great
idea Bodo.:)

[Galaxy]

You mean like this? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://000000000000.com/)

Or This? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (http://000000000000.com/)IMO that sort of xxxx should be banned. It is certainly beyond the pale.

Liberty comes with a pre-requisite, responsibility.

[Sundance]

They're not exactly tough to find if you can do a Google Search.....I actually see quite a few of them on cars and trucks up in NH. Harmony? What Harmony?...................

Please don't let this devolve. Start another thread. I'd love
to see this one stay on issue.

Issue:

What do about tragedies like this??? How can we prevent it?
Can we lessen the incidence??

This guy was by definition "mentally unstable". His perception on
what made him do it is irrelevant. Be it "voices", "liberals",
"conservatives", or what ever. He was a nut case.

[Galaxy]

The problem I see with yous guys' discussion of mental health records and background checks is that usually, people with mental health problems don't necessarily have a "record" to check, nor have they been involved in the mental health system. Sometimes that is the case, and we can look back and say in retrospect "Aha. We should have seen this coming", but just because someone has dysfuntional coping patterns does not give him/her a record to check. I would guess that to be true in the majority of cases.I believe you are correct. Some have a record, some do not. And, it is difficult to predict what either will do next.

[JPK1NH]

What do about tragedies like this??? How can we prevent it?
Can we lessen the incidence??

Leave people alone and you won't have nearly as many problems.

This guy was by definition "mentally unstable". His perception on
what made him do it is irrelevant. Be it "voices", "liberals",
"conservatives", or what ever. He was a nut case.

I have not seen any evidence to support that statement published yet by the Police or anyone else. If you have info contrary to that then please provide a reference....until then this is nothing but speculation.

For a change can we get folks to stick to Facts instead of Emotions?

[Galaxy]

I could get behind that. Something like the CC Permits would be enough. The infrastructure is already in place.I agree. I believe the way forward is to expect gun owners to have a higher level of training. It seems to me that those who like guns would welcome the opportunity to use them more in training situations. And, gun dealers could make a profit off the training.

I would even feel safer if I knew that there were highly-trained persons with CC permits around in almost all public places. It would almost be like having plain clothes police on duty.

That along with increased ability to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill and criminals would be a step forward.

[JPK1NH]

The testing would not involve long term counseling. There
are simple tests that can be administered in 30 minutes at
low cost. Would it be foolproof?? Nope. Would it help? I
think so.

If you can afford a $500 handgun or rifle. You can afford
a $50 test and safety program. Like Bodo suggested on
the CC program. It's there already. Just add to it. Great
idea Bodo.:)

What do you actually think this will accomplish besides creating more bureaucracy and arbitrarily increasing costs?

We're not talking about Negligent Discharges due to poor gun handling/safety issue...these are cases where someone has decided to kill someone for some reason.....they're going to do it with a Car, Truck, Baseball bat, Knife or any number of other inanimate objects that can be used as a weapon.

You want education then take advantage of the training classes that the NRA offers to kids....they'll come to your school and do it....they are the premier gun safety educators out there and have been doing it for 100 years.

[Sundance]

[quote=JPK1NH;343878

I have not seen any evidence to support that statement published yet by the Police or anyone else. If you have info contrary to that then please provide a reference....until then this is nothing but speculation.[/quote]

If you seriously think that anyone who walks into an office
shoots and kills someone is NOT mentally unstable then
there is nothing to discuss with you. I do not require any
further evidence that the link I posted. If you do, go find
it.

[Sundance]

What do you actually think this will accomplish besides creating more bureaucracy and arbitrarily increasing costs?

Bodo had a great suggestion with attaching it to the CC program.

The "bureaucracy" is there and in place.

The cost would be totally paid by the gun owner.

If it saved one life.......... What is the dollar value? 2 lives?

[JPK1NH]

I could get behind that. Something like the CC Permits would be enough. The infrastructure is already in place.

Bodo, there's no training requirement for CCW in most states.

IIRC Florida only has a requirement for a basic pistol class from the NRA (as an example)....these classes are nothing more than a review of basic gun safety.

[JPK1NH]

Bodo had a great suggestion with attaching it to the CC program.

The "bureaucracy" is there and in place.

The cost would be totally paid by the gun owner.

If it saved one life.......... What is the dollar value? 2 lives?

Whats next "Do it for the Children"?

As I posted in my previous post most states have no such requirement and the ones that do only have a requirement for a basic gun safety class.

It cracks me up to hear people make statements about what is "common sense" about firearms and programs when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Do yourself a favor and do some research.

Look up NICS and CCW Laws in different states.

As I said before you're not going to stop anyone that has made up their minds to be a criminal.

People need to stop trying to treat a Symptom and start looking at the Problem.....the Problem is not related to Firearms but rather its an issue of Why people commit crimes.

[dragonfly]

Bodo had a great suggestion with attaching it to the CC program.



That wouldn't work. Nutcases with guns are not the ones seeking CC permits.

What do you suggest? Have a psychological profiler or psychologist present to test a person before they can buy a gun? Do you really think that a few minute questionnaire can determine the mental stability of most people?

[JPK1NH]

What do you suggest? Have a psychological profiler or psychologist present to test a person before they can buy a gun? Do you really think that a few minute questionnaire can determine the mental stability of most people?

Not to mention the fact that the Psych in general is poorly understood and in its infancy as a Science....our current level of understanding wrt Psych is more akin to our understanding of Disease and Medicine in the 19th Century when they were still using leeches, pulling teeth due to cavities and cutting off limbs instead of setting bones.....better put they're barely better than Witch Doctors for the most part.

On top of that the overwhelming majority of Psych people that I have known in school and met socially since have been completely batty themselves....and we're going to trust one of these loons to make some sort of determination about another person?

[John F]

...and we're going to trust one of these loons to make some sort of determination about another person?

That would be insane... insane I tell ya...

[dragonfly]

.....the Problem is not related to Firearms but rather its an issue of Why people commit crimes.

You've probably said much more than most people realize or even entertain the thought of.

[Bodo]

Bodo, there's no training requirement for CCW in most states.

IIRC Florida only has a requirement for a basic pistol class from the NRA (as an example)....these classes are nothing more than a review of basic gun safety.

Along with a more through background check. Also a waiting period (waiting for your paperwork to get through)

[JPK1NH]

Along with a more through background check. Also a waiting period (waiting for your paperwork to get through)

Florida doesn't do anything special on their background checks. The do the same NICS check everyone else does. Besides having to submit prints Florida is no harder to get a CCW as a resident or non-resident than any other "Shall Issue" state.

Shall Issue means that the State MUST issue you a CCW unless they have a very good reason not to....essentially they need the same disqualifying event in your background that would prevent you from owning a firearm.

There are very few states that do anything beyond a NICS Check. Jersey is one of them and they are completely loony and the process is totally arbitrary/up to the "Judgement" of local police. Maryland does an additional search for records if you are buying a "Regulated Firearm" where the MSP checks with local/county police to see if they have any records that are supposed to be in the NICS DB but somehow are not.....silly stuff that really amounts to nothing less than a waste of time and money.

[Gene Weitzel]

There are several problems with a test for psych stability:

1. Its pretty easy for anyone with a decent level of intelligence to give all the right answers. I know a number of highly intelligent unstable individuals that you could never catch with such a test.

2. Assuming the above is not in play, mental stability is not necessarily constant. Someone could be stable enough to pass the test, get their firearm and then degrade significantly at a later date.

Trying to preemptively keep weapons out of the hands of undiagnosed unstable individuals would IMO be a near impossible undertaking. The only way to do it would be to severely restrict the 2nd Amendment rights of the rest of us, which has proved to be unpalatable to the majority of the population (not to mention the Supreme Court).

[sqkcrk]

No we can't. It's not in our nature.

You may br right.

Hey JPK can you show me the Republican equivalent to those Hunting Permits for Dems? Or aren't there any?

[Sundance]

It cracks me up to hear people make statements about what is "common sense" about firearms and programs when they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

Holy patronization Batman. You may want to step down off
the pulpit just a bit Obewan.

I have been formally trained in firearms (possibly when you
were just a forethought). Have hunted and owned several
firearms for going on 50 years. So please..............

And you miss the point. I am not talking about guns, quite
the opposite. I have been talking about the people pulling
the trigger.

This is not the ol' "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
routine. Never was...........

[sqkcrk]

What [to] do about tragedies like this??? How can we prevent it?
Can we lessen the incidence??


Things like these can't be prevented, not 100%. Random acts of violence are just too unpredictable. If one perceives a threat, then you can prepare for it. Otherwise, whatcha gonna do? Issue firearms and flack jackets to everyone? But that won't help against someone w/ a bomb.

One thing we can do is recognize all of the times things like this shooting don't happen. I think that the occurance of this sort of thing is actually pretty infrequent, compared to the number of times when it could have happened. Just think about how often individuals who own guns are put out of work and the number of them who don't shoot someone. That number will be pretty high, I'll bet.

[sqkcrk]

Leave people alone and you won't have nearly as many problem

Speaking of evidence, since you brought it up, where is the evidence that this guy wasn't left alone? How are people who do this sort of thing being ______? Whatever the opposite of left alone is. Pressured, persecuted, made to do something they don't want to, what?

[Sundance]

I think that the occurance of this sort of thing is actually pretty infrequent, compared to the number of times when it could have happened. Just think about how often individuals who own guns are put out of work and the number of them who don't shoot someone. That number will be pretty high, I'll bet.

Good point........... that carries over to most every nasty
story. the media availability makes it seem more common
for sure.

No solution will be 100%, heck not even close. But something
can certainly be done to keep firearms from violent criminals
and severely mentally ill.

[sqkcrk]

But something
can certainly be done to keep firearms from violent criminals
and severely mentally ill.

I don't doubt that you are right, something can be done. But at what cost to the law abiding? What can be done that won't put more restrictions on the rights of the noncriminal and non-mentally ill? Not to put words in JPK's mouth, but if I have his point of view correct, this would only make more such occurances occur.

[dragonfly]

But something can certainly be done to keep firearms from violent criminals
and severely mentally ill.

Something is done to keep firearms from violent criminals (at least legally) because the fact that they have proven to be violent criminals means they have a shown past history. As for severely mentally ill, it's a different story. Many people we think of as mentally ill were once considered perfectly normal. It's not usually (imo) something that is apparent to the general population, and not necessarily a life-long behavior pattern.
There's just no way to guarantee that crazy people won't get guns unless you ban guns in general, then criminals will be the only ones getting them because they don't care about playing by the rules.

[sqkcrk]

People need to stop trying to treat a Symptom and start looking at the Problem.....the Problem is not related to Firearms but rather its an issue of Why people commit crimes.

And I guess we'd have to have a degree in criminology to know that? Or maybe you have a theory you'd like to share? Again?

Cut back on the restrictions of our rights and priveleges, perhaps?

[dragonfly]

I think that the occurance of this sort of thing is actually pretty infrequent, compared to the number of times when it could have happened. Just think about how often individuals who own guns are put out of work and the number of them who don't shoot someone. That number will be pretty high, I'll bet.

Thank you for throwing some common sense into the mix.:)

[sqkcrk]

Thank you for throwing some common sense into the mix.:)

Oops, sorry, my bad. :)

Tanks.

[Galaxy]

Things like these can't be prevented, not 100%. Random acts of violence are just too unpredictable. If one perceives a threat, then you can prepare for it. Otherwise, whatcha gonna do? Issue firearms and flack jackets to everyone? But that won't help against someone w/ a bomb.

One thing we can do is recognize all of the times things like this shooting don't happen. I think that the occurance of this sort of thing is actually pretty infrequent, compared to the number of times when it could have happened. Just think about how often individuals who own guns are put out of work and the number of them who don't shoot someone. That number will be pretty high, I'll bet.Well stated sqkcrk. Things happen that we cannot prevent at a reasonable cost. But, you can be sure we will hear about them in this electronic age and they are shocking. In a perfect world, these creeps that do these things would get zero publicity.

[JPK1NH]

You may br right.

Hey JPK can you show me the Republican equivalent to those Hunting Permits for Dems? Or aren't there any?

I don't think one of the mods found the links to be strictly appropriate so no.....you could probably find something similar on the Daily Kooks site if you really wanted to....I know they were having polls/votes on which Conservatives are most "Deserving" of brain cancer......

Otherwise a little Google time should get you what you desire.

[JPK1NH]

Holy patronization Batman. You may want to step down off
the pulpit just a bit Obewan.

Which is it? Batman, Obewan or the Anti-Christ from one of the other threads recently....not sure I can handle all that pressure <LOL> :D

I have been formally trained in firearms (possibly when you
were just a forethought). Have hunted and owned several
firearms for going on 50 years. So please..............

That great but your posts make it sound like you are not particularly familiar with the NICS Investigation, where the records come from and what the process is....in fact most of the arguments that I was hearing from different individuals made me think I was listening to Paul Helmke and the Brady Bunch.

And you miss the point. I am not talking about guns, quite
the opposite. I have been talking about the people pulling
the trigger.

This is not the ol' "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
routine. Never was...........

But you're missing the point....you keep talking about treating a symptom instead of addressing the problem.

You can regulate Guns, Knives, Cars, Busses and Swimming Pools. Forks, Sticks and Stones but you will never be able to regulate or reduce the number of crimes committed with any of the above items or any others for that matter until you start looking at the root causes instead of the symptoms.

You can require Nutritional Training and Responsible Eating but you're never ever going to keep people from getting fat short of sending them to Zimbabwe.

Same thing with Firearms Proficiency.....the only exception might be Firearms Safety being taught at a young age.

[JPK1NH]

And I guess we'd have to have a degree in criminology to know that? Or maybe you have a theory you'd like to share? Again?

Cut back on the restrictions of our rights and priveleges, perhaps?

Well for one...this beauty has been sitting in the corner for ~4 years without leaping up and randomly raining bullets down on innocent bystanders so I think its safe to say that the problem is not the inanimate object but rather the person that chooses to make that inanimate object do something (good or bad),
http://www.assaultweaponwatch.com/

[Sundance]

That great but your posts make it sound like you are not particularly familiar with the NICS Investigation, where the records come from and what the process is..

You are correct..... I am not familiar with it, nor will I be.
That does not diminish or preclude me from having a
conversation on solutions, rather than problems. I am
not interested in hammering out a piece of legislation
here..........:) Tailgater is a BS session. Many take
it to pseudo philosophical outer limits.

[Sundance]

You can regulate Guns, Knives, Cars, Busses and Swimming Pools. Forks, Sticks and Stones but.....

For the last time............. I am not talking about regulating
GUNS........ I am talking about training and testing humans
that use them.

[JPK1NH]

You are correct..... I am not familiar with it, nor will I be.
That does not diminish or preclude me from having a
conversation on solutions, rather than problems. I am
not interested in hammering out a piece of legislation
here..........:) Tailgater is a BS session. Many take
it to pseudo philosophical outer limits.

Sundance, if you're not familiar with what the current process is and how it works how can you then expect to have an intelligent conversation about improving things?

[JPK1NH]

For the last time............. I am not talking about regulating
GUNS........ I am talking about training and testing humans
that use them.

And again, you're ignoring the point of my post...Its clear that you have shifted and are focusing on the regulation of people but as I posted before You can require Nutritional Training and Responsible Eating but you're never ever going to keep people from getting fat short of sending them to Zimbabwe.

What makes you think that some sort of training is going to prevent people from committing crimes? Drivers Licenses and periodic retesting doesn't prevent accidents, drunk driving, vehicular homicide or speeding.....

Are you proposing we should have mandatory criminal training as well?

[Sundance]

I am incapable of having an intelligent conversation.
You are superior in every way. You rock.......

I am done here......... carry on. And back to the
original intent of the thread..... Condolences to
the family of the victim.

[JPK1NH]

I am incapable of having an intelligent conversation.
You are superior in every way. You rock.......

I am done here......... carry on. And back to the
original intent of the thread..... Condolences to
the family of the victim.

Sundance, you're missing the point I've been trying to get folks to start thinking about.......and so much of the dialog I've heard is akin to trying to cure the common cold with sudafed......it addresses the symptom generated by the cold without doing anything to directly address the cold itself.

[dragonfly]

Tailgater is a BS session. Many take
it to pseudo philosophical outer limits.


How can you separate philosophy from BS?;)

Back to your wish to keep mentally ill people from getting guns, while keeping the rights of the general population intact, is something that probably can't be done. Mental illness is not just a "blanket" one-size-fits-all problem, and giving a written questionnaire most likely can't detect that you may be dealing with someone who is likely to use a gun in an illegal manner. There are people who are mentally unstable who are inclined to direct their anger in an outward fashion (thus more inclined to shoot someone else). There are depressives who are more likely to direct their anger on themselves (suicides). There are obsessive-cumpulsives who obsess over things and are completely wrapped up in their own world (not much of a threat from what I can see) and mildly obsessive-compulsive people who live normal lives (many of us probably fit in this category;)) . There are people with psychoses who hear voices and walk down the streets mumbling to themselves, but they are pretty harmless as a general rule. There are people with severe anxiety who are afraid to leave the house, but they are so wrapped up in their fears that I doubt they are likely to lash out at others. Then you have the plain old sociopath and how do you determine in an efficient manner that he/she is a threat? You have varying degrees of mentally ill, and a good number of them are functional in society. There are several causes and factors, environmental, emotional, and who knows what else? You would have to be able to pin down exactly which mentally ill people are the likely ones to use guns to lash out at whatever and whomever they perceive as a threat to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

[DCH]

You are correct Bullseye. The left would scream privacy rights violation at the thought of checking some one's mental health records.

The left (and Libertarians) have hog tied us with regulations to the extent we are prevented from doing many things that common sense would dictate.


Interesting thoughts, G...

Soooo, then, should Rush Limbaugh have been a righteous upstanding conservative by not leaning so hard on his own health record privacy rights while defending himself against the "drug shopping" charges he faced when he was caught fueling his addiction? Seems to me, by your own words, that he would have been "the left" in your argument. He was screaming pretty loudly.

[sqkcrk]

the Anti-Christ from one of the other threads recently....

Same thing with Firearms Proficiency.....the only exception might be Firearms Safety being taught at a young age.

Asper the anti-christ thing. It was you yourself who called for being called the anti-christ and I obliged, with tongue in cheek. So I don't really think you can count that one.

As per the second quote above. In todays Courier-Observer (our local paper) it was reported that a 4 year old child was accidently killed last night when he and his older brothers were taking the shot guns that they had been using for target practice back to the gun case upstairs. Their Mom had asked them to put them away rather than leaving them in the kitchen. A shell had been left in the shotgun.

Somebody dropped the ball here. That's for sure.

[JPK1NH]

Asper the anti-christ thing. It was you yourself who called for being called the anti-christ and I obliged, with tongue in cheek. So I don't really think you can count that one.

Awww Shucks......

As per the second quote above. In todays Courier-Observer (our local paper) it was reported that a 4 year old child was accidently killed last night when he and his older brothers were taking the shot guns that they had been using for target practice back to the gun case upstairs. Their Mom had asked them to put them away rather than leaving them in the kitchen. A shell had been left in the shotgun.

Somebody dropped the ball here. That's for sure.

Yup, that why I said it needs to be taught at a very young age......adults don't learn most things very well and become complacent too easily.

But, with that said accidents do happen.

In fact according to CDC's Stats a child that lives in a house with a pool is 200 times more likely to die of drowning than a child that lives in a house with a gun is to be shot.....and there are a whole lot more homes with kids and guns than pools.

Funny thing is that if Paul Helmke and the Brady Bunch we actually interested in preventing kids deaths then they would actually be advocates for "Pool Licenses" or a ban of "Assault Pools with High Dives"....instead of guns.

[sqkcrk]

Funny thing is that if Paul Helmke and the Brady Bunch we actually interested in preventing kids deaths then they would actually be advocates for "Pool Licenses" or a ban of "Assault Pools with High Dives"....instead of guns.

Your right. But isn't what is mostly missing intelligent parental supervision? If Mom had said, "Hey, before you put those guns away let me check to see that they are unloaded.", this wouldn't have happened. Not this time anyway. Instaed she left that responsibility to her 15 or 16 year old.

By the way, I was wrong. The boy was 6, not 4. How does a 6 year old accidently shoot himself w/ a shotgun. Aren't most 6 year olds about the same hight as a shotgun. I'm not really familiar w/ shotguns, but aren't most of them around 36 to 40 inches long?

[JPK1NH]

Your right. But isn't what is mostly missing intelligent parental supervision? If Mom had said, "Hey, before you put those guns away let me check to see that they are unloaded.", this wouldn't have happened. Not this time anyway. Instaed she left that responsibility to her 15 or 16 year old.

If they are mature and experienced enough to go out shooting alone then they are old enough to make sure they have been cleared and put away properly.

IMHO Responsibility/Maturity is not necessarily a function of Age but rather is taught in the home and at an early age.

By the way, I was wrong. The boy was 6, not 4. How does a 6 year old accidently shoot himself w/ a shotgun. Aren't most 6 year olds about the same hight as a shotgun. I'm not really familiar w/ shotguns, but aren't most of them around 36 to 40 inches long?

Not necessarily. There are shotguns that have a pistol grip on them that I would imagine would be short enough for a child to get a finger on a trigger while covering the barrel with some portion of their bodies.

Again...easily avoided by teaching children not to point a gun at anything that you are not willing to destroy.....and also teaching them to handle each and every gun as if its loaded.

[sqkcrk]

Turns out the shotgun was a Mossburg (sp?) and the younger boy was handing it to the older boy when the gun went off. So, I assume the trigger was pulled, right? It wouldn't have gone off by itself, right?

So JPK, I guess you and I would agree that the older brother wasn't mature enough. Or at least not reasonbly responsible enough.

[JPK1NH]

Turns out the shotgun was a Mossburg (sp?) and the younger boy was handing it to the older boy when the gun went off. So, I assume the trigger was pulled, right? It wouldn't have gone off by itself, right?

So JPK, I guess you and I would agree that the older brother wasn't mature enough. Or at least not reasonbly responsible enough.

Hard to say from where I sit. Sometime very very tragic accidents happen in life.

People drown in pools despite years of swimming experience, have car accidents, etc etc.....