Bees boiling up

[MichelinMan]

How can I stop the bees from boiling up when doing an inspection. I try to smoke them down but there are so many it looks like the whole hive is occupying the top bars and they are making their way to form a huge beard on the side of the box. They don`t appear bothered much so I smoke a little more to get them out of the way but I end up killing a bunch when I replace the hive box back on top of them.

Thanks to all who reply.

[Fuzzy]

It's August.
It's hot.
There ain't no food available right now.
They have nothing better to do than harass you.

Leave them alone !!

[Putz]

Maybe they boiling up to protect what's in the frames in that box you're working on where the top cover has been removed. Here, it's hot in August in a dearth, lots of bees looking for something to do since there's no work to be done in the field. So, they boil up as top is removed to protect the nectar that has been stored. Try working them between 11am and 1pm, most field force will be out trying to make a living That might help some. When you replace the lid, do it with a gentle sliding sidways motion to roll the bees off as you place the lid without damaging them.

[tecumseh]

did you smoke them first at the front entrance, or when you removed the lid?

conditions (which you have not given us much detail) could also be relevant to your question.

[MichelinMan]

Tec:

Yes. Smoked in main entrance. Cracked the lid and smoked a couple of puffs. Removed the lid and smoked a little more. By then most of the bees had gone down into the frames so I started my inspection. Then after a while I notice they were all coming back up. I tried to smoke them back down and some went down but they didn't stay down. They came back up and covered the top bars and a lot just went onto the side of the box and bearded out. Maybe it's because I'm slow and taking too much time with the lid off. Next time I'll try putting a plank or something on the top bars to keep them in the dark. I could just move it around a bit as I lift frames out to inspect them. Would that help?

[Oldbee]

I watched a beekeeper on a TV. news program about CCD awhile back; probably a year and a half ago now. That beekeeper [??] put that nozzle of the smoker right up against the bottom entrance and puffed away maybe 4-6 times. Maybe it was just for 'effect',..a,... 'demonstration'; for the benifit of the news cameraman? I don't know. Is this what you are doing?

I have never seen the bees,...'boiling up' all over the top bars and 'making their way' to form a huge beard on the side of the box when inspecting; NEVER! I waft a few gentle puffs in front of the hive and a few more after 'gently' cracking the inner cover, and that's about it. Depending on what I am doing and how much time it is taking, I know I have about eight to ten minutes before I think the bees 'need',......... a few more puffs of smoke.

In your area, Ontario Canada, I would think that there would be Goldenrod blooming pretty soon at least

[Michael Bush]

Maybe they are crowded? Do they need some supers? I would never try to "Smoke them down". Just give them a couple of puffs before you open up. Anything more just riles them up. Another puff now and then as you work if they seem to be getting more agitated.

[MichelinMan]

Thanks guys. I don`t think I`m over smoking but maybe I am. The way Oldbee describes "put that nozzle of the smoker right up against the bottom entrance and puffed away maybe 4-6 times"I guess maybe I do that... somewhat... not 6 but probably 4 decent puffs. And we do have a minor flow on. I don`t think they`re crowded. They started as a nuc in May and now the nest contains 2 deeps and I have 2 honey supers. One is full, the other about half. When I did my inspection I saw larvae, eggs (good pattern), lots of honey and a few empty frames (where I guess some bees just emerged not long ago). Anyway maybe "boil" is the wrong word. They don`t appear aggressive, they move slowly. I`ll try less smoke at the entrance next time and see. Thanks for the input.

Luc

[chief]

I have this problem on warm days in the summer. It is a bother. What I usually do is smoke them good to get them to go down even if it’s only for a few seconds and then hurry to get the hive bodies put back.

Oldbee,

I almost always smoke the entrance to my hives by puffing the smoke into the entrance like you describe. I then let the hive sit for a couple minuets before I dig into it. This seems to help with more aggressive hives and I don’t think it causes them to “boil up” any more than normal. What I have found with aggressive hives is that if you crack the hive open and then smoke they already have sounded the alarm and go into attack mode. If you smoke first at the entrance before they are alarmed, wait a few minuets, and then crack the hive gently (using some more smoke) inspections go better.

[tecumseh]

just a couple of things to consider..

first.. what are you using in the smoker... optimally the smoke should be coolish and not hot or harsh. if the fire in the smoker box is hot sometime adding a bit of green grass will cool the smoke a bit. good bees in a flow will need little smoke.

secondly... if your conditons were hot and tending towards a dearth (you are on the back side of a nectar peak?), then all the girls are home and they are primarily focused on protecting what they have. I would consider your description under these conditions to be NORMAL defensive behavior (not aggressive).

[Dr.Wax]

Try using 2-3 puffs next time and see if their behavior changes.

It sounds like you are oversmoking them.

[Putz]

Use pine needles in the smoker, it burns cool and sweet and white, and calms the bees extremely well. It is by far the best smoker material I have found.

[Scott J.]

If the new smoking techniques do not pan out to get the bees from boiling up then what a person can do in that situation is to set the box down with just an inch or so from the back of the lower one and slide it slowly to the front. This will push bees so leave a gap of 3/8 to allow the bees to get back in. I go work another hive while the bees slowly go back in. You can then slide the box all the way closed without killing too many. I hope I explained that clear enough. Scott

[alpha6]

Run your hive tool along the edges before replacing the top box. The bees will push either into the hive or outside but it won't hurt them and get them out of the way for you to replace the top hive.... :rolleyes:

[Dr.Wax]

Just to be clear, when they boil up are they fanning all at once?

[MichelinMan]

Just to be clear, when they boil up are they fanning all at once?

No they are not fanning their wings... they just seem to be hanging out on the top bars instead of down below, then they end up bearding down the side of the box . I went out again today and used less smoke. They still did it but not as many came up. I`m using dried sumac cobs in the smoker. I was told it was a good fuel. I took a picture to explain what is going on. Once again, I`m not overly concerned, It`s just a behavior I wasn`t expecting. And I don`t like squishing bees. As soon as my camera is recharged I`ll post them so you can see what I mean.

[Dr.Wax]

Just as an experiment you might try using a different fuel.

I don't know much about sumac but I know there is a poisonous version. I assume the type of sumac you are using is not poisonous, correct?

[tecumseh]

michlinman writes:
I`m using dried sumac cobs in the smoker. I was told it was a good fuel.

tecumseh:
bingo we have a winner. sumac tops (seed heads) are often reported to be a natural intervention for varroa. I don't really know what sumac might contain??? but I suspect like tobacco (which will often be reported in the same list) would be slight to signicantly TOXIC to the mites and the bees depending on how much you smoke them. typically both of these products are used in conjunction with a screened bottom board.

try using old burlap, any kind of 100% cotton, cow patties (and my favorite) horse dropping (very well dried of course.

[MichelinMan]

Thanks Tec. So it could be the sumac eh? Well then now we`re getting somewhere. I will definitely try another fuel. I like the pine needles idea. Anyway I will post the pics when I figure out how.

[beedeetee]

I see this action by bees every year during July through September. I don't smoke much before entering the hive. Maybe a puff at the entrance a couple of minutes before I start. Then I wait to see the reaction before I smoke again.

I have commented before in threads, where people say they never use smoke, that I can't figure out how they get their hives back together when the hive become powerful and the bees boil out of the top. By "boil" I don't mean angry. They just seem to slowly rise and cover the frames and side of the hive. I don't see it in all hives, usually only in the largest, most powerful. They aren't fanning, don't seem particularly angry and don't take flight.

This action by bees is why I always have smoke around. To herd bees. You do have to be fast, after smoking them back in, at getting the hive back together.

[MichelinMan]

Thanks all for the replies. I`m going to research sumac seed heads as a fuel. If it really is good against varoa, then maybe I`ll fumigate the hive with it once in a while. Like beedeetee said the bees are not aggressive when they do this, just a nuisance to get them off the edges.

Here are the pics:

http://cid-5ca4c530451c17e4.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!5CA4C530451C17E4!106/

Now in these pics there`s not that many coming out. I think I caught them early. If my inspection lasted longer I think more would have come out. Sometimes the whole top bars are like a living carpet of bees and they go out to all the edges and start bearding down the side. Nonetheless you can see the problem I have. They are covering one side edge of the box. I scoot them out of the way with more smoke usually, but by the time I`m ready to put the upper box back on, a lot of them find their way back to a side edge again and I always end up crunching some.

Thanks again guys.

Luc

[Joseph Clemens]

Your issue sounds familiar. It is what I can expect whenever a colony is headed by a queen too closely related to local genetics. The genetics my queens usually mate with - either feral colonies or colonies of other local beekeepers (unknown to me).

Colonies so affected behave, thus:
- When I first open the hive the bees quickly abandon their normal tasks and begin running in a semi-chaotic manner.

- As the running bees reach the top of the hive they quickly start clustering around the outside top edge of the super, forming a collar around the top of the super.

- While the majority of the hive is milling about the queen will usually run into a corner of the super and hide.

- If I use any smoke it just accelerates this process. But the more smoke the more rapidly the bees move out of the hive.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
My remedy - I remove the offending queen and replace her with one of my cultured queen cells from selected mother stock.

[Oldbee]

I have this problem on warm days in the summer. It is a bother. What I usually do is smoke them good to get them to go down even if it’s only for a few seconds and then hurry to get the hive bodies put back.

Oldbee,

I almost always smoke the entrance to my hives by puffing the smoke into the entrance like you describe. I then let the hive sit for a couple minuets before I dig into it. This seems to help with more aggressive hives and I don’t think it causes them to “boil up” any more than normal. What I have found with aggressive hives is that if you crack the hive open and then smoke they already have sounded the alarm and go into attack mode. If you smoke first at the entrance before they are alarmed, wait a few minuets, and then crack the hive gently (using some more smoke) inspections go better.

Ok; since this thread appears to be 'ongoing', I will add another comment.

"I then let the hive sit for a couple of,.. "MINUETS" before I dig into it".--chief.

You mean you dance around your apiary while listening to a couple of,...Bach's,.."minuettes"? Sorry, I couldn't resist; I'm kind of a, wordplay addict.

chief: I have had about 2-4 hives for the past 4 years and have not had the experience of 'aggressive' hives. My method/style of smoking is for 98% of the time when inspecting. There have been times when a little more smoke in front of the hives may have been good; like when removing supers of honey! If I inspected the hives every other day with a lot of smoke, I would expect the bees to become aggressive. Most of the time I inspect the top box and lift a few frames; the same with the second box. Smoke 2-3 times and inspect. In the late spring and early fall a little more smoke may be necessary. So far it's been working OK. for me; to each their own---- style of,..smoking.

MichelinMan: Your recent photos don't look bad at all as far as bearding/boiling. You must be using 'Staghorn sumac', [Rhus typhina]. Poison sumac has a clump of berries that look a lot like poison ivy and would not make very good smoker fuel.

[tedstruk]

I think bees hate smoke. So I usually make a big smoke screen around the hive area before I open them. The bees recognize when I am coming to do work cause of the smoke screen. Bees coming up means they have something you need to look after. Maybe you offered to give them some bee bread and didn't, or maybe you need to move a feeder to stop robbing, or maybe there is a mess of dead bees in the bottom of the hive that need to be cleaned out. Could be anything but mostly... you could have gotten caught doing something foolish and you need to make up for your foolishness.....

[chief]

II mentioned earlier on this post that I have had the same problem as you with the boiling bees. I agree with Joseph Clemens. Most of my bees are from swarms and open mated mutts that I have been keeping for awhile. They are not bred for any specific traits by a queen breeder. Almost all of the true mutt bees I have are very runny and jumpy. When I say runny I mean they run on the comb during inspections and do the other things Joseph Clemens described above. They also jump at any movement above the hive. I have had them run into large clusters and then when I pick up frames to inspect they fall off in large clumps. The longer you inspect the worse it gets. My only advise is to move fast but careful and smoke them down to get stuff back together or buy some well bred queens and see if that makes a difference.

Weight a minuet Oldbee are you making fun of my spelling?? :)

[Joseph Clemens]

Chief,
Thanks for mentioning the dropping off of manipulated frames in clumps. I had forgotten to mention that annoying trait. Oh, and they also run off the frames and onto my fingers and hands. Though they don't just start stinging once they are on my hands, they do make it very difficult to move my fingers and hands without pinching them, thereby prompting reactive stings. And once they are on my fingers they tend to stay in place like they intended to place themselves there. I've had as many as fifteen bees on one hand - very annoying.