overwintering NUCs

[Docking]

I'm wanting to makeup a couple NUCs for this next spring. Is it hard to overwinter them? I'm building a couple 5 frame deeps. what will I be looking at in feeding these NUCs?

[Troy]

Shouldn't be too hard in Alabama.

[Michael Palmer]

Is it hard to overwinter them?

Winter? Alabama?? d:-) Should be a breeze.

[Hillside]

OK, Alabama is easy. How about Minnesota or the other northern tier states?

I've heard about putting nucs on top of full colonies, but I'm not convinced that's the best for me. I'm thinking about putting them together in groups, insulating the group well, adding sugar on top of the frames, and a small vent in the lid to remove moisture. I've got carnies that seem to winter well in small clusters, but a five frame nuc is an awfully small cluster. We're talking about maybe five full months with no flight activity. I think I'll just have to experiment.

Anyone in the frozen north have any experience with this?

[Maine_Beekeeper]

Hillside -
You will be SHOCKED at how well 5 frame nucs do above a strong colony.

Two years running I panicked and added a medium nuc of honey on top of my 5 frame deep nucs in February and two years running when I took them down off the parent colonies in April they hadn't touched the mediums- were doing just fine with their 5 deep frames.

The wintered nucs build up super strong and are ready to swarm in May if you don't watch them carefully and give them plenty of space.

Give them a try and best of luck,
-Erin

[Hillside]

Thank you for the encouragement, Maine_Beekeeper. I'm looking forward to enjoying some stunning success! There's nothing like a positive attitude, don't you think? Now if the bees will just cooperate.

[Jon L]

Here is a happy 5 frame nuc in the middle of a Maine winter.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/hyptno99/DSC00030.jpg

Notice the frost on the walls....

[WG Bee Farm]

Actually, sometimes: it is easier to overwinter nucs in colder weather than in temperate weather.
In the colder temps the bees stay clustered and don't eat up their stores as quickly.

In milder climates, ( Eden, NC) they are weekly sometimes daily breaking cluster and flying looking for food and water. Because of this they tend to eat up more of their stores than they do in the Blue Ridge Mountains (where i have some hives)
The one good thing is you can get out and feed them if you need to.

Frank

[alpha6]

Hey Jon...put a top on that nuc...lots of snow on the bees. :eek: How much dry sugar did you dump and what was left at the end?

[Bill from NJ]

Jon,

Thanks for posting the picture.

I feel more confident now after seeing the pix.


Regards,
Bill from NJ

[Jon L]

I put about 5 pounds on total and they ate it all... If I had more time to feed 2 to 1 syrup last year I doubt i would have needed the sugar..

The dry sugar did help suck up the condensation though....

[Michael Palmer]

Anyone in the frozen north have any experience with this?

I have a little bit of experience. :-) Tried it a few times....

Took some 385 into the winter of 07-08. 320 wintered successfully. Actually the backbone of my operation, and truly the only way I know to maintain self sufficiency in the apiary.

[Michael Palmer]

The dry sugar did help suck up the condensation though....

Drill an auger hole in the end of the nuc box...opposite end from the entrance. No moisture problem.

[Price Loftin]

Having never have seen any one dump sugar on top of hive frames, can you tell me do you just take the bag and pour till the top of the frames are covered. I assume you are not just dumping it on till the bag is empty. We have our hives where it gets around - 20 there are days where it averages 20 to 30 above. Thanks for the picture and the Positive comments from all. I appreciate it.:D

[Jon L]

The sugar was put on newspaper.
This year I am going to start fall feeding earlier in hopes of not needing extra food on top.I also will try having a vent hole on the opposite side this year.Mike Palmer has a higher survival rate than i did with the sugar. I had 7 of 10 make it through but am left with a 5 gallon pail of poop stained sugar that I hesitate to feed back.If I wintered the same way this year I could end up with 10 pails of funky sugar....

[BerkeyDavid]

I have a little bit of experience. :-) Tried it a few times....

Took some 385 into the winter of 07-08. 320 wintered successfully. Actually the backbone of my operation, and truly the only way I know to maintain self sufficiency in the apiary.

Michael could you just remind us, what is the typical size of your nuc in October:
i.e number of frames, size of frames, amount of honey.

[Michael Palmer]

Michael could you just remind us, what is the typical size of your nuc in October:
i.e number of frames, size of frames, amount of honey.

My nucs are 4 frame deeps, with either a permanent solid or movable division board feeder.

Solid divider:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/overwintednucs1.jpg
Division board feeder:
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/readyforwinter.jpg

I feed enough 2:1 from September 15 to October 15 so the bees have approx 3 combs of feed. September 15 is about the end of our Goldenrod flow.

Series of photos of combs of feed in 4 frame nuc, starting at the outside of the outside comb.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0007-1.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0008.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0009-1.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0010-1.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0011.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0012.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0013.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0014-1.jpg

Note the open cells on the inside frames, and the remaining brood. This is the bees winter clustering space...same as a full sized colony. They need these open cells. Don't overfeed. I would feed this colony another 5 pounds of syrup. That would leave clustering space on the inside 3 surfaces.

[Dundrave]

Mike -

What are you using between your nuc and the hive you are wintering on top of?
Screened? solid bottom board?

Do you use a top entrance for the nuc or leave a bottom entrance?

Thanks.

[HarryVanderpool]

Here are some pictures and discussion from a few beekeepers big and small regarding their winter nuc programs:

http://orsba.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=732

I have 32 nucs ready to winter at this time.
That number will go down as I find queenless hives as winter approaches.
Last year I wintered 16.
I'm hoping to have 24 at least this year.
Sure do come in handy in Almonds.
:)

[Michael Palmer]

Mike -

What are you using between your nuc and the hive you are wintering on top of?
Screened? solid bottom board?

Do you use a top entrance for the nuc or leave a bottom entrance?

Thanks.

The nuc boxes have solid plywood bottoms. Rim has an entrance for each nuc. Upper entrance is 3/4" auger hole on opposite end from entrance.

[BerkeyDavid]

Here is an earlier thread from May where Michael posted some pics of his nucs.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218459&highlight=drift (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218459&highlight=drift)

You can see the bottom board in this picture:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/nucbottomboard.jpg

[Karl Grant]

Ok I have a few questions. When I was younger I worked for a man who had 500 hives. So of all the things I do know. Threre are a LOT of things I don't. Example, to requeen a hive, we would find the queen, kill her and let the hive make a new one. Or if the hive went queenless for what ever reason, We would take a frame of eggs from a really good hive and give it to the one in trouble. So we never raised queens..... or I should say I didn't. I can remember buying some. but we never raised our own. I have 3 hives that need a new queen. So I am very interested in starting to raise my own.

So with that in mind, here are a few questions.
Why do I need a nuc?
Why not just use another good hive?
Why feed sugger? Why not just use "old or cooked honey", it seems expencive to feed all the sugger, especialy on a large scale.

[jeff123fish]

"Why feed sugger? Why not just use "old or cooked honey", it seems expencive to feed all the sugger, especialy on a large scale"



honey is much more expensive than sugar.


jeff

[JPK1NH]

Has anyone ever fed maple sugar or syrup?

Living up north I have access to lower grade leftovers pretty inexpensively and was wondering if anyone has ever done so or is aware of any issue it might cause for the bees.

[Karl Grant]

"
honey is much more expensive than sugar.


jeff

Heated honey is no good to me. Other than to feed it back.

[Michael Palmer]

Has anyone ever fed maple sugar or syrup?

Don't. The sugar has caramelized, and will cause dysentery.

[Eaglerock]

Here is a happy 5 frame nuc in the middle of a Maine winter.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/hyptno99/DSC00030.jpg

Notice the frost on the walls....

That is Sugar?

[JPK1NH]

Don't. The sugar has caramelized, and will cause dysentery.

Tx Mike!

[mwjohnson]

thanks M.P.
we appreciate your taking the time to keep explaining all this.
I still have a little trouble understanding how the double division board feeder works though...how do you keep the two nucs segregated at the feeder? I have been listening and looking at your pictures for a year or two now and must have one of those mental blocks going...

I have made up some deeps with a center groove and seperate inner covers and was thinking I would use a standard division board feeder in each side. What do you think?

I still gotta finish the solid inner cover for the double nuc to sit on,and have been planning on notching the upper side of the rim to create seperate entrances
I understand what you said earlier, but I keep thinking... the hive bodies I run all have auger holes, and I'm thinking that might be a problem....maybe.

Have you noticed drifting from the full size colony below, if one of the nucs has an upper auger hole entrance on the same side as the full colony?

I would want to have some sort of top entrance for the full colony, or some way to top vent the full colony... how do you address this?

I'm trying some your way after trying the stand alone way, and I'm sure glad your willing to share your experiances...again.

We'll get it eventually :)

Mark

[Michael Palmer]

>...how do you keep the two nucs segregated at the feeder?<

The feeders have two chambers, each having its own entrance on opposite sides.

>I have made up some deeps with a center groove and seperate inner covers and was thinking I would use a standard division board feeder in each side. What do you think?<

The groove would hold a solid divider? The division board feeders would take the place of a frame on each side? I guess that would work.

>Have you noticed drifting from the full size colony below, if one of the nucs has an upper auger hole entrance on the same side as the full colony?<

I drilled 3/4" auger holes in all my nuc boxes for winter ventilation. These are located on the ends of the nuc cavity, opposite end from where their entrance is in their bottom board. Haven't seen any drift that matters.

>I would want to have some sort of top entrance for the full colony, or some way to top vent the full colony... how do you address this?<

My inner covers have a notch cut in the rims on the front side. I place this side down, which creates an upper entrance.

>We'll get it eventually<

I know you will. It's just a bit harder to visualize in text, than it is to see it hands on.

[mwjohnson]

Thanks Michael
Yeah, grooved for a 1/4" luan divider cut to fit the solid bottom and tall enough to extend over the top of the divided nuc box, the thickness of the nuc inner covers.

I was leaning towards placing the lower nuc entrance notches on the long sides, with their respective top entrances directly above...will try your method out....maybe sooner than later, they're saying 40 deg's. F. tonight...Brrr

Thanks, Mark

[wayacoyote]

Here, a friend overwinters 2-story deep nucs by wrapping them in the blue construction-grade polystyren insulation board as one finds at Lowe's. He makes a sleeve that slides down over the tall nuc. Oh, and "Here" is in Allen County, of Southwest Kentucky.

We're going to try this with 3-story medium nucs. I may, after confering with him, try one without wrap, though I'm sure he's already tried that. I don't remember if he feeds them at all, but he does raise Italians, so I guess that he does feed to support that broodnest. We use Russians. I've seen a grapefruit size cluster of bees go on to build a nice, yet not booming, size hive by April. That would be fine for the purpose of having nucs about.

[dcross]

blue construction-grade polystyren insulation board as one finds at Lowe's. He makes a sleeve that slides down over the tall nuc.

What does he use to glue the pieces of the sleeve together?

[BerkeyDavid]

I built a 5 frame nuc last night from the blue styrofoam board. They sell a glue for foamboard, comes in a tube for use in a caulk gun.

My concern: is it treated with insectiside? Will the bees eat it?

It is the heavier blue stuff. I will post a picture.

[jeff123fish]

If I'm not mistaken a glue you can use on foam board is called PL 300.


-Jeff

[BerkeyDavid]

posted some pics of nucs I built last night


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=345834#post345834

[winevines]

thanks M.P.
I have made up some deeps with a center groove and seperate inner covers and was thinking I would use a standard division board feeder in each side. What do you think?

I still gotta finish the solid inner cover for the double nuc to sit on,and have been planning on notching the upper side of the rim to create seperate entrances
way to top vent the full colony... how do you address this?



This is what some of us are doing, either making it as you describe or using Brushy Mt. Queen Castles which are essentially pre grooved and pre divided. We will have division board feeders on each side. The problem with the BM Queen Castles, is that (we thought) there was inadequate ventilation in the summer, so we modified a screen bottom board. We also experimented with using 2 nuc migratory tops, but I am not sure I like that method and am back to using one telescoping top. We also made separate shims so that we could feed fondant and pollen patties and with the shims in, that top is level. See modified SBB and shims here: http://www.pbase.com/winevines/queencastlemodifications&page=1

and to look at one side of the double nuc using a plastic division board feeder. the other side is using a masonite feeder. this is the brushy queen castle.
http://www.pbase.com/winevines/overwintering_nucs_summer_into_fall_2008

Also, now I am thinking that I need to make a 3/4 inch notch in the shims for ventilation.
Now some of us will put this SBB closed up, on top of a hive for winter and some of us will just put another SBB or the like and put that on top of a hive for winter. I am still on the fence on which method... I see that Mike has concern for condensation leaking down into the hive which I will have to consider.

[sc-bee]

Mike,

>The feeders have two chambers, each having its own entrance on opposite sides.

I have the same vision problems I guess:D! I see feeder entrances on both sides but what keeps the bees from moving over to the other side?

Does the removable feeder fit so tight bees cant come around or how do you seal it, it doesn't look like the super is grooved?

What kind of cover do you put on them--- just a silk cover covered with a single top?

Just can't seem to picture the top and cover arrangement in relation to the access to the feeder holes on each end .

Thanks Again

[winevines]

Hillside -
You will be SHOCKED at how well 5 frame nucs do above a strong colony.

Two years running I panicked and added a medium nuc of honey on top of my 5 frame deep nucs in February and two years running when I took them down off the parent colonies in April they hadn't touched the mediums- were doing just fine with their 5 deep frames.

The wintered nucs build up super strong and are ready to swarm in May if you don't watch them carefully and give them plenty of space.

Give them a try and best of luck,
-Erin

Erin, so is what you are saying is that the frames of honey within the 5 frame nucs was sufficient for them?

[Michael Palmer]

Slow to answer...been away on the Cape of Cod.

>>I have the same vision problems I guess! I see feeder entrances on both sides but what keeps the bees from moving over to the other side?

Does the removable feeder fit so tight bees cant come around or how do you seal it, it doesn't look like the super is grooved?<<

Yes. Tight enough so the bees can't cross around the ends. Also can't cross under as there's a cleat on the bottom board.

>>What kind of cover do you put on them--- just a silk cover covered with a single top?<<

I use plastic seed/grain bags which sit directly on the feeder. Outer cover holds down the bag on the feeder so they can't cross over.