Church shooting

[MichaelW]

On this day let us learn to keep our thoughts, words, and actions in perspective. Let us realize
that public expressions of hate towards any group is picked up by others whom are willing
to kill and harm in hate. When we identify ideas and people we disagree with, let us disagree in love for others,
not in hate. And, let us learn to live in love with those we disagree with to a degree that goes beyond tolerance.

Police officials and city leaders addressed the media Monday regarding Sunday morning's shooting at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church.

Points made during the press conference:

-KPD Chief Owen says the shooter acted alone, and based on a leter found after the shooting, the suspect was troubled by joblessness, and wanted to strike a blow at a "liberal movement."

-The FBI is investigating the shooting as a hate crime.

-The shotgun was purchased at a pawn shop.

-The shooter brought 76 rounds of ammunition with him into the church.

-Owen: Shooter targeted Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church due to "recent publicity" the church had received regarding its "liberal stance" on things.

-Owen says the actions of the church members who tackled the shooter likely saved many lives, as it appears the shooter intended to try to kill as many people as possible, and did not expect to leave the church alive.

-Owen is proud of the very quick response time of his officers to the scene - approximately three minutes.

-Owen says it does not appear the shooter was specifically targeting children

-Owen says he's been told the shotgun was purchased about one month ago.

-Owen: the shooter was disturbed because his food stamps were soon to be reduced, and he believed "the liberal movement" was getting better jobs than he was.

-Owen: the FBI and ATF are assisting. The ATF is helping to trace the gun.

-Owen: the shooting suspect had worked all over the country prior to ending up in Powell.

-Owen: five people still hospitalized. Four are in critical condition. One is in serious condition.

-The shooter is a veteran of the 101st Airborne, and had an associates degree in something related to mechanical engineering.


http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=61360&catid=2

[Sundance]

Your intro is spot on!!

Hate is cancerous........ it grows into a tumor.......
and eventually kills the host.

[Bodo]

Hate is cancerous........ it grows into a tumor.......
and eventually kills the host.

While usually taking others with it... :(

[JPK1NH]

While I do not condone what was done maybe people and politicians need to get the message that they need to stop meddling in other peoples lives.

Until the over-regulation/over-legislation of Citizens stops its likely that we will see many more people act out in different ways.

Take a look at how many pages there actually are in just the Federal US Statutes at Large which is the official collection of all Fed Laws on the books.

A neighbor of mine was complaining that someone in the area had cleared some land that was overgrown pasture....not only was she complaining but she was advocating that there should be laws against it.....I asked why and she mumbled something about how it was one of her favorite places to walk.......I pointed out that first of all it wasn't her property and second, she was trespassing, third she had no more right to complain about it than I did that she should not be allowed to paint her house a certain color......finally I pointed out that the house and property were for sale and if she didn't like what was being done that she should either buy the property or shut the heck up and learn to respect others rights as landowners.....she promptly shut up.

If each of us were to recognize the principle that your rights end where mine begin and my rights end where yours begin we would be a lot better off....

PS....another good reason for CCW.....when seconds count....the police are only minutes away......

[MichaelW]

JPK1NH, it saddens me that you would respond in this way. You are
placing blame where it is not deserved. A liberal church, that you
do not even know, has nothing to do with property rights. Everything
wrong in the world, can not be blamed on 'liberals' or 'conservatives'.
Also, keep in mind that many laws are created due to societies inability
to live peacefully with one another. Until citizens work out their differences
on their own, government will intervene. Of course citizens and government
are one in the same. "Not me, Not me," is the mantra of the disgruntled, just
like this man. He wanted to strike out at what he saw wrong in the world, but
instead he is in the wrong. Place blame where it is deserved.

[Sundance]

While I do not condone what was done maybe people and politicians need to get the message that they need to stop meddling in other peoples lives.

Until the over-regulation/over-legislation of Citizens stops its likely that we will see many more people act out in different ways.

Take a look at how many pages there actually are in just the Federal US Statutes at Large which is the official collection of all Fed Laws on the books.

A neighbor of mine was complaining that someone in the area had cleared some land that was overgrown pasture....not only was she complaining but she was advocating that there should be laws against it.....I asked why and she mumbled something about how it was one of her favorite places to walk.......I pointed out that first of all it wasn't her property and second, she was trespassing, third she had no more right to complain about it than I did that she should not be allowed to paint her house a certain color......finally I pointed out that the house and property were for sale and if she didn't like what was being done that she should either buy the property or shut the heck up and learn to respect others rights as landowners.....she promptly shut up.

If each of us were to recognize the principle that your rights end where mine begin and my rights end where yours begin we would be a lot better off....

PS....another good reason for CCW.....when seconds count....the police are only minutes away......


Wow......... I can't be as civil as Michael........ Responding to
this tragedy with this BS is inappropriate.

Sugar coated with "..while I do not condone...." followed by
a statement that it was a lesson?? Then suggesting that
the church followers should have be packing weapons??

[Flint]

This shooter was obviously a nutcase, and the whole incident is a sad tragedy. And JKP1NH makes a good point in a civil, intelligent way. The shooter had no point, and even if he did, he obviously went about it the wrong way. I don't see any reason to attack JKP1NH for making a good point in a good way, even if you do disagree with the point.
That being said, I'm not going to go out and start shooting people when they disagree with my opinions. I may or may not post a reply, and then I'll probably forget all about it.

[MapMan]

A very sad, troubling incident. The shooter, undoubtedly has some very deep emotional and psychological problems.

Michael, I agree - we should be compassionate for others, even if they might not agree with our opinions and beliefs. Let's pray for the victims of this incident, including the obviously troubled shooter.

MM

[Sundance]

I went to the Unitarian Fellowship in Minnesota when I lived
there.

What a great group!! Sure wish there was one here.

Obviously this guy was warped and misguided. This
fellowship (church) opens it's arms to everyone. There
were liberal and conservative members. Atheists,
Agnostics, Christians, and others attended.

[SantaCruzBee]

JPK1NH, your response to this tragedy is repugnant. You implicitly agree with this assasin. And you recommend carrying concealed weapons into a church????!!! A place of worship???!!! I was raised a Unitarian, although I have no direct connection to the Unitarian church as an adult. It is a church dedicated to seeing humanity and religions as all striving for the same spiritual communion.

Carrying concealed weapons, unless you are a police officer or other person involved directly in security, is ridiculous. How many other people would have been shot if everyone stood up from their pews and let off volleys of gunfire at this assasin? Americans need to get over their fear of the others, both here and abroad. I'm an ER doc, trained in the Bronx, NY, work currently in Oakland, CA, and health care workers in ER's are relatively frequent victims of assault, I personally prefer to keep my eyes and ears open. Concealed weapons are the crutch of the fearful.

Doug

[Bodo]

Great, so you take one person's point of view/opinion that offends many and then preceded insult those of us who do choose to carry a fire arm. Nice job.

[SantaCruzBee]

Thanks for the kudos, Bodo! :-)

[JPK1NH]

In telling others how they should think and what they should or should not feel a number of you have demonstrated quite clearly the point I was trying to make.

Your rights end where mine begin and my rights end where yours begin...until people start respecting the rights of others and keep trying to force their will on others we're going to continue to see a backlash.

As to the comments from some of you about CCW.....you should take a good look at crime stats in states with a large CCW population and those with low CCW.....Commifornia, like Maryland, NY, NJ and others that restrict people from protecting themselves have extremely high crime rates......bordering states that have good CCW Laws almost without exception have much lower crime rates....in part because the Criminal doesn't fear a cop or getting caught....they fear an Armed Citizen willing to protect themselves and their families.

If you want stats then look to your states Uniform Crime Report or simply go to the FBI site and look at the UCR compilation for all 50 states.

There was a similar incident in a church in Colorado (?) not long ago where a citizen with a CCW took down a shooter in the church before he could take more than a few shots.

Santa Cruz, your comments are proven wrong in state after state.....when seconds count...the police are only minutes away.....

Ask yourselves why it is that almost without exception these shooting occur in so called "Gun Free Zones".

[Barry]

There was a similar incident in a church in Colorado (?) not long ago where a citizen with a CCW took down a shooter in the church before he could take more than a few shots.

Ah, that was no average church goer:

"Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot Murray,"

BTW, because of these unstable people taking these deadly measures today in our schools and churches, I know we have a couple of full-time, armed security personnel at the church I'm a member of.

[MichaelW]

It would be a nice gesture to instead of trying to make points, we instead
pray for those effected. People have died, been permanently disabled, and
children traumatized and covered by the blood of others in the congregation.
Maybe no one in the congregation will read this, but they might. Either way,
if you do believe in anything, then your prayers will help these people. Compassion
may also help you to understand people you do not.

There are also hero's in the congregation that where able to stop the killer.
They happened to not be armed. Kudos to the hero's whom displayed such bravery
and saved so many lives. Their heroic nature came out when it really counts.
Its no surprise though from a congregation that is
well-known in the community as a welcoming congregation for gay Knoxvillians and their families.
The church also has a long history of working on behalf of civil rights, aid for the needy, peace initiatives,
and other social justice issues.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=61360&catid=2

They have stood up bravely for what they believe in the past, and their bravery showed
again in this case.

[JPK1NH]

Ah, that was no average church goer:

"Jeanne Assam, a church member who volunteers as a security guard, shot Murray,"

BTW, because of these unstable people taking these deadly measures today in our schools and churches, I know we have a couple of full-time, armed security personnel at the church I'm a member of.


Actually Barry she was a Private CITIZEN with a CCW who Volunteered to perform security services that day.

Edit: Barry, ask yourself why otherwise normal distinguished individuals find themselves pushed to situations where then respond as they do....its s symptom of a much larger problem not the disease or cause.....same issues are happening in places like the UK where despite near total gun bans their rate of violent crime has now surpassed that of the US....particularly in stabbings.....

[Sarge]

In another life I was taught how to overthrow a government, or recognise such an attempt in progress.
There is a natural tendency to expect "George" to do it, what ever it happens to be. Those who feel threatened expect, even demand, the government to protect them. Be the threat asbestose, tobacco smoke, The Red Menace, or an armed nut case in a church.
Planned terrorist actions will, we were taught, bring about this call for protection, just as the acts of this nut case have. As the demands get louder and louder the government will respond by taking what actions it can to calm the people. Right now in England the debate is over "Knife Crime" and what the government can do about it. If their past actions are any indicator they will respond by making the carrying of a pocket knife an offense against the Crown and attach a lengthy jail term to the offense.
What ever the perceived threat the government, any government, action will ALWAYS be a reduction in individual freedom.
We have to be aware of the trend and watch carefully before we make such demands of the governments. Our well intentioned calls for protection will only cause some of our fellow citizens to lose some of their freedoms, and create even more such bad feelings among the masses. And, just as we were taught in the insurgency class, at some point the feelings of oppression will come to dominate a large enough group to bring about REAL violence.

[Hillside]

ask yourself why otherwise normal distinguished individuals find themselves pushed to situations where then respond as they do

Do normal, distinguished individuals murder innocent people? The answer is no, they do not.

[Eaglerock]

we have a couple of full-time, armed security personnel at the church I'm a member of.

Now that is sad... times have truly changed...

[JPK1NH]

Do normal, distinguished individuals murder innocent people? The answer is no, they do not.

To make a blanket statement like you did is quite unrealistic.

When pushed too far most anyone is capable of pushing back.

Take a good look at who our founding fathers were and why exactly they "Pushed Back", it was something like a 10% tax rate.

[Hillside]

Take a good look at who our founding fathers were and why exactly they "Pushed Back"

Show me where Ben Franklin, Button Gwinnett, or John Adams went out and coldbloodedly murdered a bunch of innocent church-goers.

[WannaBee]

SantaCruzBee said "And you recommend carrying concealed weapons into a church????!!!" YES If we did not have freedom to carry concealed weapons we would not have any freedom at all.

If churches were no carry zones then they would be the perfect target for attacks.


My dad carries a gun to church all of the time, and all the guys gather around after church to compare and ooh and aah over the weapons. They love it!!

WB

[Barry]

Barry, ask yourself why otherwise normal distinguished individuals find themselves pushed to situations where then respond as they do...

I'm not interested in getting into debate over this tragedy. I simply wanted to bring the facts out about an individual you used to support CCW, which I think is erroneous.

[Barry]

Now that is sad...

I should add that they are not uniformed security. A church that has over 20,000 attending on the weekend, you can bet security is a concern.

[JPK1NH]

I'm not interested in getting into debate over this tragedy. I simply wanted to bring the facts out about an individual you used to support CCW, which I think is erroneous.

Barry, just google Jeanne Assam and you'll see all the info about her that supports my statement that she was a private citizen with a CCW that volunteered to provide security that day.

As to the rest about CCW here's the link to the UCR http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

I would suggest using some of the big numbers like Murder Rate and Cumulative/Total Violent Crime Rate for a state.

Compare it to some of the laws in each state http://carryconcealed.net/legal/

I could go on for pages and pages with stats and references to support this if you would like more supporting evidence.

Here's a little stat on Texas CCW Licensees. In an unpublished report, engineering statistician William Sturdevant found that concealed carry licensees had arrest rates far lower than the general population for every category of crime. For instance:

* Licensees were 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public - 127 per 100,000 population versus 730 per 100,000.

* Licensees were 14 times less likely to be arrested for nonviolent offenses than the general public - 386 per 100,000 population versus 5,212 per 100,000.

* Further, the general public is 1.4 times more likely to be arrested for murder than licensees [see Figure I], and no licensee had been arrested for negligent manslaughter.

While many of you may believe that this is counterintuitive, society is safer and crime is lower because a portion of the population is willing to accept the responsibility of CCW....when Criminals know that there is a reasonable chance that their next victim is carrying it tends to discourage a chunk of criminal acts.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
-Robert A. Heinlein

[mike haney]

"In an unpublished report, engineer..." really reaching here. :( i agree with your major beliefs (as i see them) on concealed carry but spinning facts and this kind of offensive digging for obscure "corroboration" turns people away from seriosly viewing your posts, hence "i don't want to debate.."

[MichaelW]

JPK1NH,
your use of this event to support your own political agenda is just as bad
as those that might use it to ban guns.

I see this community (Knoxville) reaching together and talking about healing. I see all the
denominations and political persuasions in this community coming together to
say this was wrong, seeking understanding, and offering support. Other denominations
are afraid this can happen at their church, not because the other denominations are
liberal, but because they know how senseless and wrong this act was. You seem not
to know that. You state in your fist post that there is some political message
in the killings that has validity. That is the sickness that is wrong with this country.

I support gun rights. I carry my gun when I go somewhere I suspect trouble. I keep a gun
close by at home. I shoot guns with my at least democratic, if not liberal friends. I'm a
liberal, eco-green, Obama voter, social justice, Progressive-liberal Christian. I'm not unique in
the least in my liberal stance and support of guns. The few liberals that are against gun
ownership are liberals, but the many liberals are not against gun ownership. Your playing
politics, or brain washed, or simply have a warped sense of reality from where I sit.

What even makes you think this tragedy is a good case for concealed carry? The guy fired
three shots. Its hard to get a pistol out of your pocket, aim from some distance and
shoot in less then three shots when your cought off guard IN A CHURCH.
There are many ways to defend yourself and your neighbors. A gun is one way, but
certainly not always the most efficient or best way. That the guy only got off three
shots is amazing, and speaks volumes to the heros in the crowd, whom may not want to
have to carry a gun around all day, every day, waiting for something like that too happen.
But guess what, they didn't need to carry a gun. They stopped him anyway. So your
argument sucks, in addition to it being the very wrong thing at the wrong time.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Its hard to get a pistol out of your pocket, aim from some distance and shoot in less then three shots when your cought off guard IN A CHURCH.
.

This is a hard fence to set on as we have had church shootings here as well, but if there is a person who can do this in my church I pray that they are armed and situationally aware.

[sqkcrk]

Ask yourselves why it is that almost without exception these shooting occur in so called "Gun Free Zones".

Gregory McKendry Jr.s response was appropriate under the circumstances. Yours' I'm not so sure about.

He gave his life to protect his fellow congregants. If he had taken the time to draw a weapon, who knows what would have happened.

Let's not turn this into a gun rights rant. Let's support the views and Principles of the TVUU congregation which, if the gunman had come to in a rational manner, would have been open to the exploration of his views and the problems he had with those he saw as a threat to our society.

This act of violence was an irrational act by someone who needed help and didn't know how to ask for it. Strangely enough, he probably would have found the help he needed from the very folks he attacked.

[sqkcrk]

[QUOTE=JPK1NH;339053]When pushed too far most anyone is capable of pushing back.
QUOTE]

Who was pushing whom? Certainly not the members of TVUU Church.

[sqkcrk]

On this day let us learn to keep our thoughts, words, and actions in perspective. Let us realize
that public expressions of hate towards any group is picked up by others whom are willing
to kill and harm in hate. When we identify ideas and people we disagree with, let us disagree in love for others,
not in hate. And, let us learn to live in love with those we disagree with to a degree that goes beyond tolerance.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=61360&catid=2

Michael,

Thanks for this thread. As a UU myself, I was waiting for someone else to bring it up. I was also waiting to get more info about what happened.

For anyone wishing to exprese their condolences to the congregations directly effected there is a comments page on the UUA website. Go to uua.org and you'll find the way.

[dragonfly]

Who was pushing whom? Certainly not the members of TVUU Church.

From what I've heard in the news, it sounds like he was just an angry man trying to place the blame on the fact that his parents "forced" him to go to church while he was growing up. I would bet that description fits most of us over the age of 50 or so. If you want help, going at it his way is pretty distorted.

[sqkcrk]

From what I've heard in the news, it sounds like he was just an angry man trying to place the blame on the fact that his parents "forced" him to go to church while he was growing up. I would bet that description fits most of us over the age of 50 or so. If you want help, going at it his way is pretty distorted.

That was only one of his problems. Apparently he had a real problem with religion and what he thought he knew of the Bible. He is also unemployed and finding it hard to find a job. His Food Stamps were supposedly going to be cut off or reduced. etc., etc.

I sure do agree w/ you though.

[MichaelW]

And, he was full of hate towards 'liberals'.
"During the interview Adkisson stated that he had targeted the church because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were a ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets. Adkisson made statements that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement that he would then target those that had voted them in to office. Adkisson stated that he had held these beliefs for about the last ten years. Adkisson made statements that he had pre-planned this shooting and had began writing the letter for the last week," the search warrant reads.
which seems counter intuitive to me seeing he was upset his foodstamps
where being reduced. But of course don't try and make sense out of
the senseless.
The four page letter emphasized his hate towards liberals, according to police.
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=61374&catid=2

and, thank you sqkcrk. If it makes you feel any better, the candlelight vigil last night had a very good feeling about it.
About 1,000 people were there.

[JPK1NH]

JPK1NH, You state in your fist post that there is some political message
in the killings that has validity. That is the sickness that is wrong with this country.

Michael, none of my posts have a political spin. Please go back and re-read them.

Until the over-regulation/over-legislation of Citizens stops its likely that we will see many more people act out in different ways.



I support gun rights.

Great, I'm not sure why you felt a need to write a whole paragraph justifying it with a leftward political spin but nonetheless hopefully you will vote for someone that represents your views on these issues.

What even makes you think this tragedy is a good case for concealed carry?<<<<<>>>>>>So your
argument sucks, in addition to it being the very wrong thing at the wrong time.

Michael, the guy didn't pull the shotgun out of thin air...ever try to conceal a gun thats nearly 3' long?...he probably didn't take a bus or a taxi so I have to assume he either walked or drove his car.

In either case its very unlikely that he failed to pass multiple people....even when he parked the car, got out and then walked/staggered to up the stairs, into the church took aim and fired.....its highly unlikely that there was less than 30-60 seconds that elapsed in which any number of people that potentially could have been carrying would have been in a position to intervene....long before he so much as got off a shot....especially if he was drunk as some media outlets have alluded to.

"People" just don't "Snap" and until each of us as individuals start to come to grips with the reasons its going to continue....sticking our collective heads in the sand will only make things worse.

[JPK1NH]

"In an unpublished report, engineer..." really reaching here. :( i agree with your major beliefs (as i see them) on concealed carry but spinning facts and this kind of offensive digging for obscure "corroboration" turns people away from seriosly viewing your posts, hence "i don't want to debate.."

Mike, there's no spin.

5 minutes on google will point you to multiple hard references to support this.

Here's just one http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)


* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:




Florida United States

homicide rate -36% -0.4%
firearm homicide rate -37% +15%
handgun homicide rate -41% +24%

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

If you would like to further pursue the references please see the bottom of the page referenced above.

[George Fergusson]

Michael, the guy didn't pull the shotgun out of thin air...ever try to conceal a gun thats nearly 3' long?...he probably didn't take a bus or a taxi so I have to assume he either walked or drove his car.

It's been reported in several reports that I read that he concealed the shotgun in a guitar case.

Apparently you have not even bothered to read any of the news reports.

"People" just don't "Snap" and until each of us as individuals start to come to grips with the reasons its going to continue....sticking our collective heads in the sand will only make things worse.

Sure they do. What makes you think they don't? People who commit violent anti-social acts like this are mentally ill. Rational people don't do these things.

[JPK1NH]

It's been reported in several reports that I read that he concealed the shotgun in a guitar case.

Apparently you have not even bothered to read any of the news reports.

I have not seen that in any of the reports I have read.



[QUOTE=George Fergusson;339356]Sure they do. What makes you think they don't? People who commit violent anti-social acts like this are mentally ill. Rational people don't do these things.

I can't remember an incident where there were NOT a string of pretty obvious warning signs.....look at the Columbine kids, Cho at V Tech and a host of others....This guy is a prime example GF....its not the first time he's threatened to harm others.....not to mention a known drinking problem....which is a disqualifying condition on a 4473.

[George Fergusson]

While I do not condone what was done maybe people and politicians need to get the message that they need to stop meddling in other peoples lives.

Until the over-regulation/over-legislation of Citizens stops its likely that we will see many more people act out in different ways.

Edit: Barry, ask yourself why otherwise normal distinguished individuals find themselves pushed to situations where then respond as they do....

When pushed too far most anyone is capable of pushing back.

Take a good look at who our founding fathers were and why exactly they "Pushed Back", it was something like a 10% tax rate.

I can't remember an incident where there were NOT a string of pretty obvious warning signs.....look at the Columbine kids, Cho at V Tech and a host of others....This guy is a prime example GF....its not the first time he's threatened to harm others.....not to mention a known drinking problem....which is a disqualifying condition on a 4473.

Everything you have written suggests you believe this tragedy was the act of an otherwise rational person "pushed" to behave badly by "over-regulation" and "over-legislation", even going so far as to compare this lunatic's actions to those of the founding fathers of our country who were also "pushed too far". And we can look forward to more of the same until law makers "back off" and start removing laws from the books.

And in the meantime, your solution to the problem seems to be to promote the carrying of concealed weapons by more otherwise rational people so they can maybe shoot these people who have been exhibiting "warning signs" when they finally decide to "push back" for having been "pushed too far". Maybe you'd propose that anyone exhibiting a pattern of violent antisocial behavior maybe with a "known drinking problem" simply be detained for observation? As a precaution? Until enough laws can be removed from the books to reinstate the level of un-regulated, un-legislated society that no longer threatens the sanity of rational people, driving them to commit violent antisocial acts?

What I have not gotten from what you've written is that you sympathize in any way with the victims of this tragedy, or any helpful discussion from you at all. Using this particular thread as a platform to promote your own agenda is in poor taste.

[sqkcrk]

and, thank you sqkcrk. If it makes you feel any better, the candlelight vigil last night had a very good feeling about it.
About 1,000 people were there.

I read the description on the UUA website. It sounds like it was quite a moving ceremony. And a true testament to Unitarian Universalisms' views, what with the service being attended by so many peoples of differing faiths, UUs, Christians, Moslems, Jews, etc.

Or service this sunday has been changed to "TVUU Church, A Death in the Family", to give our congregation a time to talk about and reflect on the tragedy that could happen to any of us.

Thanks MichaelW. I wish I could have been there. I'm glad that you were.

Peace.

[sqkcrk]

Our responses to JPK1NH have been, in all likelihood, because we have assumed that he is a reasonable person. I'm not so sure of that any longer. Apparently he believes that there are supermen amongst us who can not only see through a guitar case but can also read the minds of high school students bent on killing fellow students.

Maybe I missed it, but no where in his posts did I read about how JPK1NH felt about what happened to the victims or about the bravery of those who responded to the perpitrator by risking their lives to protect others from further shotgun fire.

Heroic behavior is what I read about. People dying for their faith is what I read about. People who were celebrating life who had their lives interupted and didn't hesitate to do the right thing. Something that any of us may be called to respond to.

In our congregation, as in all of the other UU Churches I've attended, the man who died, who the press called an Usher, was filling the role of Greeter. A function I gladly preform at my church. I can picture him welcoming people at the door of the church and handing them a program. Greeting someone carrying a guitar case wouldn't be reason for suspicsion. So, how would one know that danger was present until it struck? You wouldn't.

As I said previously, the Greeters response was appropriate. I'm not sure if JPK1NH's is. Actually, I'm sure it's not.

[Sundance]

The nut case that did this is insane........ pure and simple.

If he hadn't blamed liberals, it would have been the purple
TeleTubby.

If anyone "pushed" him, it was the rabid right and hate filled
mantras that look to blame anything and anyone for their
predicament. All the while espousing "personal responsibility".

Back to the reason for this thread...... My thoughts are with
those that suffered a terrible loss.

[Bodo]

If anyone "pushed" him, it was the rabid right and hate filled
mantras that look to blame anything and anyone for their
predicament. All the while espousing "personal responsibility".


Umm, excuse me? If I'm conservative I'm full of hate? Seems like someone else has an anger issue...

[Sundance]

Umm, excuse me? If I'm conservative I'm full of hate? Seems like someone else has an anger issue...

Rabid Right does not equate to conservative...... in the least.

[JPK1NH]

Everything you have written suggests you believe this tragedy was the act of an otherwise rational person "pushed" to behave badly by "over-regulation" and "over-legislation", even going so far as to compare this lunatic's actions to those of the founding fathers of our country who were also "pushed too far". And we can look forward to more of the same until law makers "back off" and start removing laws from the books.

Actually George what I said was the Over-Regulation and People Being meddlesome and nosy have a great impact on a lot of people out there and until Gov and Individuals begin to respect the beliefs and rights of others we're going to see otherwise reasonable people go down the path to becoming like this guy, cho, and a host of others.

The issue is frequency....the more you push people the more problems we see in society.

This thread, your responses, Sundances Responses and sqkcrk's all prove my point quite nicely....in each case the three of you quite agressively tell me what I should or should not feel and say...how I should or should not act and when I disagree you resort to name calling and character assasination.

Frankly I could care less what your opinion is as long as you don't try to bludgeon me or anyone else with your opinions....we're all entitled to our own opinions but we're not entitled to our own facts.

The three of you act like bully's with language that I am surprised some of the mods did not take issue with...but then again two of you ARE mods so.... :rolleyes:

And in the meantime, your solution to the problem seems to be to promote the carrying of concealed weapons by more otherwise rational people so they can maybe shoot these people....[/rant]

Its a portion of the solution....its impossible to make criminals "go away" so the next best thing is to be prepared....if you choose to be....its my choice and your choice depending upon the state you live in.....notice that at no point in any of my posts did I tell you or anyone else that they SHOULD carry....only that people should have the CHOICE to protect themselves...if you're interested in learning more please go back to the supporting facts/references I posted....the stats from the UCR and several states don't lie and paint quite a picture.


What I have not gotten from what you've written is that you sympathize in any way with the victims of this tragedy, or any helpful discussion from you at all. Using this particular thread as a platform to promote your own agenda is in poor taste.

Again...you telling/suggesting how I should feel....I don't feel that its relevent and frankly its none of your business unless I choose to share my personal feelings.....and frankly I would be surprised if you didn't go off on a monologue about how people are supposed to feel and how they are wrong/bad people if they do not publicly present some particular "appropriate to you" display of sorrow.

We're all individuals and make personal choices in how we live and what we share with others...lets recall that document that makes some reference to "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness".....it would be a good first step for you start respecting the choices of others...

[MichaelW]

"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness"

Something denied to many this past Sunday.

Something fought for by the UU congregation.

Something that people like the killer despise,
and make it their mission to destroy.

If you see his act as having some justification,
I truly hope and pray you do not live in the same
hell he does.

The UU, or any liberals for that matter, did not 'push'
him to be an alcoholic, to get divorced four times, to
threaten to murder his wife then himself, to go on food
stamps, to not get a job, to not clean up, to not pursue
Happiness, to not live in Liberty, and to not Live.

[MichaelW]

'Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness'

There is a child who lived with her grandmother.
She was in a play. A friend of the grandmother lived
with her and cared for her. She has passed. The
grandmother currently can not care for her, while the mother
is unconscious.

What will this child know of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit
of Happiness? Who 'pushed' her away from that? It wasn't
a law, an opinion, an idea, or property rights. It was instead
an insane alcoholic whom had already denied his own right
to pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness.

[Hillside]

as long as you don't try to bludgeon me or anyone else with your opinions.

You have got to be kidding.

the more you push people the more problems we see

This guy was never "pushed" by anyone. His problems were all in his twisted mind. He refused to take responsibility for himself and blamed people who never did anything to to harm him. The people that he turned on were the very ones that were most likely to have helped him.

we're all entitled to our own opinions but we're not entitled to our own facts.

The facts are that this guy was a murdering lunatic and you keep trying to justify his actions.

[MapMan]

Why do you feel that it is necessary to have armed guards in a church, synagogue, place of worship, sanctuary, etc.? Violence will follow you wherever you go, such as strolling across campus at the University of Texas at Austin, eating a burger at a McDonald's in San Ysidro, CA, filling up your tank at a Exxon gas station in Richmond, VA, or reading a book at an Old Order Amish school near Nickle Mines, PA...

Mental and physical disease, emotional trauma are often triggers of the violence that these individuals hold in their hearts. There is evil around us, violence is going to happen, if you are armed with a loaded handgun -- or not.

What I don't understand with this topic is why it was posted to begin with - just because it was a church? There have been at least four fatal church shootings in the U.S. in the past year and one half. Perhaps to instill compassion in us, as we search for answers? The answer is prayer. Prayer for the victims, prayer for the mentally deranged shooter.

MM

[sqkcrk]

Umm, excuse me? If I'm conservative I'm full of hate? Seems like someone else has an anger issue...

I don't think that you were being pointed at. But at least one newspaper article has pointed out that alot of the books found in his home were Hannity, O'Rielly and Limbaugh authored. Amongst others.

I don't have anything against those guys. Mostly I think they're a hoot. When I occasionally tune them in while looking for something to watch. But some folks apparently take in what they have to say and ficsate on the hatred. Some even go so far as to take action such as Knoxville. The guy who did that has problems with his head far beyond any Left Wing or Right Wing Ideollogy.

[JPK1NH]

You have got to be kidding.

Do I?

This guy was never "pushed" by anyone. His problems were all in his twisted mind. He refused to take responsibility for himself and blamed people who never did anything to to harm him. The people that he turned on were the very ones that were most likely to have helped him.

And how it it that you are in a position to know his mental condition or what did or did not think/feel let alone who would be the most likely to help him? Its a long commute from Mn to Tn....

The police have not posted much about this beyond the fact that there are indications that he had been planning this for at lease a week....he had a couple of DWI's (why was he a habitual drinker?) not to mention a divorce that did not sound too amicable....including an allegation that the wife claimed he either threatened or initiated some sort of domestic violence.....I'm sure we can find a few people on the site that have been the innocent victim of a spouse playing the DV Card as leverage in a divorce/custody case.....

The point is that he didn't suddenly "Snap" as some claim and the vast majority of incidents like this portray a pretty clear escalation of behavior triggered in part by any number of events/poor personal decisions leading up to tragedy.....this is not an abdication in any way/shape or form for a persons actions rather it is a recognition of events that have contributed to the end result.

The facts are that this guy was a murdering lunatic and you keep trying to justify his actions.

When did I ever try to Justify his actions?

You are confusing the recognition of Cause and Effect Relationships with your false claim of Justification that I have never made.

[Bodo]

I don't think that you were being pointed at. But at least one newspaper article has pointed out that alot of the books found in his home were Hannity, O'Rielly and Limbaugh authored. Amongst others.



And the Unibomber had Al Gore's book. Can we blame his political views too? Seems like a stretch.

[sqkcrk]

Seems like a stretch.

It may be a stretch, but I was just reiterating what was written in an article from a Knoxville paper. Who got their info from the police apparently. I doubt that the reporters were allowed in the guys house.

I am in no way saying that there is any real way of saying what exactly influenced the guy or "made" him do what he did. Other than his own words. If his letter is accessible, I'd be interested in reading it. It might give us some insight into the mind of the man.

But knowing what was going on in his life before he struck, how would that help, exactly? Some seem to be suggesting that someone should have noticed what was going on and could have predicted that something was going to happen. If that were so, what should have been done to keep things from getting to where they got?

ps; The DV card? What a crock.

[JPK1NH]

But knowing what was going on in his life before he struck, how would that help, exactly? Some seem to be suggesting that someone should have noticed what was going on and could have predicted that something was going to happen. If that were so, what should have been done to keep things from getting to where they got?

Its called problem solving....its a Cause and Effect Relationship.....if you can determine the "Cause" or Causes then maybe over time people will be able to reduce or eliminate those causes without infringing upon the rights of others and hence eliminate/reduce the "Effect"

Here's an example.....people that eat at a particular Restaurant have a high incident of food poisoning/salmonilla....you choose....according to your approach there's no point into looking at the Cause.......when in reality its a problem that can be solved almost universally by following simple best practices for handling/storing foods and preventing cross contamination in food prep.

The issue of our church visitor that went postal is no different....more complicated perhaps......

ps; The DV card? What a crock.

It is until that card is played on you or you watch a number of people go through it.....its a standard tactic that any Family/Divorce Lawyer will acknowledge.....heck I was dating a bleeding heart Liberal a who was a public defender who even acknowledged the problem and widespread abuse of the DV Card.

[Bodo]

DV Card?

[JPK1NH]

DV Card?

Domestic Violence.

[Bodo]

ahh, ok. thanks!

[sqkcrk]

Here's an example.....people that eat at a particular Restaurant have a high incident of food poisoning/salmonilla....you choose....according to your approach there's no point into looking at the Cause.......when in reality its a problem that can be solved almost universally by following simple best practices for handling/storing foods and preventing cross contamination in food prep.

The issue of our church visitor that went postal is no different....more complicated perhaps......


When did I say there's no point into looking at the cause? What was the cause, in your opinion? You still haven't said anything about what you believe would actually do to stop what happened. Be specific, if you can. If what you are talking about is just how you wish things were, then say so. We don't live the world of "Minority Report". Not yet anyway.

I'll bet you can come up w/ a better analogy than the food poisoning as opposed to killing of liberals analogy. I don't see how you can equate the two. Flesh it out for me.

[JPK1NH]

When did I say there's no point into looking at the cause? What was the cause, in your opinion? You still haven't said anything about what you believe would actually do to stop what happened. Be specific, if you can. If what you are talking about is just how you wish things were, then say so. We don't live the world of "Minority Report". Not yet anyway.

There's no point in further speculation imo.

This guy didn't come to hate Liberals out of the blue......we all form opinions/beliefs based upon our experiences in life and facts/opinions that we are exposed to....there are a multitude of theories out there regarding Social/Human Development. Do some research if you're interested in more info.

I'll bet you can come up w/ a better analogy than the food poisoning as opposed to killing of liberals analogy. I don't see how you can equate the two. Flesh it out for me.

Sure but I would rather wait to hear details from the police than speculate any further.

I think I made the point quite clear that lots of people act/lash out due to being trampled by regulation and by other individuals trying to bludgeon them into accepting their own beliefs....several posters in this thread were kind enough to demonstrate that point rather nicely in their responses to my posts.

[MichaelW]

This guy didn't come to hate Liberals out of the blue.....
And white supremesits aren't born overnight either. (In sarcasm)

I don't know when I've seen someone hang on so long to such a bankrupt argument.

The difference between a civilized society and one that is not, is the
ability for people to accept their neighbors for who they are.

The only reason what you call 'liberal' laws exist is that people voted in representatives
that made those laws. Its called democracy. Love it or leave it, or
lobby for change.

[MichaelW]

JPK1NH,

Lets say for example your right about this guy, that he
had reasons, beyond his own mind, to hate liberals the
way he does. Also,
Lets say that we go ahead and instate whatever changes
to government you, or he, see as necessary. Then you
instead upset a whole other group of people, some of
which may do the same thing as this nut. There are
surely maniacs out there of the liberal persuasion that
might find an excuse to kill with the new rules you instate,
or remove. Maybe you would tick off someone by taking
away food stamps. Hmmm....

So again, your argument does not hold water.

[JPK1NH]

The only reason what you call 'liberal' laws exist is that people voted in representatives
that made those laws. Its called democracy. Love it or leave it, or
lobby for change.

MichaelW do you really naively believe that our elected officials represent their constituents 100% of the time?

If that were true then billions wouldn't be spent each year by K Street Lobbyists to influence votes on both floors of Congess.......same thing happens at State and Local levels on a smaller scale (usually).

A prime example of this was last summer when the Dems and noteworthy Reps pushed for AmNasty in both houses of Congress REPEATEDLY.....this was not the will of the Majority of US Citizens and in fact so many people were ticked off that so many calls were made to Congress that the volume caused the Capitol Phone System to shut down......clearly passing AmNasty was not the will of the Majority.....but the Left and certain members on the Right tried to shove the bill down the throats of Citizens 3 or 4 more times last summer between Pelosi and Reid......

Regarding your next post how do you justify infringing upon the rights of other people? Respecting the rights of individuals is the basis of my entire argument.......so how is it again that this doesn't hold water in your opinion?

[MichaelW]

.....clearly passing AmNasty was not the will of the Majority...
Not necessarily. Its not easy to say what the majority is until things go to ballot.
Phone calls just give the representatives an idea of what kind of responses they
are getting.


Regarding your next post how do you justify infringing upon the rights of other people?

I don't follow you there. This does not surprise me. The situation is hypothetical. It could
be that the changes instituted by you or him followed the democratic process. But I'm
not sure thats what you mean.

Respecting the rights of individuals is the basis of my entire argument.......so how is it again that this doesn't hold water in your opinion?
If thats the basis of your argument, you need to rethink the situation.

[MichaelW]

While I do not condone what was done maybe people and politicians need to get the message that they need to stop meddling in other peoples lives.

Until the over-regulation/over-legislation of Citizens stops its likely that we will see many more people act out in different ways.
I don't know how anyone could not read your statements as a logical justification of the
shooters actions. You argue the cause is something other then the own shooters
failure to be a civil human, and place blame on public officials.

[JPK1NH]

I don't know how anyone could not read your statements as a logical justification of the
shooters actions. Your argue the cause is something other then the own shooters
failure to be a civil human.

Michael, its stunning that you didn't read the first line of the post you just quoted.

Is it so hard for you to look beyond the end result and start looking at the reasons why people do this?

Is the concept of Causality so hard for you to accept?

Is it so hard for you to look at the history of mass shootings and wonder why these events were basically unheard of a few decades ago when we had far less regulation and infringement on life?

How would YOU explain the increase in shooting attempts like this over the last 3-4 decades?

Its certainly not a lack of Gun Control....we have more laws on the books than ever before.

Its certainly not a lack of entitlements...we have more of THOSE than ever before.

Its certainly not a Lack of Gov.....we have more of that than ever before....

Its certainly not a lack of capacity to gather information on individuals buying/travel/phone/eating habits...those we can track with your debit/credit card purchases and speedpass records amongst other things.

Its certainly not a lack of quality medical care...we live longer than ever before.

Its certainly not a lack of creature comforts...AC and Heat have never been more efficient and widespread than any other time in history.

What is it MichaelW?

Its absolutely laughable that you want to find fault in my argument because I apparently have not done or said something that you think I should have.....

How about looking past the emotions and start considering why this happens so we can make forward progress towards making sure it doesn't happen again or at least not as frequently.

[JPK1NH]

Not necessarily. Its not easy to say what the majority is until things go to ballot.
Phone calls just give the representatives an idea of what kind of responses they
are getting.


Michael, in our system of gov issues like this don't come to a vote or referendum...they are voted on by so called elected officials.

When the Public response is so great that they cause the Capitol phone system to be shut down for the first and only time in history I think its safe to say the will of the people is clear.....and yet Pelosi/Reid and others continued to try to force a vote on AmNasty 3 or 4 more times after that......this garbage happens all the time......if you look at your Reps/Senators voting record for the session you might be surprised how he has voted on issues.....Representative John J. Duncan, Jr is your rep...take a peek http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=27069

Once you start looking at the voting records of YOUR reps and those of others you will quickly see that they are not voting in the best interests of their constituent but rather they are voting lock step with the Party......this is MUCH more prevalent on the Left than the Right but it happens on both sides way too much.


I don't follow you there. This does not surprise me. The situation is hypothetical. It could
be that the changes instituted by you or him followed the democratic process. But I'm
not sure thats what you mean.

Not sure how much clearer I can get than what I said in my first post.

Respecting the rights of individuals is the basis of my entire argument

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....Your rights end where mine begin and my rights end where yours begin......

I'm not sure how much clearer it can be.

We have an expression up here in New England...."Good Fences make Good Neighbors." In a nutshell neighbors come together to build/repair stone walls/fences on property lines, it also serves to remind one another where the boundary is....everyone gets along great as long as they remember where the boundaries lie.

You mind your business and I'll mind mine and everyone gets along great,

The problems start when People and Government don't mind their own business and overstep their boundaries or the powers that were granted to them by the people.....don't misread this by making some absurd comment that I'm anti-gov....I'm not in any way/shape/form.....I just see a bunch of people that have overstepped their boundaries for a long time.....

A right that you don't exercise is soon forgotten and then lost.....sorta like muscles....use it or lose it.

Too many people are too distracted by the rat race that they have lost some of their rights or allowed so many infringements on then that they are essentially rights in theory but not in practice.

Lets all remember that Gov is there to serve the People not the other way around.

[sqkcrk]

There's no point in further speculation imo.

This guy didn't come to hate Liberals out of the blue......we all form opinions/beliefs based upon our experiences in life and facts/opinions that we are exposed to....there are a multitude of theories out there regarding Social/Human Development. Do some research if you're interested in more info.



Sure but I would rather wait to hear details from the police than speculate any further.

I think I made the point quite clear that lots of people act/lash out due to being trampled by regulation and by other individuals trying to bludgeon them into accepting their own beliefs....several posters in this thread were kind enough to demonstrate that point rather nicely in their responses to my posts.

Are you totaly unable to answer the questions that I asked? Or is it that you can't and therefore would rather not try?

On one hand you say that we need to respect the rights of individuals (I agree) and then you seem to believe that we/society aught to be able to see why and when some one will do something like shoot up a church service and do something about it before it happens. Which seems oxymoronic to me since you can't both respect the rights of the individual to do almost everything that the shooter did, except take life, and stop him beforehand, without infringing on his rights. Unless I'm missing something, which isn't impossible.

[JPK1NH]

Are you totaly unable to answer the questions that I asked? Or is it that you can't and therefore would rather not try?

Whats your question?

I will say this, if you're fishing for emotional responses don't bother posting the question.

On one hand you say that we need to respect the rights of individuals (I agree)

and then you seem to believe that we/society aught to be able to see why and when some one will do something like shoot up a church service and do something about it before it happens.

Incorrect. What I said was in response to a number of posters that made the false claim that people just "Snap". People don't just "Snap"...or at least the instances of that are nearly statistically insignificant.

What I said is that there are always warning signs and a Causal-Effect relationship between events in their lives and the final absurd acts that they sometimes initiate.

Cho/VT was a perfect example of this. He had a long history of mental illness, so much so that people around him, classmates and professors were afraid....so it comes as no surprise that Cho went off and killed 30 some off people......in a "Gun Free Zone" no less.

Which seems oxymoronic to me since you can't both respect the rights of the individual to do almost everything that the shooter did, except take life, and stop him beforehand, without infringing on his rights. Unless I'm missing something, which isn't impossible.

How so? Take Cho for example again....he spent time in an institution..., displayed all kinds of outward/public warning signs....to initiate some sort of investigation when someone demonstrates overt PUBLIC signs/symptoms like Cho is not unreasonable nor is it a violation of privacy because they opened themselves up to scrutiny by making it public knowledge.

Beyond that people need to consider the effect that ever increasing gov and regulation has on people and society....consider for a moment that you and I today could choose to live a private/secluded/peaceful life, pay our taxes and do nothing to harm/infringe upon the rights of others and we would STILL be unknowingly breaking SOME law....the point is is that there are so many laws and so many poorly written laws that some public servant can interpret some of them and twist them horribly.....

Remove the regulation induced stress from people's lives and and we'll see a lot less mental illness and people acting out.

My god, think about the 2A for a moment....we had to have a SCOTUS decision to tell us that the 2A is in fact an individual right?!?!? Which part of "Shall not be infringed" is not clear?


Unless I'm missing something, which isn't impossible.

Yikes....I hope that was a typo or missing some sort of indication that it was pure sarcasm.

[NeilV]

JP... ,

I think what you're missing here is that this guy's conduct was just plain evil and/or insane. I think you know what I mean by "evil." By insane, I am referring to the possiblity that the guy's brain was out of order to the extent that he either did not understand what he was doing or could not stop himself.

There is no justification/rationalization/explanation for this conduct. You have suggested that somehow his conduct possibly can be explained -- even to a little degree -- by some rational thought process involving political views. That is more than a little irritating to those of us who recognize pure evil and insanity when we see it.

Also, I will go on record as saying that, should any of you want to kill me, come shoot me while I'm in church. I'll leave my guns at home (and not regret it one little bit while you pull the trigger).

Just my 2 cents,

ndvan

[JPK1NH]

JP... ,

I think what you're missing here is that this guy's conduct was just plain evil and/or insane. I think you know what I mean by "evil." By insane, I am referring to the possiblity that the guy's brain was out of order to the extent that he either did not understand what he was doing or could not stop himself.

There is no justification/rationalization/explanation for this conduct. You have suggested that somehow his conduct possibly can be explained -- even to a little degree -- by some rational thought process involving political views. That is more than a little irritating to those of us who recognize pure evil and insanity when we see it.

Actually I have intentionally not involved any particular political views throughout the entire thread.

But what you refuse to recognize is that there is in virtually each and every one of these cases a very rational explanation or if you would prefer "explainable" reason for how an individual gets to the point where they decide that they are going to kill other people and/or in this case Why he wanted to kill these people.

Each of us is the sum total of our experiences combined with the decisions in life that we choose.

I don't buy the use of pure evil in this case.......apply it to Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and I would agree but this guy was just some poor slob that for some reason decided he was going to kill a couple of people/liberals and go down in a blaze of bullets for some real or imagined list of grievences.

[dragonfly]

JP... ,

By insane, I am referring to the possiblity that the guy's brain was out of order to the extent that he either did not understand what he was doing or could not stop himself.

There is no justification/rationalization/explanation for this conduct.



Well, if he's what you think of as insane (which is probably close to my own definition) that in itself *is* the justification. It's not that it justifies it to those of us who think in a more rational way, but in the mind of a person like this, it doesn't have to be rational or make sense to anyone else. The fact that it may be insane does not make it absent of explanation, and yes, there probably is a series of life events and influences that led directly to it.

[Hillside]

How would YOU explain the increase in shooting attempts like this over the last 3-4 decades?

Just thinking out loud here.

We already know that guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the majority of situations people with guns kill people. Maybe there are too many unstable people getting their hands on guns?

[JPK1NH]

Just thinking out loud here.

We already know that guns don't kill people, people kill people. In the majority of situations people with guns kill people. Maybe there are too many unstable people getting their hands on guns?

Hillside, your proposition treats a symptom and not the problem.

Why are there seemingly so many unstable/inappropriate people out there?

You can take away/restrict access to firearms, knives, baseball bats, forks and spoons but people are STILL going to commit violent crimes until you begin to consider the root cause.

The UK is going through this exact problem....they banned guns and gun crime went up....along with knife related crime.....so they banned knives and swords.....but the crime still increases.....they keep attacking the symptom and continue to fail to look at the reasons why people commit violent crime.....the more they clamp down on people the more crime rises.....

The UK now has a higher incidence of violent crime than we do in the US.

[Hillside]

You are passionate, but not persuasive. What is the cause. You imply certain laws. Which are they? Give us a list. Solve the problem if you have the formula.

[MapMan]

Incorrect. What I said was in response to a number of posters that made the false claim that people just "Snap". People don't just "Snap"...or at least the instances of that are nearly statistically insignificant.

What I said is that there are always warning signs and a Causal-Effect relationship between events in their lives and the final absurd acts that they sometimes initiate.


People do "snap". Evil is out there -- everywhere, and often when you least expect it. Sure, sometimes there are warning signs, but often individuals are good at masking those warning signs.

Here's a horrendous act from just last week - it happened in Canada:

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hf5AvgxchMtU8THJLwLSDO7g_qFw


Did he "snap"? You be the judge:

"[He] was a quiet and hard-working custodian at Grant Memorial Church"

..."the man never showed any sign of anger or emotional problems."

"He seemed like a person who was happy to have a job, was committed to doing it well and didn't stand out in any way (in terms of) having anger issues or having any other issues,"...

Church officials vetted Li by talking to people listed on his application as personal references. They also checked for a criminal record. There were no signs of trouble.

"We are very thorough in our assessments, and there was nothing we could have foreseen"...


MM

[JPK1NH]

You are passionate, but not persuasive. What is the cause. You imply certain laws. Which are they? Give us a list. Solve the problem if you have the formula.

Frankly I don't care about being persuasive....I only care about people respecting the rights of others......as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on me and others I could care less if you asserted that the moon was made of cheese.......

Here are a few articles on violent crime in the UK and 100 years of crime stats as well.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1546085/The-vagaries-of-UK-knife-crime-statistics.html

100 years of crime in the UK http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs/100years.xls

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1034621/Revealed-The-truth-knife-crime--soared-35-cent-parts-Britain.html
More absurdity
http://www.insight-security.com/facts-knife-crime-stats.htm
Legislation - with some bearing on knife crime

The law as it relates to people who carry knives is very complicated, and it is not always instantly clear what is legal and what is not, as in some instances, circumstances can have a direct bearing on the legality.

Generally speaking, knives where the blade folds into the handle, like the Swiss Army Knife, are not illegal, provided the blade is less than 3" (7.62cm) in length ...if however someone uses such a knife in a threatening way - then it may become illegal!

Some types of knife are ALWAYS ILLEGAL:

*

Flick Knives
*

Butterfly Knives
*

Disguised Knives

Relevant key legislation includes:


Violent Crime Reduction Act (2006)
- Banned the sale of knives to the under 18 year olds


Knives Act (1997)
- Prohibited the sale of combat knives


Offensive Weapons Act (1996)
- Prohibited the sale of knives to the under 16 year olds


Criminal Justice Act (1988)
- Published a list of prohibited martial arts style weapons and made it an offence to carry an article with a blade or sharp point in a public place


Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (1959)
- banned the carrying, manufacture, sale, purchase, hire or lending of flick-knives and "gravity knives"


Prevention of Crime Act (1953)
- made it an offence to have an offensive weapon in a public place: including any article made or adapted for use for causing injury to any person


If you can't see the evidence in front of your face then there's nothing more I can say that is going to change your mind.

Keep believing whatever makes you feel good. Reality is a tough thing to deal with.

[JPK1NH]

People do "snap". Evil is out there -- everywhere, and often when you least expect it. Sure, sometimes there are warning signs, but often individuals are good at masking those warning signs.

Here's a horrendous act from just last week - it happened in Canada:

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5hf5AvgxchMtU8THJLwLSDO7g_qFw


Did he "snap"? You be the judge:

"[He] was a quiet and hard-working custodian at Grant Memorial Church"

..."the man never showed any sign of anger or emotional problems."

"He seemed like a person who was happy to have a job, was committed to doing it well and didn't stand out in any way (in terms of) having anger issues or having any other issues,"...

Church officials vetted Li by talking to people listed on his application as personal references. They also checked for a criminal record. There were no signs of trouble.

"We are very thorough in our assessments, and there was nothing we could have foreseen"...


MM

Sure, and there are people running around with "666" tattooed to their foreheads....

You completely gloss over major pieces of info like basing the assessment you reference on a church official who's MAYBE known the guy for up to 4 years since he immigrated to Canada from China.....what about the the first four decades of his life.....the church official that was interviewed knew him for what....a year?!?!?

He lied to his wife claiming that he had to deal with a "Family Emergency" but then seemingly randomly gets on a bus to nowhere? No THATS not a sign of issues in your life....

Come on....get real.

We won't get any real info on the case since its under Canadian jurisdiction and they have a ban on releasing info on open cases until they are tried and completed.....

Just because you can't immediately explain it based on the info you get from main stream media doesn't mean its only explanation is that he "Snapped" or he was "Evil"....

Whats next? Are you going to call for witch burnings?

[dragonfly]

Maybe there are too many unstable people getting their hands on guns?

And maybe there are just too many unstable people.

[Hillside]

And maybe there are just too many unstable people.

Is it easier to remove weapons from the hands of those unstable people or is it easier to remove the unstable people?

[JPK1NH]

Is it easier to remove weapons from the hands of those unstable people or is it easier to remove the unstable people?

That depends....if you have the weapons I would say its easier to remove the unstable people.....




Before anyone starts a flame war.....let me be clear that I was just kidding (I think), ROFLMAO.......

To seriously answer your question neither...you will NEVER EVER succeed at removing weapons from people....try it and all you get are honest people turning them in....the criminals and deviants will never turn them in.....and then you are left with a situation where you're doing nothing but infringing upon the rights of the law abiding....crime goes up because only criminals have guns and the police have no obligation to protect you as per a Supreme Court Decision within the last decade......

[dragonfly]

That depends....if you have the weapons I would say its easier to remove the unstable people.....

......

Hey man, you stole my line;)

[JPK1NH]

Hey man, you stole my line;)

:D

ROFLMAO

I'm sorta surprised that I haven't been called the Anti-Christ yet for making that comment.

[WannaBee]

:D

ROFLMAO

I'm sorta surprised that I haven't been called the Anti-Christ yet for making that comment.

It is so good to hear that I am not the only one who thought that way:)

I do believe that Jesus would understand;) He did tell us to be aware of the signs of the time.

In the meantime Keep your powder dry

WB

[Hillside]

That depends....if you have the weapons I would say its easier to remove the unstable people.....


The experts claim there's a little truth in every jest :)

[JPK1NH]

The experts claim there's a little truth in every jest :)

"Lighten up Francis"

-Bill Murray in "Meatballs"

[dragonfly]

Well, it's pretty clear you were being funny. At least it was to me.

[LEAD PIPE]

"Lighten up Francis"

-Bill Murray in "Meatballs"


"Stripes"

and it was by old sergeant Hulka

[JPK1NH]

"Stripes"

and it was by old sergeant Hulka

You're RIGHT, can't believe I bolluxed that one.

That was a great movie.....I need to rent it and watch it again.

[dragonfly]

The experts claim there's a little truth in every jest :)

I don't know if the experts claim it, but I believe there's a little jest in truth as well.

[sqkcrk]

Yikes....I hope that was a typo or missing some sort of indication that it was pure sarcasm.

Nope, no sarcasm, just admitting that I either don't understand you or some of your positions and seek better understanding and clarification.

I think you have pretty much answered my questions. Thanks.

[sqkcrk]

:D

ROFLMAO

I'm sorta surprised that I haven't been called the Anti-Christ yet for making that comment.

Okay, you're the anti-christ. Satisfied? :)

You asked for it. But I don't believe it.

[Hillside]

Sometimes there are no bad guys involved.
--------

From the Minneapolis StarTribune --

Loaded, unlocked handgun: Girl, 6, kills brother, 3

By LORA PABST, Star Tribune

Last update: August 6, 2008 - 10:35 AM

A 3-year-old boy from Nerstrand, Minn., died Tuesday after being accidentally shot in the head by his 6-year-old sister, who was playing with a handgun, according to the Rice County Sheriff's Office.

The Rice County Sheriff's office today identified the boy as Anthony Brastad.

His sister, Lisa Brastad, was handling a loaded, unlocked .357-Magnum revolver that the two children had found in an unlocked night stand in the upstairs bedroom of their home, said Rice County Sheriff Richard Cook.

[John F]

Sometimes there are no bad guys involved.


This is an example of a bad choice on the part of the gun owner.

As sad and upset as you feel, imagine his/her pain.

[wayacoyote]

A place of worship???!!! <snip>

Carrying concealed weapons, unless you are a police officer or other person involved directly in security, is ridiculous. How many other people would have been shot if everyone stood up from their pews and let off volleys of gunfire at this assasin? Americans need to get over their fear of the others, both here and abroad. I'm an ER doc, trained in the Bronx, NY, work currently in Oakland, CA, and health care workers in ER's are relatively frequent victims of assault, I personally prefer to keep my eyes and ears open. Concealed weapons are the crutch of the fearful.

Doug

Doug,
Let me ask this regarding your issue with "fear". I'm sure your profession as an ER doc will give some insight on this:
Would you that these are also crutches to the fearful?
wearing seat belts
home insurance
health insurance
life insurance
security alarms and locked doors


You stated yourself about the frequency of assault. Keeping your eyes and ears open are great ways to protect youself. And in every self-defense and weapons training class I've attended, that was stressed as the first step. Just like well-trained emergency responders are taught to assess the situation before taking action, that is a fundamental to well-prepared armed responders.

You stated that it is ridiculous to carry a gun unless a police officer or someone involved directly in security. I guess that makes sense.... so that only applies to the ones directly involved in committing crimes as everyone else IS directly involved in security... their own security and that of their family. There is a growing number of churches who organize and train a security team, the crutch of which are members who have ccw's. People have a right to worship without fear. And I'm never afraid when I know that someone is watching my back while my eyes are closed. Just as I don't drive in fear while everyone is buckled in my car. Naturally, I don't go ramming into things. I, too, keep my eyes and ears open to avoid collisions as possible. But I'll wear my seat belt while driving. I'll keep my health insurance paid up incase some accident happens to me, and I'll carry my gun incase the worst happens. I'm not afraid. I'm prepared. And I'll hope that I'll never need any of those things.

I find it funny that there seems to me so many people "afraid" of law-abiding and armed citizens while calling those proactive and responsible citizens "fearful". Let our society fight the criminals for a change and leave the good citizenry alone.

[MichaelW]

I've been on vacation a while, and now my time is more limited but wanted
to give one last closing salutation.

Ndvan sums it up pretty good

There is no justification/rationalization/explanation for this conduct. You have suggested that somehow his conduct possibly can be explained -- even to a little degree -- by some rational thought process involving political views. That is more than a little irritating to those of us who recognize pure evil and insanity when we see it.


and,

We are more free now then this society has ever been. I suggest deep reading for JPK... about the history of the US.

Nice chatting, and so long for now.

[John F]

We are more free now then this society has ever been.

Not true.
Kill the Fed.

[dragonfly]

We are more free now then this society has ever been.

How do you figure?

[MichaelW]

To just name a few,
Native American situation,
slavery,
Jim Crow laws, civil rites etc.
The history of coal mining, and govt. roles in that which instituted a virtual slavery situation
The collusion between police and prisons to arrest able bodied men to put them to work.
The civil war era
the drafts
Reduction in pollution that effects the freedom to not be killed by industrial chemicals
involuntary human testing by govt. agencies - don't think this was rare. I know at least two people whom where effected. One lost a baby over it.
Eminent Domain - still bad, but not as bad as it has been


Sure we have lost ground in some areas, but for the most part
this is a very free society. The modern economy, education, and
access to health care probably has the most to do with it. We
should always be vigilant to encourage, keep, and increase real
freedom, but be thankful of how far we have come.

[sqkcrk]

MichaelW,

How are the injured and the rest of the congregation? I understand that they have returned to using their church again. How have they reacted to the shooting? Has anything changed securitywise?

We discussed this at Church Council lastweek, as far as our own church is concerned. A review of our security/fire plan will be reported on at next council, but I don't anticipate any real changes or alterations of how things are done now. How can one really prepare for an incident like what happened at TVUUC? The congregants of TVUUC showed us how to react to such a situation, imo.

[John F]

To just name a few,...

But you said "has ever been;" and then suggested deep reading for JPK. What would you have him read?

I do agree that we should delight in the freedoms we still have. For one thing, we have the freedom to demand back the freedom we have lost.

Oh, and the situation with the Native Americans isn't exactly a bright spot of freedom.

[LEAD PIPE]

We have a security team at my church made up of church members. There are always 2-3 armed people in church during a service. Very few people know this. The church provides us with information via e-mail of any threats or concerns. They have the same philosophy as me; the only way to stop a bad person with a gun intent on killing people is a good guy with a gun.

[mike haney]

We have a security team at my church made up of church members. There are always 2-3 armed people in church during a service. Very few people know this. The church provides us with information via e-mail of any threats or concerns. They have the same philosophy as me; the only way to stop a bad person with a gun intent on killing people is a good guy with a gun.

your church is your church and how its opperated is of concern only to its members because of our free society. i'm thanking God for my freedom to not be involved in that.

[sqkcrk]

We have a security team at my church made up of church members. There are always 2-3 armed people in church during a service. Very few people know this. The church provides us with information via e-mail of any threats or concerns. They have the same philosophy as me; the only way to stop a bad person with a gun intent on killing people is a good guy with a gun.

Do they attend another service later in the day, unarmed and not on duty? Or do they get as much from the service as they would otherwise?

"Very few people know this." Do you mean that the fact that 2 or 3 people may be armed while services are going on is not known by everyone? Or that everyone is not informed about the identities of who is armed? Do those who are armed know who the other armed persons are? Not knowing could cause problems, don't ya think?

Have you received any e-mail warnings of threats? Why did your church decide to impliment this policy?

[Barry]

http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/faith/ci_10047428



Jeff Hawkins, of Answers in Genesis, a ministry in Petersburg, Ky., said the mind-set of congregations acting as safe havens need to change. Last month, his book, "An Introduction to Security & Emergency Planning for Faith-Based Organizations," was released.


Hawkins said Wednesday that many faith-based organizations are not prepared to handle security and emergency planning.


He said a lot of it has to do with wanting to remain open and accessible to everybody — not as an "armed encampment."


Answers in Genesis, which is dedicated to enabling Christians to defend their faith, keeps its uniformed armed officer visible to act as a deterrent. And congregations that take up a more progressive stance need to assess their risks, Hawkins said.


"Religion is a very emotional topic," he said. "Emotion sometimes brings out the worst in people."

[LEAD PIPE]

Do they attend another service later in the day, unarmed and not on duty? Or do they get as much from the service as they would otherwise?

"Very few people know this." Do you mean that the fact that 2 or 3 people may be armed while services are going on is not known by everyone? Or that everyone is not informed about the identities of who is armed? Do those who are armed know who the other armed persons are? Not knowing could cause problems, don't ya think?

Have you received any e-mail warnings of threats? Why did your church decide to impliment this policy?

1 service, I usually sit with my wife and kids.

Only a few people know about the armed security team. Yes we know who other people on the team are. Yes, I agree not knowing would cause problems.

Yes we have received warnings; most are from people with mental issues who have something against the church. These are nothing out of the ordinary and none that I saw gave me any real cause for concern.

They implemented the policy because they care about the safety of the people in the church. They are proactive "what are we going to do if it happens here" as apposed to "I hope it doesn’t happen here".

The truth is that they had armed security in the church before they put this policy in place. They just didn’t know it (I’m sure this is true in many churches) the only difference is now it is a bit more organized which is a good thing.

I wish the schools had something like this. Lock down policy…. Please.


Anyone who has kids and the school they go to has a lock down policy (if there is an intruder in the school all the interior and exterior doors are locked) answer me this? If the doors are all locked how do the police get in? Most schools have a policy that locks the bad guys in with your kids and locks the good guys out. Great planning there

[sqkcrk]

Thanks for the replies Barry and Lead Pipe. Very educational and good food for thought. It looks like you have a well thought out plan. I'm sure, like me, you hope you never have to use it. Like a fire drill. It's better to be prepared, I guess.