preparing for my first cutout/extraction. Advice please!

[hummingberd]

Hello-

I'm planning on doing my first cutout/extraction next Tuesday. This colony is pretty darn big. They have taken up shop in an apartment building, and are now getting into the interior of one of the units. The colony encompasses a 4ft tall by 10ft long wall. I can hear them when I put my ear up to the wall, and I can actually hear them chewing and moving around when I stand next to the window.
I've never done this before, but I have a feeling that these people are close to just hosing the colony with raid or worse. So even though I'm nervous, I'm taking on this job! I've already forewarned them that if they kill the bees, they'll have a bunch of dead bees infested with insecticide, and a buffet for mice and ants. I also warned them that once they spray the bees, they won't get any beekeeper on planet earth to do the cutout, because no one wants tainted honey, wax, and a bunch of dead bees.

So, for those of you who have done this before, could you help me out? I'm looking for details on what I can expect, and what I should bring for tools. Unfortunately, This apartment is on the 3rd floor, so I won't be able to leave a colony directly outside, but perhaps I can coax the management company into letting me leave the colony somewhere on the property so i can collect the missing foragers. Any and all suggestions you have are appreciated. :D

Thanks!

[J-Bees]

Man I feel for you, I bloched my first extraction. it is a lot of work but if you can get the queen first they will follow so I am told.

does that apt have a balcony to set up bee keeping on??

Good luck.

JB:}

[Ross]

You'll want lots of plastic for the floor and to create a plastic wall to contain the bees in one area.
You'll need the tools to break into the wall. You'll want to do this as quickly and quietly as possible. I would bore a hole and smoke them a bit first. You'll need a bunch of plastic buckets or bins for comb. You'll need frames and rubber bands. You'll probably want a frame of brood to help keep the bees in the box. I take butcher knives, scrapers, nail bars, hammers, a sabre saw, tape for the plastic, a step stool or short ladder, a shop vac (brutal, but you should leave it ready for repair).

[dickm]

THINK mONEY. I CHARGE A MINIMUM OF $200. That gets them 2 hours. After that it's $100 per hour. It will take longer, be more difficult and more miserable than you think. Then the bees you get may not be worth much. It's getting late in the season. People salvage the brood but thats more of an art than not. Be certain they don't expect you to put the house back together. If you do finish, spray the void with bee-quik and fill with foam or insulation. Take pix.

Good luck

dickm

[iddee]

As much as I would like to help you, I have to say, I think you are biting off more than you can chew. The situation you are describing, it will be like instructing you on how to pilot a plane when you have never flown. You are talking 6 hours minimum for two strong people, then a return trip with no estimate on time for the second or third trip. You may also be held liable for any stings the tenants may get.

That being said, if you still insist on doing it, send me your phone number and I will call you. Be ready for a 1 hour phone conversation the first call, and maybe a follow up call or two.

[jeff123fish]

Water lots of water both for you to drink and to wash yourself and your tools this time of year they prob have quite a bit of honey being put away and it is a very hot sweaty and sticky job.
good luck jeff

[hummingberd]

sheesh, you guys are freaking me out. I know this is going to be difficult. I have already told them I'm charging $35/hr per person and my hubby is coming with me. We will be working from inside the apartment, not from the outside. All of the furniture will have to be moved out of the room, and we are planning to plastic off the whole room. We have told the management company that we are not putting the space back together. We are only making a hole in the wall, and taking out the bees, and comb. Lots of people do extractions, and each of you had a "first" experience. If I bring all the right tools, and take my time, I should be alright, right?

We are planning on taking some frames and cutting them in half, wiring them putting hinges on so we can place sections of comb in them, and plop em right in a box.

I'm wondering if I should plan on ordering a caged mated queen to lure the ladies in? What do you think of that?

Look, I mastered doing no handed backflips on a 4 in wide balance beam. This can't be worse than this, right? :D

Iddee, I'll probably take you up on that phone call...

[iddee]

Yes, we all had our first time. I have been stung 200 times in one day. I would like to spare you that experience.

A removal now may actually be stingless for me.

Do your homework well and you can do it. Just don't think it will be as simple with a 60,000 bee hive in July as it would be a 15,000 bee hive in March. I will help you any way I can, but I just want you to realize there are much easier removals available to choose as your first. Please do take me up on the phone call if you are going to do this one.

A new queen will not help with a removal. They have their own queen and will only go to a new one to kill her. How you remove the comb will have a... LOT...to do with whether you get the hive queen or not.

[papa bear]

thanks hummingberd, i was looking at doing my first cut out. mine looks a lot simpler. they have gotten into a boarded of window frame on an old building. i have watched removals. and have a plan. one question, any suggestion on keeping them from returning there? when the main hive gone will the forager and the stragglers stick around long? i know to seal up the hole. would it do any good to to fill up the space? thanks.....idee i think i have your number you might hear from me

[hankdog1]

One good peice of advice i didn't see anyone mention is make sure you put some green grass on top of your fuel in your smoker you sure as heck don't want a hot ember burning down the building

[Chef Isaac]

you are not charging enough.

[Chef Isaac]

humming: It would be wise to take pictures and send them to iddee so he can help and also converse with him a while before you do this job.

[silvsk]

My experience, whether cutting for a plumbing leak, bees, or whatever. It is easy to cut too small a hole in the wall. Wherever you think they are, cut a much larger hole. If nothing else, it gives an opportunity to check insulation, etc.
Nothing takes more time than cutting a small hole, and then needing to cut again and again to chase the problem.

[hummingberd]

One good peice of advice i didn't see anyone mention is make sure you put some green grass on top of your fuel in your smoker you sure as heck don't want a hot ember burning down the building

awesome advice hankdog1. My husband did this for me one day when he got the smoker going for me. I was really excited he knew to do that. It also helps to keep the smoke a little cooler!! :)

[hummingberd]

humming: It would be wise to take pictures and send them to iddee so he can help and also converse with him a while before you do this job.

Also good advice. I still haven't heard back from the management company yet. I called them, and the guy told me "if you can't get to it by the end of this week, I have to find someone else." I'm pretty sure he's trying to pressure me into getting this done. But I calmly told him "If you can find someone else to do it sooner, I completely understand. However, I work full time running my company and I can't get to it until next Tuesday."

Frankly I'm not desperate to do this cutout. I had a feeling that it was going to be extremely difficult and complicated. However, I just know that these people are going to ignore me and douse the girls with insecticide if I don't take on the job. It would be such an awful thing to waste such a strong, and seemingly healthy colony.

Iddee, I'll PM you my phone number. Thanks for your willingness to help me :) Advice of experienced beekeepers like yourself is what keeps the world of beekeeping, going.

[hummingberd]

one question, any suggestion on keeping them from returning there? when the main hive gone will the forager and the stragglers stick around long? i

I've heard you can use the Fischer's beequick, and I've also heard that pinesol works. It was suggested to me, via this post (I believe) to fill the space with something like foam insulation. That I'm leaving up to the management company! Good luck with your extraction :)

[Troy]

Some of the lessons I have learned, and equipment you'll need.

1. Lots of buckets. You'll need buckets to put honey comb in, buckets to put brood comb in and buckets to wash your hands and equipment in. 10 buckets (with air tight lids) is not too many. I have used 7 buckets on a job and wished I had more. I don't spend too much time saving the old comb. I just give them one frame of young brood and move on.

2. Go to the bathroom first. Once you plastic up that room and open the wall, you will not be able to get out.

3. Consider an airlock type space. Two layers of overlapping plastic to go thru to get out of the room, or else you'll have problems with bees getting in the rest of the apartment.

4. Make sure there is only one window in the room with light coming in. Make sure it is open for bees to get out and black out any other windows before you start.

5. Lights. You'll want several lights and it would be best if they were florescent so they are not adding heat to a small room. I also bring a couple flashlights so you can shine down in the wall cavity to see what is going on.

6. I would not attempt a closed in job like this without a vacuum.

7. In fact 2 vacs might be good. One for bees and one to vacuum up the mess. With a wet vac you could spray water in the cavity and then vacuum it up and get most of the honey. Remeber a Bee Vac is NOT just a shop vac. If you just vacuum them up they will die. Search around for info on a bee vac and watch carefully.

8. A sharpie to mark the frames and buckets.

9. Duct Tape and Packaging Tape to Seal things.

10. Plan on not getting the queen. With all this rough handling, she usually doesn't make it. So plan to buy/order one to get the hive established as quickly as possible so they can draw new wax and store enough honey to make it through your winter.

[mike haney]

i have to agree with idee this is a whale of a job. the cheap pressure tactics from the manager would be reason enough for me to walk away 'cause i dont trust folks like that. been sued lately? they are preying on your concern for the bees. i'd decline. good luck,mike

[Troy]

Oh yeah, and I meant to say - you're not charging enough.

I always figure that a removal "could" ruin my bee suit, so I factor the cost of a new suit into the deal.

minimum I would charge is $300 and that gets them 3 hrs of your time. $25 per hr extra for your hubby helper, and all sheet plastic, 5 gal buckets, paper towels, etc (all consumables) will be on the invoice too. Anything over 3 hrs is $125 per hour. ($100 for you and equipment and another $25 for the hubby helper)

Don't shortchange yourself. These removals and the skill to deal with bees is in short supply - you should be adequately compensated.

[hummingberd]

well, I just got off the phone with Iddee. We had a wonderful conversation and I can't thank him enough.

As for the rest of you (ok, that reads really funny doesn't it?) I appreciate all of your thoughts. The management company called me back today and the guy said "yeah Tuesday will work, apparently we can't find anyone to do this AT ALL!" I may be young, but I ain't stoopid! I spent a whole day on the phone a couple of weekends ago trying to find someone to do a cutout at a different location! And out of about 50 beekeepers, I only found 1 who would take on the job. Even he was hesitant! :)

Really, everyone I appreciate the advice. If there's anything else you want to add, I'll keep checking this thread right up until I leave the house on Tuesday.

What I know I'll get out of this experience:

1.) More stings than I ever wanted (even if it's only one. What? I don't like stings!! :D)

2.) An interesting experience.

3.) some really good footage on my home video camera. Ever heard the phrase "hold my beer, and watch this" ?

4.) I darn well better get some honey out of this!! Ok, I won't hold out, but I hope I do get some!

[Monie]

"Hold my beer, and watch this!" ...lol. What're a redneck's last words? :D

I'll be thinking of you. Good luck!!! :)

[Oldbee]

"Could someone tell me how these work? It's probably so simple, I just don't see it."

"Ok, so the white pieces need to be snapped into place correctly. How do I know it's done correctly?" Pardon me for being so lame, but I just can't seem to envision how the bees access the syrup without getting in to drown in the syrup". From: "help with hive top feeder". --hummingberd.

And you are actually going to do this MAJOR cutout [advised not to by iddee]??? from the 4th [maybe third] floor of an apartment building?? My 'prayers' are with you; lol.-- OB.

'some really good footage on my home video camera'. Ever heard the phrase "hold my beer, and watch this'?--hberd.-- Nooo, but I have heard/watched the TV., 'funniest videos'; YOU will win the $10,000+ prize, for sure! lol. OB.

P.S.,,, i have never done a cut-out!, lol. I am sure you will do a GREAT job!!

[dickm]

I imagine the bees to be between the studs and with long comb that can be sliced up easily. Then they end up between the floor joists! Use some way to pinpoint them. Stethoscope, Thermometer or drill holes. In general I say go for it. What the heck, it's an adventure.

Dickm

[iddee]

Hummingberd, Here's a nice one for you. Four stories up on a black rubber roof, temp. in the 90's. Roof closer to 140 degrees, looking down on concrete below.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/4%20story%20removal/bees019.jpg

Or comb from ceiling to floor:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/Carolynshouse013.jpg

But if she can do it, you can do it.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/Bees4.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/Bees3.jpg

If you didn't find my bee vac photos, here is a direct link.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/BEE%20VAC/

[hummingberd]

I imagine the bees to be between the studs and with long comb that can be sliced up easily. Then they end up between the floor joists! Use some way to pinpoint them. Stethoscope, Thermometer or drill holes. In general I say go for it. What the heck, it's an adventure.

Dickm

thanks dickm! Im glad to get as much support as possible!

Iddee, thanks for the photos and the link. Who's the lovely young lady in the photos? Glad she was successful with her cutout. :)

[hummingberd]

"Could someone tell me how these work? It's probably so simple, I just don't see it."

"Ok, so the white pieces need to be snapped into place correctly. How do I know it's done correctly?" Pardon me for being so lame, but I just can't seem to envision how the bees access the syrup without getting in to drown in the syrup". From: "help with hive top feeder". --hummingberd.

And you are actually going to do this MAJOR cutout [advised not to by iddee]??? from the 4th [maybe third] floor of an apartment building?? My 'prayers' are with you; lol.-- OB.

Dang it I knew those posts were going to come back to bite me in the butt! :D In my defense, those hive top feeders are strange! I figured it out BTW :) just so you can have some piece of mind.

[iddee]

She's my sister's daughter-in-law......Also, the cut-out was in her living room. :eek:

Thanks, we think she's cute, too, and glad to have her in the family.

[Walt McBride]

Hummingberd you did not explain how the bees are entering the wall void.
Your responsibility of the job is not over untill you locate and permanently close the opening/openings.
I allways close from the outside and inside. Third floor closure will have to be from the inside.
Do not rely on a third party doing the work for you as they will not be a beekeeper and may leave openings to allow an other swarm to enter at a later date.
Walt

[Oldbee]

"In my defense, these hive top feeders are strange! I figured it out , just so you can have some piece of mind". --hummingberd.

I would like some,..'peace of mind',..if that's possible. I will 'sleep' better tonight. thanks. lol.

Yes, those hive-top feeders can be a problem! An interesting thread.

[iddee]

Walt, I never close the openings. I go in with the understanding that all repairs will be done by someone else. I don't want to do the second year for free. And, yes, I have done the second year. They can talk to their contractor for reimbursement. I am a beek, not a carpenter.

[alpha6]

No one has mentioned getting the owners to sign a liability release that also details what you are going to do. Remove the bees and comb "to the best of your ability". It should also state that the owners will be responsible for any and all repairs and that you are not liable for any damage to the building to include wiring and plumbing.

You need to get it in writing. Many times their idea of what you are going to do and your idea are completely different. Protect yourself. Oh and you are not charging near enough. :D Make sure you invoice them for any supplies you use and they know that this is not included in the hourly rate.

[beyondthesidewalks]

Iddee, you're a generous man. The world needs more like you.

Hummingberd, there are lots of threads with advice on cutouts in this forum. I'd recommend that you find all the threads and pictures you can and learn as much from them as you can before you start. You'll benefit greatly from others experiences if you do.

A spray bottle of sugar water might be helpful. Wet bees don't fly well and it slows them down some. Also, whatever you're bringing to put the bees in, you might buy or make a swarm lure to put in the box. It approximates the Nasonov pheromone and says "the queen is here" even if she isn't. I didn't see anyone mention a bee brush. It's one of your most important tools for cleaning the bees off the honeycomb. I've known beekeepers who don't even own one. I don't know how I'd survive without it.

If you can, before you disrupt the bees too much, I like to get the brood in my box quickly. Sometimes you can get the queen before she runs. If she runs you may never get her. To facilitate this, using swarm frames makes the job of getting the brood in the hive that much faster. If you can get the queen in your box the bees might be more interested in getting with her and the brood and less interested in you.

Don't worry about the honey comb. You'll need to just grab it and put it in buckets. This late in the year you might want to crush and strain it to feed back to these bees and get them built up for winter. You'll probably need to feed them all winter.

Lots of good advice here. A contract or letter of indemnity might be helpful if things don't turn out like you planned. They hardly ever do. There's always a surprise or two so be as prepared as possible.

Good luck!

[gingerbee]

Best of luck with your cut-out. Hope all goes well. Will check back Wednesday to see how it went.

[mike haney]

"No one has mentioned getting the owners to sign a liability release " i alluded to it when i asked if she'd been sued lately. people that use cheap pressure tactics like this manager she's dealig with are pretty ruthless in my experience. the more i think about it the less inclined i would be to deal with this mess , release,contract or whatever. good luck to her,mike

[hummingberd]

Ok, well my cutout was given away to someone else :( Too bad. I was looking forward to it. Now I'm on the hunt for another chance. Thanks for all the great advice. i feel like I'm much better prepared when the next opportunity presents itself.

And I'm NOT intimidated by the idea of taking these jobs on, regardless of how incapable I may "seem" :)

[Monie]

Too bad is right. I hope he didn't "give it away" to an exterminator!

[alpha6]

Hey Hummer I don't think we ever doubted your abilities and getting advice here from people who have done them was a pretty smart move.

Good luck on the next one...I am sure you will be more then ready by then.

[gingerbee]

I don't think anyone here was saying you couldn't do it, just that it would be hard for someone with little experience. All the suggestions made were positive by people who care and wish you the best.

[mike haney]

any way to keep tabs on this project? sounds like a whale of a learning experience and i confess i'm curious as to who they got and what they do . try to keep us posted. thanks,mike

[eggsnhoney]

Hi Iddee,
We are the people who wrote the first thread about advice for gettng bees out of the house, does your phone call offer include us too?? We've already gotten a lot of the bees from the house but as we said before, not sure we got the queen, but were wondering if you have a better way than suction we'd love to hear other effective methods as well as any advice you can offer for what we've already done. We're givng the bees sugar syrup now and there seems to be quite activity so far.
Thanks in advance.

[iddee]

Check your pm's.

[Aram]

Hummingberd, don't feel too bad about it. You got a lot of good advice and there will be others. I'm sure you'd have done all right. Hopefully your next call will be more sane. It's nice when you can start with easier ones so you want to still do them.