Old Certan?

[Tia]

I have some Certan that I mixed up last year. It's been sitting in a cool spot inside my house. Is it still good?

[drobbins]

I believe after you mix it the shelf life is a couple days
smell it, I think it will be sour

Dave

[sc-bee]

Has to be used shortly after mixing (day or two) --- my understanding is the BT dies if not used and stored mixed.

[Ross]

If that's true, how do you get a residual effect in the hive? I bought mine pre-mixed several years ago with instructions to dilute it to use.
http://www.beeworks.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=18

[randydrivesabus]

what does the label tell you? i tried googleing it but couldn't find it.

[Joseph Clemens]

Here ya go --- http://www.vita-europe.com/Map_enscript/frmbuilder.php?dateiname=%2Fen%2Fproducts%2Fb401.h tm

[drobbins]

Ross

somewhere I got the impression that after you spray it on it dries out and then it doesn't spoil
I believe once it's mixed up for application it goes bad in a couple days
I can't provide a source for where I got that idea:(

Dave

[Joseph Clemens]

Ross

somewhere I got the impression that after you spray it on it dries out and then it doesn't spoil
I believe once it's mixed up for application it goes bad in a couple days
I can't provide a source for where I got that idea:(

Dave
It's all in the link I provided in my previous post.

[Ross]

I still wonder why? I bet theirs is just a water solution as well.

[sc-bee]

I'm no chemist but somehow the solution is inoculated etc.. Mixing frees it up---you spry it on the comb and it sort of grows or feeds on the media.

[drobbins]

that raises another interesting question
does the stuff contain the bacteria or whatever it is, or just the protein that kills the moth larvae?
this would mean a lot in terms of how long it lasts
I'm under the impression it's just the protein but I've used both Certan and Xentari and may have details confused

Dave

[Joseph Clemens]

Perhaps in the concentrated form, the product is indifferent to degradation by potentially disassembling microorganisms, but when diluted may thereby become vulnerable to said degradation, yet when quickly becoming, again, concentrated, vis a vis, dried out, it possibly regains the ability to resist degradation.There was mention in the application instructions, that drying after application would help prevent the product from molding.

[drobbins]

Joseph

do you think Certan contains the bacteria or just the toxic protein it produces?
if it contains the bacteria it might persist in the combs and not need repeated applications every year
I'm under the impression (don't trust me on this) that Xentari contins the protein, which requires re-application

Dave

[iddee]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding was it contains spores. When the spores are in a moist medium, such as the gut of a larva, they "hatch?"
Then they eat the larva from the inside out, and produce more spores when the larva dies, thus renewing the effectiveness for the future.

If they are in water for 3 or 4 days, they "hatch?" and die from lack of food.
The xentari smells like rotten meat after being mixed in water for a week or two.

[Joseph Clemens]

This is in the product description on the mfgs. website.
B 401 is made of spores from Bacillus thuringiensis and must be diluted in water to 5% (i.e. 1 volume of B 401 for 19 volumes of water).The Xentari label says (somewhat paraphrased): ACTIVE INGREDIENT - active toxin(s) . . . . 10.3% w/w
INERT INGREDIENTS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .89.7% w/w

[Tia]

Well, it doesn't smell bad at all; as a matter of fact, it smells like good, clean dirt! I've looked at the label on the bottle and it's all in German except for a piece of paper wrapped around it and held in place by an elastic band. The paper has the instructions/proportions listed on it and that's it. Nothing about shelf life, mixed or not mixed!

[Ross]

I'm just your basic skeptic:). Seems like dusting with dry powder would be appropiate if it's spores.

[iddee]

Ross, dusting might work if you could find a way to spread a teaspoon equally over 50 frames or so, as you can when spraying a liter of the mixed liquid.

[Joseph Clemens]

It's the B 401 that contains the spores, and it's a concentrated liquid product. The Xantari is in powder form and it only contains the concentrated toxins.

[Ross]

That's good information. Thanks

[Joseph Clemens]

Just guessing, but that's probably why the Xentari has a much longer shelf life, the toxins are probably much more stable, whereas the spores would need to remain viable.