Fumagilin-B [Archive] - Beesource Beekeeping Forums

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Trevor Mansell
07-19-2008, 11:55 AM
I am going to be checking for Nosema here pretty soon ( thank you Sheri for showing me how). I wanted to get some Ideas on ways to apply Fumagilin-B ,in the event that I find something. I dont use division board feeders so it would have to be in a trickle method or a patty form. Just looking to get some ideas.

papar
07-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Contact medvet, the makers of fumigilan-b, they can advise you on some options for treating. How are you checking for nosema?

JordanM
07-19-2008, 04:59 PM
I would also like to know how to check for nosema?

Keith Jarrett
07-19-2008, 06:36 PM
I would also like to know how to check for nosema?

OK then,

First get sample of bees, to get a sample, grab "field force" only in the middle of the day. Put the bees into a bottle of rubbing alcohol (70% / 90% isopropyl).

Now get a 400 power scope.

To get the right ratio ( ten bees=1ml water) and grid up.

Make a wet slide there should no more than twenty five spores per veiwing, 25= 1,000,000 spore count per bee.

JordanM
07-19-2008, 07:16 PM
I think ill stick to sending a sample to the beetlesville lab.

Keith Jarrett
07-19-2008, 07:31 PM
JM,

it only takes five minutes or so, once you get the hang of it, it's as easy as tying your shoes.

Trevor Mansell
07-19-2008, 11:26 PM
Contact medvet, the makers of fumigilan-b, they can advise you on some options for treating. How are you checking for nosema?

Im going to be testing the same way Keith advised.

JordanM
07-20-2008, 09:20 AM
But i still dont have a powerscope.

Trevor Mansell
07-20-2008, 09:38 AM
If you go to Randy Olivers web site http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com//index.php . He has detailed instructions as well as where to get the scope.

JohnK and Sheri
07-20-2008, 09:45 AM
Im going to be testing the same way Keith advised.
Hi Trevor
So, you got a scope?
Sheri

JohnK and Sheri
07-20-2008, 09:49 AM
Just a heads up for those wanting Fumidil this fall, better get your orders in, there is already a 2 week waiting list at some places, and the rush isn't on yet....
Sheri

Matt Beekman
07-20-2008, 10:55 AM
Has anyone tried Honey B Healthy? I have heard that it helps with nosema ceranae.

Ian
07-20-2008, 11:12 AM
>>some Ideas on ways to apply Fumagilin-B

I apply it to my wintering hives in suirp, through my regular feeding program. I pre mix the powder into my surip tank, as I am filling it, to the prescribed amount and feed it with my hive top feeders.

I dont feed it in the spring this way, I am afraid of residue problems associated with this. If I were going to feed inthe spring, it would have to be with a smaller feeder, and a smaller amount to make sure the bees consumed it ALL, and left nothing in storage. I know some guys here that will trickle their spring time hives, they call it a "cup of soup" treatment.

I dont beleive I have ever heard of feeding this in patty form,

Ian
07-20-2008, 11:18 AM
>>Honey B Healthy

I wish there was some actual independant studdy on this,
The fellow who sells this stuff, forget his name, said straight out there was nothing tested to prove his findings. I give him credit for outright saying that. I realize the costs involved in such studdies, but really, if someone is going to sell a product across the country, potentially makeing profits off the product, why not prove the findings with studdy, and relieve all that grey questionable area?

JordanM
07-20-2008, 12:27 PM
I got my fumaglin B last week from Mann Lake, so they must not be out yet, and i aslo plan on feeding it to my bees in a syrup in the fall.

JohnK and Sheri
07-20-2008, 12:51 PM
As for HBH, I seem to remember there was a study showing Nosema C control with a long term program of regular HBH use. Perhaps it helps boost the immune system or creates a negative hive environment for Nosema C. Someone with a better memory might elaborate on this?
Sheri

high rate of speed
07-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Sheri the H-B-H,I believe just helps take the stress factor out of the hive,we sell it.But we are still going to rotate between fumidal and H-B-H.

Keith Jarrett
07-20-2008, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=Ian;336384I dont beleive I have ever heard of feeding this in patty form,[/QUOTE]

That's because you haven't had the best. That's for the guy up in PA.:)

JohnK and Sheri
07-20-2008, 01:31 PM
Keith, don't start! :D

Are you saying you are putting Fumidil in your patties? We have thought about doing that, with the logic of "as long they end up eating it what difference would it make how they get it in them?"
It would sure make it easier in Calfironia when they don't need the syrup and we are putting the patties to them anyway.
Sheri
I was going to correct the spelling of "California" but I like it....I'm gonna leave it.

Keith Jarrett
07-20-2008, 01:58 PM
Keith, don't start! :D.

Ahh party poopers. lol :)

Sheri, I was referring to HBH, I miss quoted Ian.

BTW, we also put it in our mite med, but we use our own HBH receipe.

HRS, that should help you, with your queen loss, but really, selling that stuff for $500 when you can make it for $20, how does Lonnie say it" thats highway robbery". LOL yes it is.

high rate of speed
07-20-2008, 02:05 PM
What isnt highway robbery when it comes to bees.like you said a gallons worth here and there,adds up way to fast.
Yes sheri customers are making grease patties from H-B-H,still up in the air,i personally think it might break down to fast.

Keith Jarrett
07-20-2008, 02:17 PM
What isnt highway robbery when it comes to bees..

Summer pollination.

high rate of speed
07-20-2008, 02:31 PM
Ya ok.:)

John Lockhart
07-23-2008, 08:45 PM
As far as HBH for nosema control, I was at the summer meeting of the Colorado beeks and the guest speaker was Dr. Frank Eischen from the Weslaco bee lab. They just finished a nosema study they are getting ready to publish. They fed bees with fumidel and HBH and found that the HBH was just as good at controling nosema as the fumidel. He said they were in shock! He said he was sure it would not work when the study started, and now is convinced it is a good alternitive to fumidel. They did not try it in a mega-dose like some guys are doing, buy just fed it in syrup. I am putting a bunch of it in my patties, and the bees just love it.

alpha6
07-23-2008, 08:54 PM
John is right. The studies actually showed that hives feed 1 to 1 and HBH were slightly stronger then those fed 1 to 1 with F-B. The study was pretty extensive and though he wouldn't come out and say that F-B didn't give any better results (because they funded part of the study) the data tables were on the screen and they were pretty definitive.

JohnK and Sheri
07-23-2008, 09:26 PM
HMMM, interesting about that HBH study. Any idea when and where it will be published? How long was the study? Didn't someone (Randy O maybe?) have a study showing no short term benefit? That Fumigilin is pretty pricey stuff, a cheap alternative would sure be nice.
Sheri

pahvantpiper
07-24-2008, 08:17 AM
"HRS, that should help you, with your queen loss, but really, selling that stuff for $500 when you can make it for $20, how does Lonnie say it" thats highway robbery". LOL yes it is."

Keith,
Are you saying you can make it for $20 as opposed to $500? Seems like when I priced the essential oils used in making HBH they were extremely expensive in and of themselves.

BTW, I fed quite a bit of HBH this spring and my bees look better than they ever have. Can't know for sure if it's all the HBH but, my gut tells me it helped.

alpha6
07-24-2008, 08:23 AM
Sheri,

If you want to save even more money then you can make your own HBH, its pretty simple and if you are running commercial hives and use alot it will save you mucho dinero.


I will try and find the study and post a link to it. It should be out there....it was a nice powerpoint and clearly showed that the colonies using HBH and 1 to 1 did slightly better then with F-B. I wish I had more specifics...I will find them.

JohnK and Sheri
07-24-2008, 09:03 AM
Sheri,If you want to save even more money then you can make your own HBH,
Yes, we make our own. Can't afford all those store bought concoctions.:D



I will try and find the study and post a link to it.
I would appreciate the link, thanks.
Sheri

Jim Fischer
07-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Did Frank's presentation clearly explain if the controls were fed
at all?

Feeding either HBH or fumagillin requires one to feed, and in
many cases, mild Nosema problems certain can be cured'
with simple feeding of nothing more than 1:1 sugar syrup.

So, if controls were "fed", and test subjects were fed
one thing or the other or both, then I'll buy the results.

But if controls were NOT fed at all, then the secret
ingredient here might simply be the feeding itself.

alpha6
07-25-2008, 08:09 AM
Jim,

You are right about just feeding 1 to 1 to cure Nosema. I have done it and know it can work. I can't remember if the controls were fed just 1 to 1 or nothing. I am working on finding the study, but won't have time to really search till this weekend.

sqkcrk
07-25-2008, 08:43 AM
Nic Calderone "reported" at last weeks ESHPA summer picnic that in Spain folks are finding good results treating Nosema Cerana w/ twice the dosage of Fumadil. I think that that's twice the concentration, but I'm not sure.

Let's say you have a high nosema spore count, say in June. How long before the colony dies? Or will it just be a contributing factor to winterloss due to stress? Is the expense of time and material worth the treatment?

Keith Jarrett
07-25-2008, 12:39 PM
[QUOTE=pahvantpiper;337706
Keith,
Are you saying you can make it for $20 as opposed to $500? Seems like when I priced the essential oils used in making HBH they were extremely expensive in and of themselves. .[/QUOTE]


Well Rob, You should be able to buy essentials oils for around $1.00-1.20/oz. Lemon,spearmint oils ect... goes a long ways.

alpha6
07-25-2008, 01:26 PM
I am saying I can make it a lot cheaper. You don't need much, I know what the concentration is (can't say that about HBH) and I know the purity.

Here is a link that has been pretty good for me getting quality stuff.

http://www.worldclassnutrition.com/lemongrass.html

Ian
07-26-2008, 11:11 AM
>>I will try and find the study and post a link to it. It should be out there

A beekeepers test trial here, and another test trial there doesnt cut it for providing the information needed to prove the products claims.
there is alot of snake oil out there, we have to make sure that the products that are being sold actually hold up to the claims being made.
This fellow presented himself very professionally, and to give him credit, didnt beat around the bush about selling an unproven product. He was also making claims of not only eliminating Nosema, both types, but also reducing v and t mite infestation. He provided reasons how it worked, but again, nothing to prove it!
Now I can buy this stuff, or even make my own, but frankly I dont have the time or money to be investing into a product that might or might not work. There is channels where these kind of products get tested. Why dont they just spend the money, get it tested, back thier claims and get on with thier business.
I mean the potential of pay back on this product IS there, especially if it cures all it is claimed to.

high rate of speed
07-26-2008, 12:08 PM
We will never have a positive answer on anything.Trials and tribulation,the life of a beekeeper isnt it great.:D

Ian
07-26-2008, 05:37 PM
>>We will never have a positive answer on anything

A business always has to run its affairs in a critical manner, our bottom line determines wheather or not we stay in business or not,

There might be something behind HBH, probably works as its claimed. But right now it falls into the same catigory as all those other treatments, alternative and "natural" type.

You know that cyclone that is advertised in the ABJ? Big page ad, a whole load of claims made. Pretty much cleans up everything in our hives.
Our guys here tested that product, and it showed no results, period.
I am thinking a whole lot of advertising is making thier sales, no studdy, no science. Just a whole lot of hype.

Can you afford to get caught up in it all?

Matt Beekman
07-26-2008, 07:09 PM
Previouse post make a good point about how the producer should step up and back up claims with hard facts and cite specific studies. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that for HBH to market the product as a treatment there will be a whole different set of bureaucratic procedures to get approved before it can get it to market. Legally, it is marketed as an attractant which is a lot easier to comply with the regs. Is it better to have it now; or wait until they get approval? I don't know until I can read Frank's study. But is it snake oil? Probably not. Will it solve all of our problems? Probably not. Is it another tool to maintain healthy bees? Quite possibly.

Keith Jarrett
07-26-2008, 07:49 PM
HBH has many advantages,

I do, put it in formic acid which lower's queen loss, as a uptake for syrup, and one of the first that I know of to commercialy use it in pollen sub.

Also, Frank is not the only one testing at this time.:)

Nick Noyes
07-27-2008, 08:45 AM
We fed HBH this spring and were happy with the results. We are going to feed it this fall on a large scale. We can't afford to wait for science.
However I do appreciate the work all the people in the research field are putting towards our problems.
I would be interested in a recipe on a home concoction. What does one use for an emulsifier?

Chef Isaac
07-27-2008, 10:44 AM
Nick:

Lecathin granulers work great.

Ian
07-27-2008, 05:29 PM
>>We fed HBH this spring and were happy with the results.

Were the results simular to what it claims?
ELIMINATION of Nosema, and t mites,
Increased control of v mites,
increased uptake of surip,

Nick Noyes
07-27-2008, 06:21 PM
The results were big happy productive bees.
Well the happy part might be stretching it but it seemed to shine them up.
I never heard it helped with varroa or trachea mites.
They definately like it they will rob if your not careful.

Ian
07-28-2008, 04:19 PM
>>I never heard it helped with varroa or trachea mites.


The fellow claimed it agrivated the bees, becasue of some kind of oil added (forget the name) that also caused the bees to consume the surip better. It casued grooming and therefore eliminated the t mite infestation in his hives and greatly reduced the v mite population.
But here and again it all sounds great, but nothing to back up his claims,

BEES4U
07-28-2008, 09:56 PM
Here is one answer:
Lecithin is an emulsifier, or mixing agent, that helps fat and water stay together.
Lecithin is present in egg yolks and milk; it aids mixing in mayonnaise ...

http://www.soaperschoice.com/soapoils/lecithin.html


http://search.rr.com/search?qs=lecithin%20as%20an%20emulsifier&source=web&safe=null&lr=null&start=1&num=10&channelId=&clientId=aol-rr&pd=yes
Regards,
Ernie

BEES4U
07-28-2008, 10:04 PM
Wintersun Chemical is one of the leading international manufacturer and supplier of the chemical raw materials, pharmaceutical ingredients, intermediates and food additives in the United States. It is incorporated in the state of California in 1997 with headquarter located in Ontario, Southern California.
http://www.wintersunchem.com/

Regards,
Ernie

megank
07-29-2008, 02:29 AM
As for finding a microscope..you can always go to your local high school or community college

Simply ask them and they will let you use it...or if you live near a CC, just walk in the Biology center...they usually have several out for students to use.