foundation less frames [Archive] - Beesource Beekeeping Forums

ealldredge

06-10-2008, 11:10 AM

I've read the many passionate posts each claiming one method superior to another and decided to play around a bit: I'm new to this and figure it's the quickest way to sort 'my way' from the many opinions.

I'm using wood frames w/wax coated plastic foundation because that was the first recommendation I got. Later, I read about foundationless frames about the time my 1st package bees had built comb in half of a single brood box. There were some nicely drawn foundation frames but mostly comb in the spaces between frames and avoiding sections of the provided foundation un-touched. Lesson here is these bees on that day in that box with that queen, with the weather at that time etc, etc, etc. prefer to build in the empty space. Notice the many contributing factors which the following test certainly doesn't delineate.

So I removed the foundation from a single frame to see what happens. They built nice, straight comb on the foundationless frame fully drawn in a week. At the same time, they continued working the foundation frames although they were not drawn very symmetrically and had interesting patterns around the edges.

What's the lesson? They will work with what they have, but prefer to do what they want, which is build comb they way they have for centuries, in a cavity.

If that doesn't work for you because you need a sturdy frame that is re-usable and won't fall apart in an extractor, then you should give them equipment towards that end. For me, for now, I'll give them some of each and see what they want and tailor my harvesting to what they do. It's easy when you've only got 1 hive and are not invested in lots of equipment. Different story if you're trying to sell lots of honey or transport bees on sturdy comb.

Sorry this got long and no doubt others will come to a different conclusion. It's just me trying to find 'my way'.

dug_6238

06-10-2008, 11:26 AM

I'm having amazingly good results right now with popscicle sticks. Two hives at my home location are drawing virtually perfect natural comb, with cell-size consistency much better than what I expected. I go out every couple days and put a new empty frame in the middle of the brood nest, and gradually work the old frames outward and upward. I'm really really happy with how well this is going.

Let me qualify a few things:
1) I'm regressing both hives at this site. I'm keeping no unregressing hives at this site.
2) I've had a good flow on for quite a while. It is still early in teh year here. Clover is just barely starting. There has been absolutely no dearth here.
3) I don't expect them to drawn small/consistent cells all summer. I'd expect they'll start making drone comb at some point.
4) Both these hives are smaller colonies, but are growing. The bigger doesn't have the whole top box fully filled (but they are close). This hive was hit by a bear earlier this year and have had to work to recover.
5) I AM cycling the 5.4 out of the hive slowly.
6) Yes, I guess this is turning into a small cell/regression post.
7) I am using deeps for hive bodies.
8) I put a white flat push-pin in the top of each foundationless frame. This helps identify those frames later.
9) I did have a few frames early on that weren't consistent in cell size. These frames were not started in the abosulte middle of the brood nest. I culled out the larger cells and re-used. They were repaired quite nicely.
10) Location location location! Must start from the middle. One frame at a time has worked best for me.

***Ross' answer really is right on the mark. I think that ealldredge stuck the landing as well.

Dr.Wax

06-10-2008, 11:55 AM

Do you need some kind of starter strip or can you just use standard frames with no foundation?

riverrat

06-10-2008, 11:59 AM

Do you need some kind of starter strip or can you just use standard frames with no foundation?

you can use either a starter strip or staple a popsicle stick to the bottom of the top bar for a guide. Make sure your hive sets level and your frames pushed together or you may end up with a mess.

dug_6238

06-10-2008, 12:11 PM

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218196

Stapling them could work well. I didn't and just started my wedge bar nails at a slight angle to draw the wedge bar in tight. I haven't had a popsicle stick drop out yet. Staples are not a bad idea though - try it both ways and see which you like better. Riverrat couldn't be more right - level (side to side) is crucial.

Good luck!

IndianaHoney

06-11-2008, 12:50 AM

I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I'd like to add a question to this. I've been told that when using foundationless frames, the frames must run Norh/South. Is this true?

Hillbillynursery

06-11-2008, 01:31 AM

All My frames are now foundationless. They have saved my bees by slowly going to small cell sizes.

The North/South/East/West has made no difference. My hives face every direction and they all do about the same.

The best advice I got for anyone going foundationless is go slow. The first frame drawn is nearly always full of drone cells. Just slowly work this frame to an outer wall and leave it there until you have enough worker comb to fill the brood box and then move it up to the honey stores. Moving this drone comb up to quickly just causes the bees to draw more drone comb in the corners of each comb. I have even extracted a few foundationless frames. Just go slow and only with comb that has aged a bit. Do not trim the wax all the way off your cut honey combs(my cut honey goes in the jars). This way you can place them back in the hive a super at a time and still get good straight comb.

Later, John

Gene Weitzel

06-11-2008, 11:21 AM

I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I'd like to add a question to this. I've been told that when using foundationless frames, the frames must run Norh/South. Is this true?

My experience has been that direction is not a factor. The side to side levelness of the hive is probably most important. I cut a bevel on the top bars of all my frames which causes the bees to sort of "slide down" and festoon into the center of the frame. They rarely start the comb off center, but if the hive is not good and level side to side they get out of center as they draw it down and can end up attaching the sides and bottoms to the next frame. Putting the empty frames between fully drawn frames helps some but levelness is still important. Also if you put an empty foundationless frame in their honey storage area, put it between sealed frames or they many times will just draw the adjacent unsealed comb wider into the empty space.

IndianaHoney

06-11-2008, 12:16 PM

Thank you for the answers. That will save me lots of money in foundation :-)

Gene Weitzel

06-11-2008, 03:37 PM

Thank you for the answers. That will save me lots of money in foundation :-)

I bought 1 box of 50 sheets of SC foundation the first year I started beekeeping. Most of it sat on the shelf until it was so brittle that I gave it to my wife to melt into candles. I am up to nearly 100 hives now and have yet to buy another box of foundation. I do buy a few boxes of HSC per year because I like to keep 3 or 4 frames of HSC in each broodnest as a hedge against SHB. The SHB larvae can't tunnel through it like they can wax to get away from the bees. The bees seem to figure this out and will keep the SHB sequestered on the plastic comb.

msmithnewbee

06-13-2008, 07:24 AM

i was told your hive opening should be faceing south. not shure this is the first season with bees.

Hillbillynursery

06-13-2008, 01:41 PM

I actually prefer my hives facing south east. They warm up quicker of a morning and get to work sooner durning the cooler months(spring/fall). But if your location requires you to face your hive any other direction it will not hurt any thing. Feral hives opening point in every direction.

Jim Fischer

06-13-2008, 08:54 PM

Kinda funny about fondation...

In commercial beekeeping, even a few pennies saved across all one's
hives can be a significant savings, and any pennies saved go right to
the bottom line as profits.

Now, why is that that all the large professional commercial operations
use foundation?
Why don't they at least use empty frames in their brood chambers?

The answer is that any wax you give the bees is wax that they did
not have to make themselves, and making wax is a slow process for
anything but a newly-hived swarm.

No one has figured out how to convince bees that they have swarmed
in order to get that great comb-drawing action going. Someday, someone
will figure it out.

MichaelW

06-16-2008, 09:55 AM

I'm told they build faster combs on foundation less frames?
with side by side comparisons over 2 years with 30 beehives, I say no way, no how do they build faster without foundation, except possibly the very first few frames in a box when starting new splits. This would explain the apiary legend that "they build faster without foundation". People likely assume that if the first few frames seem faster, then overall their faster, but they are not. Investment in foundation is worth every penny, as hives take off when given foundation and flounder when you don't, when given time in side by side comparisons. Its easy to pick the foundationless hives out of my apiary, as they are the short ones.

Joseph Clemens

06-16-2008, 11:02 AM

An observation on foundation use:
When I began stimulative feeding the first week of January, this hive began to grow along with most that were being fed. It grew until its brood nest occupied most of two 8-frame, medium depth supers, then its queen began to falter, the bees attempted supersedure, but alas once the virgin queen, thus produced had emerged, both queens soon vanished - whereabouts unknown. Now I had a queenless/broodless colony I still wanted to save. Since there were so many bees, a nice strong honeyflow, and a colony in need of a new queen, I decided to "experiment". I moved the hive off to the side, placed an empty super in its place, then put seven new PF-120 frames (previously coated with extra beeswax) into the empty super, then in the middle I placed another PF-120 frame (this one already drawn) containing eggs and young larvae from a colony with a nice mother queen - for the queenless bees to raise themselves a queen from. I then shook the bees from their old equipment into this new super. In less than a week several queen cells were built, the seven new PF-120's were all drawn into comb and most were already nearly filled with nectar and some pollen. I kept watching and by the time there was a nice young virgin queen, the combs were nearly all filled with capped honey or pollen (absolutely no place for a new queen to lay), so once again I moved the colony off to the side and placed an empty super in its place. I then put two frames, almost solid with pollen on each of the outer sides of the new super, placed the frame with the virgin queen on it (the only frame with a palm size area of empty cells on one side) in the center, filled in with more new PF-120's coated with extra beeswax, then shook the remainder of the colony into the new super. Again, they soon had drawn out comb on the new foundation and filled it with nectar and pollen. But by this time the new queen had mated and started laying, but she was slow to start and only managed to fill one comb with eggs/brood before being blocked, all the other combs were filled with honey, nectar, or pollen. So this time I moved over a few combs of emerging brood from other hives, placing them adjacent to the one comb of brood already in the hive and again more new PF-120's, while moving the frames filled with honey and nectar up into another super, leaving combs of pollen towards the outside of the bottom super. Finally, mission accomplished.

Though I use some foundationless frames, some wooden frames with foundation, some one piece plastic frame/foundation units. So far, I must agree with MichaelW and Jim Fischer. Though a hive, during a strong honeyflow, will often draw a few foundationless frames into comb - almost overnight. That's nothing compared to what they can do with a super filled with frames of foundation. Of course, given the above mentioned experience, sometimes, perhaps foundation can provide too much help, depending on the circumstances.

Ross

06-16-2008, 11:40 AM

In side by side observation on 50 hives for 5 years, I would say that foundationless is the absolutely fastest way to get frames drawn. Wax foundation is a distant second, and plastic foundation isn't even in the race. I had hives side by side with my mentor this year. I pulled multiple capped supers per hive, he had nothing capped and only partially drawn out. That's just my experience. Your milage may vary....

Does anybody believe the foundation makers are testing wax for accumulated pesticides?

beemandan

06-16-2008, 12:29 PM

Does anybody believe the foundation makers are testing wax for accumulated pesticides?

I don't doubt that they're testing them. I just don't think they can do anything about the results.

sc-bee

06-16-2008, 02:11 PM

>Yes, I guess this is turning into a small cell/regression post.>

Remember foundationless and small cell are two different things. Cell size will vary with foundationless (natural cell) as it does in the wild!

beemandan

06-16-2008, 02:25 PM

Remember foundationless and small cell are two different things. Cell size will vary with foundationless (natural cell) as it does in the wild!

Indeed. I put out about a hundred foundationless frames this season as a test. Some went into the center of already 'regressed' hives, between frames of drawn 4.9 foundation. I have yet to see a single cluster of cells smaller than 5.1mm.

dug_6238

06-16-2008, 09:53 PM

They're making what they feel is needed at that time. If they're building it bigger than the majority of the brood cells, it's a good chance they're building it for uses other than brood raising. At least that seems to be the result I see from my hives. I'm still sticking to my guns in saying that mine are gradully getting smaller as I move more frames outward and upward, get rid of the old larger cell frames, and place more empty frames in the middle.

If one keeps doing this over a decent period of time and the results are positive, the net result does end up being regression - each following iteration should produce smaller average cell sizes, if done from the middle out. Maybe I'm at a different timeframe here in this area thatn some of you are. As I said in my post it's still going well here. Perhaps this 'season' may peter out soon if some of yours have, I'll just hope for now that it keeps going for a little while. Note: I'm not feeding any of these colonies.

beemandan

06-17-2008, 07:10 AM

They're making what they feel is needed at that time. If they're building it bigger than the majority of the brood cells, it's a good chance they're building it for uses other than brood raising.
I'm sure that they're making what they feel is needed at that time. In my case, earlier in the season, most of the foundationless frames placed near the middle of the brood nest, between drawn brood frames, were drawn out almost entirely as drone cells. They then started to raise loads of drone brood. While that may be what they wanted it was neither in my best interests nor theirs. In prevarroa times, in feral nests it might have been a different story.

If one keeps doing this over a decent period of time and the results are positive, the net result does end up being regression - each following iteration should produce smaller average cell sizes, if done from the middle out.
Last year I saw brood cell samples from well over a hundred removals. Like it or not many were well established feral colonies. About 1% were smaller than 5mm.

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

MichaelW

06-17-2008, 07:27 AM

What all individuals in a species group "wants" is to spread their genes out into the population to the maximum amount possible. In this case the individual is the hive. They can do this by swarming or by raising drones and spreading their 'seed' that way. A colony can only issue a few swarms a year, but they can issue thousands of drones that have the potential to spread their genetics around. Its all very natural and the way things work. If that has advantages to beekeepers or bees probably depends on whether or not your rearing queens and if you are aggressively culling out the genes you don't want within a 5 mile radius.

beemandan

06-17-2008, 08:01 AM

If that has advantages to beekeepers or bees probably depends on whether or not your rearing queens and if you are aggressively culling out the genes you don't want within a 5 mile radius.
Also, don't forget the varroa factor. Varroa mites multiply much more successfully on drone brood. So if you're not rearing queens, then excessive drones are just bad news.

deknow

06-17-2008, 08:04 AM

Does anybody believe the foundation makers are testing wax for accumulated pesticides?

i have no idea what foundation makers do, but penn state has been testing foundation.

as of march 8, they had tested 5 samples from 5 different suppliers (a very small sample). all 5 samples had fluvalinate and coumaphos. see the "maryann frazier video" on our website:
http://www.BeeUntoOthers.com/

deknow

Ross

06-17-2008, 09:35 AM

dug_6238

06-17-2008, 11:59 AM

If feral colonies are successful at 5 and 5.1, what makes you think that your own colonies won't be successful at that size. I haven't treated in years, nor lost a colony to varroa in that time, and all of mine are on natural cell size. Forcing them to 4.9 sounds like the same logic that got us to 5.4. As to drawing drone, they only do a frame or so of that. You just move it out of the way and they are happy. I don't see excessive drone rearing in my hives. Mountains out of mole hills mostly.

Ross, I don't think that I would argue against what you're saying. Mine are not at 4.9 and I don't think that what I'm doing would qualify for 'forcing'. I do also need to qualify that I'm not using foundation, so I' sticking to my guns (and the original post gearing) - this was all pointed toward foundationless. I think my number 6 might have been misinterpreted as more than just a light attempt at humor. I don't think anyone here's saying to force them down onto 4.9, or 4.8, or 4.7... I just wanted to put a little something in there for the folks that roll their eyes when they see anything other than "You've got to put them on foundation becuase that's the way my pappy did it and it worked for him for years." :) Hopefully most folks at least consider using a separate drone comb too and removing or freezing it...that should also be separate from their comb building strategy. I'm still mostly agreeing with you and sc-bee, I think we got hung up on splitting hairs, and maybe the wrong hairs. I don't think any of us are really that far off the mark. Most sound like they're letting nature take it's course.

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

Now there's a guy who got cut off on the way to work. ;)

Ross

06-17-2008, 12:20 PM

We're all friends here. We all have opinions and aren't shy about expressing them. I come off as harsh sometimes when I don't really mean to. I just want people to think outside the box and try some new things.

beemandan

06-17-2008, 12:58 PM

Keep dreaming. But PLEASE don't try to infect new beekeepers with your fantasies.

Now there's a guy who got cut off on the way to work. ;)

Not at all. Debates or disagreements of this type don’t really upset me. I will have to admit that I find myself annoyed by the small cell crowd telling new beekeepers how simple it is to put their bees on sc. Just drop them onto 4.9 foundation and don’t treat. That’s all you need to do. Used to be the mantra. Now some are acknowledging that it may not be that simple. I’ve been there and done that and I believe that they’ve likely frustrated many a new beekeeper out of an otherwise rewarding hobby.

dug_6238

06-17-2008, 01:38 PM

...I will have to admit that I find myself annoyed by the small cell crowd telling new beekeepers how simple it is to put their bees on sc. Just drop them onto 4.9 foundation and don’t treat. That’s all you need to do. ...

Wow, I don't remember saying that. I'm positive this post was about "foundationless". You've assumed the part about foundation.

beemandan

06-17-2008, 02:00 PM

Wow, I don't remember saying that. I'm positive this post was about "foundationless". You've assumed the part about foundation.

Actually my main response was to the term 'regressing' which is generally used by the small cell crowd. I just guessed that you were a small cell guy (girl?) My apologies if I was mistaken and you are upset.
You suggested that by inserting foundationless frames in the brood nest you'd see regression over time. I don't believe it.
I suggested that you keep on dreaming.
Then you indicated that you thought my tone was angry.....'got cut off on the way to work' + a smiley face.
My comments about small cell foundation was only in explanation of why I found it troubling that the small cell folks were misleading new beeks. Didn't have a thing to do with the overall thread.
Make sense?????

dug_6238

06-17-2008, 02:12 PM

Dan, so little of what you say makes sense, but that's ok. We're pretty simple folk here. :) The fact that it doesn't work for you is in no way a reflection on you. I never said you sounded angry.

I'm not sure what's up with my cells. Maybe some of them are shrinking. I tried looking on a few websites, but I wasn't able to find anyone else who has run into this shrinking cell phenomenon.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I don't know what else is up, but I hope your day gets better, and soon.

beemandan

06-17-2008, 02:43 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
???????

I don't know what else is up, but I hope your day gets better, and soon.
Its been a great day so far. So, thanks for the thought. Same to ya....

Michael Bush

06-18-2008, 03:10 PM

>does any one have any experience with foundation less frames apposed to pre waxed foundation?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

> I'm told they build faster combs on foundation less frames?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#setback

>I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I'd like to add a question to this. I've been told that when using foundationless frames, the frames must run Norh/South. Is this true?

I've seen no difference.

RickyRicardo

06-25-2008, 08:23 AM

Hey Guys,

I got a new nuc from a local Bee Keeper and started a new hive with foundation less frames. Intergrating the 5 frames with foundation. It is going rather well, I have straight combs and good attachments and they even filled a few frames with attachments on all four side. the thing is whereever I had the old foundation frames beside an empty frame, they double the thickness of the comb!

Thats particularly worse where they decided to put honey (corners and side of frames) whereas sections of brood stayed shalower.

What do I do with that? do I shave off thicker part? Remove those frames?

Looking for advice

dug_6238

06-25-2008, 10:33 AM

I've had better results and gotten around that (yes I had one that way early on) by working in the foundationeless frames one at a time in the middle. The fat frame got shaved down - put it next to a drawn comb and it'll work itself out nicely.

Long story made short - shave the fat frames. Try to work them into a slot where they're beside another frame that's already drawn. They'll even them up to match pretty evenly. Scratch the cappings (if there are honey cappings) at the tops of the thin ones. Try if you can to add foundationless one at a time in the middle betweeb two drawn or mostly drawn combs (between capped is absolurtely the best, and yeilds the best results). This is the way in which I was able to get it to work the best for me. By doing this you establish the outer bounds for how wide they'll drawn the new comb. One slot for building of a foundationless comb seemed to work best for me - it focuses the bees building attention on that one frame, otherwise if you just alternate a lot of empty frames in with your drawn frames, they seem to go into the mode of spending as much effort (or even more) extending the honey cap on the drawn frames as, where they should be focusing on drawing that new frame. Add a new empty frame in the middle once a week or so, and keep your eye on what kinds of cells they're building in it. Move the older frames outward and upward as you continue this schedule.

Hope this helps.

RickyRicardo

06-25-2008, 10:48 AM

Ok I will try that, I did it initially but that really sent the bees in a frenzy and I am not 100% comfortable yet so I figured I did something stupid LOL

Will post updates as I shave the 3 that have gone super size!

Ross

06-25-2008, 11:53 AM

You can simply move them to the outside wall of the hive and crowd them into the wall. The bees will rework them. They don't do that if you place your frames between capped comb or brood combs.

dug_6238

06-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Ross' method has the virtue of being simpler. I've done it that way too, and they shaved away somewhere between 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch.

I don't know how you have your frames layed out in your box, but you could actually try shaving a frame that doesn't have a lot of honey (safer if you're worried about honey dripping down the frame) and then also try placing one against the outer wall like Ross says. This does take a little time, but you might apprciate the results of comparing the two methods. I honestly can't say anything against that way other than 'time to complete', because when I tried it, I got good results from that as well, it just took longer for them to shorten the cells.

Ross

06-25-2008, 02:39 PM

The other option is to move them into a 8 or 9 frame super where you want fat combs.

RickyRicardo

06-25-2008, 10:01 PM

Well I have 9 frames in my brood box and 8 in the super (10 frame box).

Just because I initially started with a feeder in the brood box that took a bit more than one frame space and now I am stuck with Thick, very thick or super size LOL

I shaved a section from one and put it against the side, even after shaving it touches the outer wall in two places (I hope I did not trap too many bees in the process) Looking forward to see if they move some of the honey and wax elsewhere.

Also, I realised my brood box is getting kind of honey bound so moved a frame full honey to the supper and put an empty frame.

Could not locate the queen though this time (she is not marked) but the hive was peaceful and busy and lots of caped cells, not as many brood as last time (dont ask for eggs I have not figured what they really look like yet). But I would say half as many larvae as last time.

Cheers

Michael Bush

07-02-2008, 07:51 AM

>the thing is whereever I had the old foundation frames beside an empty frame, they double the thickness of the comb!

That is what they typicall do if it's ucapped honey comb. They just make it thicker. If it's capped, it works fine to put them between. If it's brood it works fine. Irregular comb happens in all hives regardless of foundation or not. If you put foundation between drawn, ucapped honey comb you'll get the same results.

RickyRicardo

07-02-2008, 08:09 AM

Since its the first year of the hive, should I just let them do so and put fewer frames in the box? Rather than try to fight that? At the end of the day honey is honey and I am not planning to use any of it since they will need it...

Whats your views?

Michael Bush

07-02-2008, 08:55 AM

>Since its the first year of the hive, should I just let them do so and put fewer frames in the box?

That's what I'd do.

Hillbillynursery

07-07-2008, 05:51 PM

The bees do regress from the 5.4mm foundation size when you go foundationless. I have not tried to get a good average of the cell sizes. I do not have more drones than I did with foundation. I do know that when I first got the bees totally on foundationless that I was finding many 4.6mm cell sizes being used for worker brood. At the top of each frame was honey storage cells but the first few rows near the top of the frame being used for brood were 5.2mm. The average between 4.6 and 5.2 is 4.9. So I do believe I can call this a regression of cell sizes. But I have not had to treat for mites in 3 years which is the goal.

I do agree I made more honey with WAX foundation. The plastic foundation that came with my first hive purchased made me wish I never saw it. I may never try plastic foundation again. I have thought about using foundation in my supers. But I like the idea of not spending money. If I want more honey I will just set up another hive. I have my small farm of 5 acres, my dad's 50 acres, and the person who uses my bees as pollenators of 120 acres as perminate locations. So it is easy to expand.