View Full Version : Who needs the headache!
pcelar
06-07-2008, 08:18 AM
I had it enough with wooden frames and wax foundation.
I ordered my hives and 1st frames pre assembled and got horrible frames that are not square. Second frames I made square but foundation was too long so it bowed. Hell with this guesswork and assembling things from different manufactures that do not have exact specs. This reminds me of Windows! Nothing works in concert. Always a problem with some components. That's why I switched to Mac! Well, today I switched to Mac of frames!
Yesterday I ordered 2 boxes of Black Pierco Deep Frames and am planning to, gradually, replace all existing frames with these, and, order White Pierco Medium Frames for honey supers when I need them. :) Have a nice day fellow bee keepers! :)
Beorn
06-07-2008, 08:29 AM
pcelar, I understand your frustration. I had the same problem this year with the idea of going to small cell foundation. I found it very frustrating to get the stuff in right. But don't give up yet. This is my forth year with Pierco frames and I'm considering going to all wooden. I still have about 5 or 6 frames out of 40 that the bees refuse to draw out. And I understand that this is not uncommon. That isn't so good consdiering they suggest getting rid of foundation that is 5 years old. By the time they're done drawing it out, you have to change it.
iddee
06-07-2008, 09:24 AM
I use wood frames, all from one supplier.
I use all wax foundation, all from one supplier.
I ran a business for 20 plus years and learned early what customer loyalty could mean to both the supplier and the customer.
Those who hop from one supplier to another, trying to save a penny, usually lose dollars.
Who's taking bets as to how long it is before he switches back to wood and wax?
JPK1NH
06-07-2008, 09:35 AM
I use wood frames, all from one supplier.
I use all wax foundation, all from one supplier.
I ran a business for 20 plus years and learned early what customer loyalty could mean to both the supplier and the customer.
Those who hop from one supplier to another, trying to save a penny, usually lose dollars.
Who's taking bets as to how long it is before he switches back to wood and wax?
please help me understand why?
My two recently hived nucs appear to be happily drawing out the pierco frames I put in there for them....are mine the exception or do bees draw better on wood/wax foundation?
Jeffzhear
06-07-2008, 10:06 AM
I have bought new frames from both Kelly's and Dadant, with the vast majority from Dadant, since they are close. I am sure I have many from other manufacturers since I aquired many from my Dad and through the purchase of NUC's. I have never had a problem, maybe a frame that isn't quite square but the bees don't care, not that I can tell anyway.
A few of my plastic friends call me a stick in the mud, because I prefer wedge top wooden frames with wax foundation...but they work for me and the honeybees.:)
Use wooden frames and dump the foundation all together. The bees will be happier and it's cheaper.
dcross
06-07-2008, 04:07 PM
That isn't so good consdiering they suggest getting rid of foundation that is 5 years old.
You can keep and re-use plastic foundation, just have to get rid of the comb on it.
pcelar, you're going to run into two problems with the plastic frames, getting them to draw it, and the way they stick the frames together between boxes.
No matter what way you use, there is a drawback or two.
mlewis48
06-07-2008, 11:19 PM
I started out with plastic BUT was quick to change to wood and wax. By the time that you pay for plastic and pay for the wax to coat it with or if you have wax and take the time to put a coat of fresh wax on it, WHY??? I have plastic that is in a hive that has been in there for a season and they won't touch it. So, you have 2x'ss the work with no outcome. Dadant frames and foundation, You can't go wrong!
IndianaHoney
06-08-2008, 03:45 AM
I use Mann Lake frames with starter strips. Would like to switch get rid of the starter strips, but don't know how to do this without making a mess.
tecumseh
06-08-2008, 06:38 AM
what iddee said..
plus when or if you (I do hope you don't) get shb you will likely discover that all those little recesses in the plastic fares are quite handy loitering places for the little black devils.
Brent Bean
06-08-2008, 07:58 PM
Virtually all my frames are from Mann Lake with plastic foundation. I have not had any problems with there equipment even the grade two stuff.
pcelar
06-08-2008, 09:52 PM
Thank you all for your comments.
I have made this decision after I checked my bees with local commercial bee keeper, who told me, "this is the best way to go", holding in his hand one of pierco frames. He also added that those frames are best for his 70 frame radial extractor. They do not get stuck in the machines.
@Ross
<<Use wooden frames and dump the foundation all together. The bees will be happier and it's cheaper.>>
Perhaps, at the end, I'll end up there. :)
@iddee
I wish I pinched pennies! I spent around thousand dollars for my equipment. I ordered about 80% from Brushy Mtn. and 20% from Mann Lake. I wish I ordered everything from Mann Lake. Their stuff is good. Brushy's stuff is not so.
dragonfly
06-08-2008, 11:19 PM
I was very disappointed with pierco and went to all wood frames and wax foundation. Maybe my bees are just picky, but they don't like the plastic. I have a friend who is a beekeeper and she uses all Pierco, but like I said, my hive won't hardly use it.
shoefly
06-09-2008, 08:36 AM
what tecumseh said
Yes, that is true especially toward the top region of the plastic frames where the frames touch each other. If had my druthers with the design of plastic frames I would look at redesigning this area. There is no way for the bees to be hygienic with these recesses and they can only propolize the face leaving a breeding ground for whatever is inside the recess.
Yuleluder
06-09-2008, 08:53 AM
I have 832 Pierco frames en route to my operation. My operation only uses pierco. I like the idea of buying a frame that can be "recylced" every five years. Wood will not last near as long as plastic, the plastic frames top bars don't break loose like wood when prying from the hive. I can easily meltdown the wax on a plastic frame, and have it back in my operation. Unlike a wood frame with wax foundation, the plastic will save you money in the long term. Untop of that you get the plastic frame out the box and ready to go. No wasted time on assemby, which means more time managing your bees.
dcross
06-09-2008, 02:56 PM
Yes, that is true especially toward the top region of the plastic frames where the frames touch each other. If had my druthers with the design of plastic frames I would look at redesigning this area. There is no way for the bees to be hygienic with these recesses and they can only propolize the face leaving a breeding ground for whatever is inside the recess.
Pour some melted wax in while applying it to the foundation?
Wood will not last near as long as plastic
Oh please, you must be kidding.
the plastic will save you money in the long term.
Must be another joke.
riverrat
06-09-2008, 06:27 PM
I had it enough with wooden frames and wax foundation.
You may have creaated a bigger headache than you had before. I would much rather have an off square frame or bowed foundation. both of which is fixable. as opposed to the headache of trying to get the bees to draw out plastic when they dont want to.
Yuleluder
06-10-2008, 06:16 AM
Oh please, you must be kidding.
Well if your rotate out your old comb, like your suppose to plastic will definitely save you money, and last longer ;)
I can rotate out old comb by cutting it out in about 3 seconds and giving the frame back to the bees. I don't use foundation. The bees do the work. What's cheaper than that?
I wonder how many plastic fantastics will be around in 200 years. I know of a lot of wooden items that are doing well after 200 years.
pcelar
06-10-2008, 09:24 AM
I can rotate out old comb buy cutting it out in about 3 seconds and giving the frame back to the bees. I don't use foundation. The bees do the work. What's cheaper than that?
I wonder how many plastic fantastics will be around in 200 years. I know of a lot of wooden items that are doing well after 200 years.
I feel sorry I started this thread. I feel I am responsible for disturbance and making waves. :(
I feel there are probably two groups. One is for waxed plastic foundation and one is for wax foundation (third is for no foundation like Ross :) ).
But I have another problem. I just can not see eggs on wax foundation. I see capped brood in different colors of the waxed cap, I see coiled larvae, but I can not see eggs. Is there some trick to see them?
Also, I had waxed pierco foundation sheet which was given to me by afore mentioned commercial beekeeper. Yesterday I inserted it into one of my woden frames and sprayed it with sugar sol. and inserted it in between my wooden frames (as an experiment) to see if the bees will draw a wax on it. I am planning to check it on Friday. I'll let you know what happened. :)
Not to worry. We're all friends here, we just have hard heads and different experiences and ideas. It's friendly banter for the most part. :)
Spotting eggs can be difficult. I know exactly what to look for and still have trouble as my eyes age. I suggest a flashlight and a simple magnifier. Once you see it, you won't mistake it. Try these pictures....
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/eggs.jpg
As you can tell here, dark comb makes it easier to spot them.
pcelar
06-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Not to worry. We're all friends here, we just have hard heads and different experiences and ideas. It's friendly banter for the most part. :)
Spotting eggs can be difficult. I know exactly what to look for and still have trouble as my eyes age. I suggest a flashlight and a simple magnifier. Once you see it, you won't mistake it. Try these pictures....
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/eggs.jpg
As you can tell here, dark comb makes it easier to spot them.
Ross thanks for kind words and the pic. Yes, it is much easier to spot eggs on dark background. :)
ScadsOBees
06-10-2008, 12:44 PM
I can rotate out old comb by cutting it out in about 3 seconds and giving the frame back to the bees. I don't use foundation. The bees do the work. What's cheaper than that?
Three seconds? You have to cut it out? Those are the ones that I pull out of the hive to inspect and as I lift them up the comb promptly drops out in only 1.8 seconds!
Not really, but on a warm day it is something that I have to pay close attention to!
I've recently purchase a bunch of plastic frames, it was cheaper than wood+ foundation, and I've had good success with my other plastic frames. I contemplated wood + plastic but the $$$ won out.
The bees will draw anything fine during a flow if they don't have an option.
Rick