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GRIMBEE
06-06-2008, 07:42 AM
My apairy has a considerable amount of poison ivy growing in it and I was wondering if Something like "ROUNDUP" poison ivy killer would affect the bees? The ivy is about 4 feet from hives and I need to get rid of it before it takes over:mad:

iddee
06-06-2008, 08:08 AM
Poison Ivy is said to be one of the best honeys produced. Very clear and delicately mild.

PS. I don't react to it, so I don't mind having it around. :p :D

mike haney
06-06-2008, 08:11 AM
round-up will not harm bees. use it around my hives on poison ivy, honeysuckle,viginnia creaper,etc. good luck,mike

alpha6
06-06-2008, 08:27 AM
If you value your bees I wouldn't do it.

Read this article in full...I posted the link below but here are some excerpts.

"Many people will say they never use pesticides but do use an occasional weed killer. Yes, weed killers are still pesticides."

"On the other hand, many insecticides that drift onto blossoms are indeed toxic to pollinators. The worst are those that donít kill quickly and are carried back to hive where the contaminated nectar and pollen are fed to larvae and adults."

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080422/BLOG07/368625352

mike haney
06-06-2008, 08:59 AM
"So.... the bottom line is that there is no proof that these materials are contributing to the decline of honeybees in the U.S. or in our area in particular. Until there is considerably more funded research, we just don't have any data to implicate home lawn and garden products with our wide-scale honeybee decline at this time."
this is a direct quote from the linked article in the above post. the main thrust i got from the linked article was about improper use.

Black Creek
06-06-2008, 09:23 AM
there are organic defoliants available specifically targeting poison ivey. Horticultural grade vinegar will knock it out. I personally havent tried regular grocery store vinegar on it, but it does work on other weeds. use it on hot days. probably have to spray it every week or so to completely kill it.

alpha6
06-06-2008, 09:43 AM
Mike,

You want to spray this stuff near your bees go ahead. I personally wouldn't. There are other ways to get rid of the stuff. If you think its so safe take a swig. If it doesn't hurt you then I am sure it will be safe for your bees.

I am constantly amazed at people who do things that damage their bees and then fall back on well it can't be that cause there are no definitive studies. It's a poison, think about it.:rolleyes:

GRIMBEE
06-06-2008, 09:59 AM
I really would rather not use anything, I will use cedar mulch to try to keep it down. I am against spraying anything near my hives. The ivy is climbing the trees next to my hives and the vines on the ground are moving into the bee yard.
I don't have any reaction to it but my Friend and his sister live with me and they get it when they go in the yard:(

iddee
06-06-2008, 10:13 AM
If you don't react to it, why don't you just pull it up and dispose of it?

power napper
06-06-2008, 10:36 AM
Goats will eat it.

Bodo
06-06-2008, 11:22 AM
Alpha6,

Bees aren't weeds. Proper use (as directed on the label) is safe. If not, there would be warnings on the label.

Water is a poison, think about it ;-)

alpha6
06-06-2008, 12:42 PM
Warnings on the labels?? haha... Do you know how many medicines are pulled each year that were supposed to be "safe" and end up killing people.

Go ahead....spray your weeds...no skin off my teeth...it won't effect my hives. In the case of labeling...if you are using that stuff in the same place you keep your hives you should list it on your honey labels as it could be contaminating it.

Water is not poison btw. You can hypo hydrate in which the electrolytes and sodium balance is off in your body which can lead to death, but water in and of itself is not poison.

Tim Hall
06-06-2008, 12:43 PM
Goats will eat it! Concentrated horticultural vinegar knocks it back at the very least, and if feasible, a good dousing in boiling or very hot water will kill it (cooks the roots).

You would obviously have to have a safe heat source within reasonable distance of your beeyard. I killed out quite a bit this way one tea kettle at a time. Took a while to douse all of it, but it has not come back for two full seasons now.

All of that chemical trash is "safe" until some observant person determines it's not safe. ;)

BigDaddyDS
06-06-2008, 01:13 PM
Where's the data to back up the accusations that RoundUp is a "toxic pesticide"? RoundUp is a herbicide, to begin with. A bit of searching on the internet reveals a 1990 study that was done with honeybees in mind.

This article can be found here: http://www.biotech-info.net/glyphosate.html

To quote sections, "A field study was conducted to investigate the effects of aerial application on honey bee hives (Burgett and Fisher 1990). Bee hives and blooming vegetation in the immediate vicinity (1.5 acres) were treated at a rate of about 5% Roundup in 60 gal of water (6 lbs a.e./acre or 6.8 kg a.e./ha). No acute or chronic effects were observed for adult honey bees or for brood production. These findings were further supported by conducting direct feeding trials in the field. No effects were observed as a result of the direct addition of Roundup to the hives."

"Conclusion: Honey bees are not affected by glyphosate or Roundup formulations based on data from laboratory and field studies."

Keep in mind that the levels tested were at the recommended application rate, density and solution strength. Apply this (and all chemicals) at the recommended dosages.

Also, keep in mind that the carrier for RoundUp may act like a "soapy water" to bees, so direct application to them is ALSO not recommended!

DS

shawnwri
06-06-2008, 01:18 PM
Water is not poison btw. You can hypo hydrate in which the electrolytes and sodium balance is off in your body which can lead to death, but water in and of itself is not poison.

According to the Merriam-Webster definition of poison "1 a: a substance that through its chemical action usually kills, injures, or impairs an organism", water can be poison at a high enough dosage. Therefore water in and of itself is a poison.

Regarding glyphosate, spray it or not. It is an herbicide and targets the the enzyme 5-EPSP synthase that is involved in the formation of aromatic amino acids. This metabolic pathway is not found in animals which obtain aromatic amino acids through diet.

I have spent over 5 years in post-graduate studies in plant physiology, genetics, and weed science and I will spray glyphosate to kill poison ivy. Horticultural grade vineagar is typically 15% acetic acid unlike what you buy at the grocery store. It is a contact herbicide and has no residual and will not kill the root. Repeated applications are necessary to deplete the root system.

Poison ivy does have beautiful wood that can be used for small carvings if you can find a large enough vine.

alpha6
06-06-2008, 01:20 PM
Common Weed Killer (Roundup) Shows Evidence of
Environmental and Health Problems

SOURCE: Organic Gardening, July, 2000
See the complete article at the "Organic Gardening" web site

Thousands and thousands of acres in the United States are being sprayed annually with nearly 50 million pounds of Roundup, a broad-spectrum herbicide designed to kill any plant it hits, unless the plant has been genetically altered to tolerate the chemical. Roundup has accounted for half of Monsanto's corporate profits in recent years. Now the company has expanded its Roundup market by genetically engineering "Roundup Ready" soybeans, corn, and other crops. Monsanto's advertising campaigns have convinced many people that Roundup is safe, but the facts simply do not support that conclusion. Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals. Plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter. And although Monsanto claims that Roundup breaks down into harmless substances, it has been found to be extremely persistent, with residue absorbed by subsequent crops over a year after application. Roundup show adverse effects in all standard categories of toxicological testing, including medium-term toxicity, long-term toxicity, genetic damage, effects on reproduction, and carcinogenicity. Here is some of the research that demonstrates the ways that Roundup's active ingredient, glyphosate, adversely affects plants and animals:

In a study conducted by T.B. Moorman and colleagues at the USDA Southern Weed Science Laboratory in Stoneville, Mississippi, glyphosate reduced soybeans' and clover's ability to fix nitrogen. A study conducted by G.S. Johal and J.E. Rahe of the Center for Pest Management at Simon Frase University in Burnaby, British Columbia, found that glyphosate made bean plants more susceptible to disease. At Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, D. Estok and colleagues found that glyphosate reduces the growth of beneficial soil-dwelling mycorrhizal fungi. Moving up to mammals, sperm production in rabbits was diminished by 50 percent when they were exposed to glyphosate, in research conducted by M.I. Youset and colleagues at the University of Alexandria in Egypt and the University of Tromso in Norway. Brand-new evidence suggests that Roundup may cause cancer. The study, published in Environmental and Molecular Mutagenesis (vol. 31 pp. 55-59, 1998), found that an unidentified chemical in Roundup caused genetic damage in the livers and kidneys of mice exposed to the herbicide. The researchers believe additional experiments are needed to determine which chemical in the Roundup mixture is causing the damage. They point out that this will be very difficult because "the precise composition of the mixture...is not available due to protection by patent regulation." In other words, Monsanto doesn't have to reveal to the public exactly what chemicals are in Roundup. In California, where pesticide-related illness must be reported, Roundup's active ingredient (glyphosate) was the third most commonly reported cause of pesticide illness among agricultural workers, and the most common cause of pesticide illness in landscape workers. According to two New Zealand toxicologists, the symptoms experienced by workers exposed to Roundup included eye and skin irritation, headaches, nausea and heart palpitations.

d.asly
06-06-2008, 01:23 PM
i've heard that mountain folk in appalachia nibble on the very young leafs in the spring time to develop a resistance that lasts all season.

alpha6
06-06-2008, 01:26 PM
In the context of biology, poisons are substances that can cause damage, illness, or death to organisms, usually by chemical reaction or other activity on the molecular scale, when a sufficient quantity is absorbed by an organism. Legally and in hazardous chemical labelling, poisons are especially toxic substances; less toxic substances are labelled "harmful", "irritant", or not labelled at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison

Water is not classified as any of these. Water is not poison. :rolleyes:

shawnwri
06-06-2008, 01:29 PM
i've heard that mountain folk in appalachia nibble on the very young leafs in the spring time to develop a resistance that lasts all season.

Sure do.

Mike Gillmore
06-06-2008, 02:14 PM
I don't have any reaction to it but my Friend and his sister live with me and they get it when they go in the yard:(

They can also get it at home. If you're walking around in poison ivy at the yards you could inadvertently bring it home on your shoes and clothes. The oils from the leaves will remain volatile for long periods of time and could end up on your carpet, or practically anywhere in your home. One who is allergic to it can easily break out simply from contact with residue oils, they don't have to touch the plant leaves.

Be kind to your sister and your friend. Go to your yards late in the evening when all the bees are inside and spray the stuff. By morning it will be dried and absorbed into the plant and will pose no threat to the bees. Just don't spray when the poison ivy is blooming, and there will be no reason that a bee would come in contact with it. I've used it at one of my yards with a heavy ivy infestation and have seen no negative impact on the bees.

hankdog1
06-06-2008, 02:21 PM
See this is why i placed my hives on a large rock on the farm here nothing will grow there it's elevated from the land around it so no depressions and it's free of everything but being slick after it rains. Besides i'm with most of you on this there is no good herbicide. Heck i've seen people use these spike things on wild rose bushes kills everything in a 30 foot radious. That may of also been why they pulled it from the market. By the way they do have warnings on the labels maybe not about bees cause how many beekeepers are gonna use roundup around thier hive not many i would say.

Bodo
06-06-2008, 03:36 PM
Alpha, where in that post did it mention bees?

I failed to see it.

WannaBee
06-06-2008, 07:12 PM
The strongest apple cider vinegar you can find!! It will not harm you bees and will not kill your grass!! It will work on any broadleaf plant. We use this remedy on all of the weeds we have here. You can buy non-food grade vinegar.
Wannabee

alpha6
06-06-2008, 09:32 PM
Bodo,

Maybe its because you don't want to see it. "Independent scientific studies have shown that Roundup is toxic to earthworms, beneficial insects, birds and mammals. Plus it destroys the vegetation on which they depend for food and shelter." What is one of the most beneficial insects to agriculture? This is a tough one I know...but for your sake I will tell you. It's bees.

You can choose to ignore the facts but its pretty obvious it isn't something to be taken lightly. Like I said before, it won't effect my hives...do what you want.

Bodo
06-06-2008, 10:09 PM
it's all great to say studies have said this...show the studies?

alpha6
06-06-2008, 11:09 PM
I am not going to do your research for you. Good luck with your Round-up bees.

GRIMBEE
06-07-2008, 12:01 AM
WOW Touchy subject I don't plan on spraying anything I will pull it by hand and mulch the yard. I don't like any kinda sprays.

Ishi
06-07-2008, 12:49 AM
[

SOURCE: Organic Gardening, July, 2000
See the complete article at the "Organic Gardening" web site

First reason to be suspicious Organic same for the clams from the other end of the spectrum.

Better to spray RoundUp than lose a yard of bees to a grass fire

alpha6
06-07-2008, 06:42 AM
Ishi,

Round here we use a contraption called a lawn mower to cut our grass. :eek:

Scut Farkas
06-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Weed killers are NOT pesticides. They are by definition herbicides. Is it possible to be both, sure.


If you value your bees I wouldn't do it.

Read this article in full...I posted the link below but here are some excerpts.

"Many people will say they never use pesticides but do use an occasional weed killer. Yes, weed killers are still pesticides."

"On the other hand, many insecticides that drift onto blossoms are indeed toxic to pollinators. The worst are those that donít kill quickly and are carried back to hive where the contaminated nectar and pollen are fed to larvae and adults."

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080422/BLOG07/368625352

sentientsoil
06-07-2008, 09:33 AM
um... I believe an herbicide would fall under the umbrella term pesticide, wouldn't it? :rolleyes: seeing as any herb you'd want to kill would be considered a pest. herbicides, insecticides, fungicides... all of these are pesticides. at least, that was what the good ol' state of indiana wanted me to believe when I was getting my 3b certification for lawn care application of pesticides....

but then again, this is Indiana. we're backward folk, we are. :D

AltamontBee
06-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Chickens will eat poison ivy also.

Jennifer

GRIMBEE
06-07-2008, 11:49 AM
Goats and chickens are not an option. I live in the city and I consider myself lucky to have honeybees, I don't own, I rent. and have only a half acre for a backyard.
My neighbors are no problem thou, they like the honeybees around their apple and plum trees, and their flower gardens:D

dbest
06-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Round up works to kill poisen ivy. I add a teaspoon of dish soap for every 2 gallons. It cuts the oil on the ivy and makes it more effective. For any one that has more that 7 yards round up is a blessing. I spray every yard about a week before the hives get moved in. I also spray again mid summer.

Ishi
06-08-2008, 12:51 AM
Ishi,

Round here we use a contraption called a lawn mower to cut our grass. :eek:

Around here you need mineral earth about 30 feet around your hives. 2 years ago a BK Employee started a fire and burnt down most of a small town plus over 15000 acres. Bill for fire suppression 1M plus all the structures.

naturebee
06-08-2008, 07:41 AM
Did another bee tree last evening.
Bee trees and poison ivy run hand in hand in my area.
This bee tree, had poison ivy growing all around it.
Most of it had been removed at the time of this picture:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n237/FeralBeeProject/DCP_2260.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n237/FeralBeeProject/DCP_2262.jpg

Joe
Feralbeeproject.com

alpha6
06-08-2008, 08:02 AM
You Nor Easters got it made. Bees and a load of wood at the same time....Christmas come early.